Fifth Generation of Warfare (5GW) is "indistinguishable from magic"

[c1ue]

Re: Fifth Generation of Warfare (5GW) is "indistinguishable from magic"

Actually, it works so well the vast majority don't even know it exists, and dismiss those who present it. Tom's article (posted in this thread), is in fact an awesome illustration of the success of the goals of the doctrine, which is...

Right, like the Iraqis and the Afghans - they don't know it exists. And it doesn't seem to be yielding a nice compliant Iraq nor Afghanistan.

Making your own population kowtow to its own leaders is no great trick nor particularly ground breaking.

Making a foreign population kowtow to foreign interloper - that would be impressive. Clearly we are nowhere near that.

[BuckarooBanzai]

Re: Fifth Generation of Warfare (5GW) is "indistinguishable from magic"

Right, like the Iraqis and the Afghans - they don't know it exists. And it doesn't seem to be yielding a nice compliant Iraq nor Afghanistan.

Making your own population kowtow to its own leaders is no great trick nor particularly ground breaking.

Making a foreign population kowtow to foreign interloper - that would be impressive. Clearly we are nowhere near that.

Actually, the Cultural Marxists have pretty much taken over the USA without firing a shot, or even anyone noticing, over the last 80 years. Another data point supporting the idea that 5GW =
cultural Marxism? hmmmm

[BuckarooBanzai]

Re: Fifth Generation of Warfare (5GW) is "indistinguishable from magic"

You can find a complete archive of William Lind's work here: http://globalguerrillas.typepad.com/lind/

[reggie]

Re: Fifth Generation of Warfare (5GW) is "indistinguishable from magic"

Right, like the Iraqis and the Afghans - they don't know it exists. And it doesn't seem to be yielding a nice compliant Iraq nor Afghanistan

Well, Iraq & Afghans were subject to 3GW, 4GW and 5GW. But then we only see the 3GW.

Making your own population kowtow to its own leaders is no great trick nor particularly ground breaking.

What about getting your own population to actively and aggressively pursue and carry out its own demise, while it thinks it is doing good cool work. That sounds like a pretty good trick to me.

Making a foreign population kowtow to foreign interloper - that would be impressive. Clearly we are nowhere near that.

This comment itself illustrates the effectiveness of the 4GW and 5GW doctrines and techniques. The actions are carried out in such as way as the public thinks that they are organic events of history.

[reggie]

Re: Fifth Generation of Warfare (5GW) is "indistinguishable from magic"

You can find a complete archive of William Lind's work here: http://globalguerrillas.typepad.com/lind/

Very cool. Thank you.

I just found his article on 5GW, it's in the 101-51 archive (article "ON WAR #53")

[c1ue]

Re: Fifth Generation of Warfare (5GW) is "indistinguishable from magic"

What about getting your own population to actively and aggressively pursue and carry out its own demise, while it thinks it is doing good cool work. That sounds like a pretty good trick to me.

It isn't hard to fool your own population - if you are the US government you already are in charge.

Clearly the same techniques don't work anywhere else.

This comment itself illustrates the effectiveness of the 4GW and 5GW doctrines and techniques. The actions are carried out in such as way as the public thinks that they are organic events of history.

Again, you completely miss the point. Fooling your own population is like a parent lying to his kid - there are mountains of credibility and other forms of conveyed authority that must be ground down before disbelief takes hold.

These supposed magic techniques have yet to yield positive results in any of the major theatres in which American lives, money, and credibility are being expended: Iraq, Afghanistan, Al Qaeda, etc etc.

[reggie]

Re: Fifth Generation of Warfare (5GW) is "indistinguishable from magic"

These supposed magic techniques have yet to yield positive results in any of the major theatres in which American lives, money, and credibility are being expended: Iraq, Afghanistan, Al Qaeda, etc etc.

Perhaps ones assumptions about the goals of these efforts needs re-evaluation? 4GW/5GW is designed to deceive motive and obscure actual goals. These techniques were successfully employed in Vietnam, such that to this day people like Tom Engelhardt can publish propaganda almost totally unquestioned.

[c1ue]

Re: Fifth Generation of Warfare (5GW) is "indistinguishable from magic"

These techniques were successfully employed in Vietnam, such that to this day people like Tom Engelhardt can publish propaganda almost totally unquestioned.

Interesting example. I suppose Vietnam will be labelled a victory much as Iraq and Afghanistan.

It is also called being in denial.

[reggie]

Re: Fifth Generation of Warfare (5GW) is "indistinguishable from magic"

Interesting example. I suppose Vietnam will be labelled a victory much as Iraq and Afghanistan.

It is also called being in denial.

If I was a part of the elite establishment, I would label it a total and complete success for a number of reasons. Yes.

It all depends on ones frame of reference. The problem here is a failure to communicate, for I'm trying to have a multi-dimensional conversation in a largely one-dimensional space.

[reggie]

Re: Fifth Generation of Warfare (5GW) is "indistinguishable from magic"

I found Bill Lind's article on 5GW, which was very interesting. Posting here for those interested. Overall, it appears Lind's biggest issue is that he does not see a generational difference between those pushing 5GW and his definition of 4GW, saying that the 5GW'ers don't adequately understand his 4-generational framework.

On a side note, let's hope Bill's assessment in the last sentence is accurate, because the alternative is almost too much to contemplate.

ON WAR #53
Fifth Generation Warfare?
By William S. Lind (father of 4GW)
On War Series 101-51
http://globalguerrillas.typepad.com/lind/


Despite the fact that the framework of the Four Generations of Modern War is relatively new, first appearing in print in 1989, some observers are now talking about a Fifth Generation. Some see the Fifth Generation as a product of new technologies, such as nanotechnology. Others define it as the state’s struggle to maintain its monopoly on war and social organization in the face of Fourth Generation challengers. One correspondent defined it as terrorist acts done by one group in such a manner that they are blamed on another, something traditionally known as “pseudo-operations.”

These ideas are all valuable, and if people try to think beyond or outside the framework of the Four Generations, that is probably a good thing. An intellectual framework must remain open or it descends into an ideology, something poisonous per se (as Russell Kirk wrote, conservatism is the negation of ideology). At the same time, I have to say that these attempts to announce a Fifth Generation seem to go a generation too far.

One reason for the confusion may be a misapprehension of what “generation” means. In the context of the Four Generations of Modern War, “generation” is shorthand for a dialectically qualitative shift. As the originator of the framework, I adopted the word “generation” because I was speaking to and writing for Marines, and “dialectically qualitative shift” has more syllables than the Marine mind can readily grasp (think of the Emperor Joseph II’s response when he first heard Mozart’s music: “Too many notes.”). Most Marines vaguely remember that Hegel pitched for the Yankees in the late 1940’s.

As that old German would be quick to tell us, dialectically qualitative shifts occur very seldom. In my view, there were only three in the field of warfare since the modern era began with the Peace of Westphalia; the Fourth marks the end of the modern period.

One simple test for whether or not something constitutes a generational shift is that, absent a vast disparity in size, an army from a previous generation cannot beat a force from the new generation. The Second Generation French Army of 1940 could not defeat the Third Generation Wehrmacht, even thought the French had more tanks and better tanks than the Germans. The reason I do not think the wars of the French Revolution and Napoleon mark a generational shift is that Wellington consistently beat the French, and the British Army he led remained very much an 18th century army.

While attempts to think beyond the Four Generations should generally be welcomed, there are some shoals to avoid. One is technological determinism, the false notion that war’s outcome is usually determined by superiority in equipment. Martin van Creveld’s book Technology and War makes a strong case that technology is seldom the determining factor.

A related danger is technological hucksterism: coming up with Madison Avenue slogans to sell new weapons programs by claiming that they fundamentally change warfare. This kind of carnival sideshow act lies at the heart of the so-called “Revolution in Military Affairs,” and it dominates all discussions of national defense in Washington. Every contractor who hopes to get his snout in the trough claims that his widget “revolutionizes” war. As the framework of the Four Generations spreads, you can be sure that the Merchants of Death will claim that whatever they are trying to sell is an absolute necessity for Fourth (or Fifth) Generation war. It will all be poppycock.

From what I have seen thus far, honest attempts to discover a Fifth Generation suggest that their authors have not fully grasped the vast change embodied in the Fourth Generation. The loss of the state’s monopoly, not only on war but also on social organization and first loyalties, alters everything. We are only in the earliest stages of trying to understand what the Fourth Generation means in full and how it will alter – or, in too many cases, end – our lives.

Attempting to visualize a Fifth Generation from where we are now is like trying to see the outlines of the Middle Ages from the vantage point of the late Roman Empire. There is no telescope that can reach so far. We can see the barbarians on the march. In America and in Europe, we already find them inside the limes and within the legions. But what follows the chaos they bring in their wake, only the gods on Mount Olympus can see. It may be worth remembering that the last time this happened, the gods themselves died.

[c1ue]

Re: Fifth Generation of Warfare (5GW) is "indistinguishable from magic"

If I was a part of the elite establishment, I would label it a total and complete success for a number of reasons. Yes.

Oh right. Loss of American prestige in 'localizing' the conflict in Vietnam - said nation then becoming wholly Communist.

Expense of said war tipping the US into having to abrogate Bretton Woods. Said action leading to major economic instability in the '70s due to oil prices, including 15% interest rates, high inflation, and multiple recessions.

Unpopular war leading to significant cultural shifts in the US most notably an anti-establishment/anti-authority movement.

But in your book somehow this is a victory. Yeah, whatever.

It all depends on ones frame of reference. The problem here is a failure to communicate, for I'm trying to have a multi-dimensional conversation in a largely one-dimensional space.

The problem here is that we all live in a 3 dimensional world, but you're communicating in extra dimensions which are only in your own mind.

Your ongoing refusal to acknowledge facts which inconveniently clash with your beliefs only serves to reduce the value of any knowledge you offer.

[reggie]

Re: Fifth Generation of Warfare (5GW) is "indistinguishable from magic"

Your ongoing refusal to acknowledge facts which inconveniently clash with your beliefs only serves to reduce the value of any knowledge you offer.

Vietnam was 4GW on the USA/Globe. In part, it brought the Chinese oligarchs to the table in preparation for GATT and in preparation for the system transformation we're currently living through. Your facts are nothing more than supplied and tightly controlled social realities. Please at least accept that there are realities outside the publics Marcusian boundaries. Just because the public is unaware of other social realities makes them no less real.

Part of the objectives of this thread is to help demonstrate the level of science behind the obfuscations in our world, with an entire ecosystem of think tanks and high level thinkers tasked to develop such magic in order to disguise motives and methods.

[jk]

Re: Fifth Generation of Warfare (5GW) is "indistinguishable from magic"

i think the string theorists are working in 11 dimensions now.

also: "magic" works by sleight of hand, distracting the observer so that the actual real event isn't noticed. to be convinced the vietnamese war was a success for the u.s. is magic indeed.

[reggie]

Re: Fifth Generation of Warfare (5GW) is "indistinguishable from magic"

i think the string theorists are working in 11 dimensions now.

also: "magic" works by sleight of hand, distracting the observer so that the actual real event isn't noticed. to be convinced the vietnamese war was a success for the u.s. is magic indeed.

I agree, it was a success for the oligarchy, not the USA, at least NOT the American public. But then, the American publics interests were never on the table, that's obvious to anyone who steps outside the standard propaganda lines.

[c1ue]

Re: Fifth Generation of Warfare (5GW) is "indistinguishable from magic"

Your facts are nothing more than supplied and tightly controlled social realities. Please at least accept that there are realities outside the publics Marcusian boundaries.

Your wierd reality is too Bizarro for me.

To say that the powers that be in China were brought to the table by 4GW or whatever bulls**t magic crap you espouse, is to hide from reality.

China in the late '60s and early 70's was still firmly under the thumb of Mao.

To equate the leadership of Mao with the present Chinese leadership is truly the statement of the ignorant.

Perhaps you think the industrialization of China in the past 2 decades is on par with the Cultural Revolution and the Great Leap Forward.

For my part, your already low credibility as eroded to zero.