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  • Down the Start-Up Staircase




    Andrew "Andy" Grove, co-founder and senior adviser to Intel Corp., listens during an interview in his office in Los Altos, California.


    Recently an acquaintance at the next table in a Palo Alto, California, restaurant introduced me to his companions: three young venture capitalists from China. They explained, with visible excitement, that they were touring promising companies in Silicon Valley. I’ve lived in the Valley a long time, and usually when I see how the region has become such a draw for global investments, I feel a little proud.

    Not this time. I left the restaurant unsettled. Something didn’t add up. Bay Area unemployment is even higher than the 9.7 percent national average. Clearly, the great Silicon Valley innovation machine hasn’t been creating many jobs of late -- unless you are counting Asia, where American technology companies have been adding jobs like mad for years.

    The underlying problem isn’t simply lower Asian costs. It’s our own misplaced faith in the power of startups to create U.S. jobs. Americans love the idea of the guys in the garage inventing something that changes the world. New York Times columnist Thomas L. Friedman recently encapsulated this view in a piece called “Start-Ups, Not Bailouts.” His argument: Let tired old companies that do commodity manufacturing die if they have to. If Washington really wants to create jobs, he wrote, it should back startups.

    Mythical Moment

    Friedman is wrong. Startups are a wonderful thing, but they cannot by themselves increase tech employment. Equally important is what comes after that mythical moment of creation in the garage, as technology goes from prototype to mass production. This is the phase where companies scale up. They work out design details, figure out how to make things affordably, build factories, and hire people by the thousands. Scaling is hard work but necessary to make innovation matter.

    The scaling process is no longer happening in the U.S. And as long as that’s the case, plowing capital into young companies that build their factories elsewhere will continue to yield a bad return in terms of American jobs.

    Scaling used to work well in Silicon Valley. Entrepreneurs came up with an invention. Investors gave them money to build their business. If the founders and their investors were lucky, the company grew and had an initial public offering, which brought in money that financed further growth.

    Intel Startup

    I am fortunate to have lived through one such example. In 1968, two well-known technologists and their investor friends anted up $3 million to start Intel Corp., making memory chips for the computer industry. From the beginning, we had to figure out how to make our chips in volume. We had to build factories; hire, train and retain employees; establish relationships with suppliers; and sort out a million other things before Intel could become a billion-dollar company. Three years later, it went public and grew to be one of the biggest technology companies in the world. By 1980, which was 10 years after our IPO, about 13,000 people worked for Intel in the U.S.

    Not far from Intel’s headquarters in Santa Clara, California, other companies developed. Tandem Computers Inc. went through a similar process, then Sun Microsystems Inc., Cisco Systems Inc., Netscape Communications Corp., and on and on. Some companies died along the way or were absorbed by others, but each survivor added to the complex technological ecosystem that came to be called Silicon Valley.

    As time passed, wages and health-care costs rose in the U.S., and China opened up. American companies discovered they could have their manufacturing and even their engineering done cheaper overseas. When they did so, margins improved. Management was happy, and so were stockholders. Growth continued, even more profitably. But the job machine began sputtering.

    U.S. Versus China

    Today, manufacturing employment in the U.S. computer industry is about 166,000 -- lower than it was before the first personal computer, the MITS Altair 2800, was assembled in 1975. Meanwhile, a very effective computer-manufacturing industry has emerged in Asia, employing about 1.5 million workers -- factory employees, engineers and managers.

    The largest of these companies is Hon Hai Precision Industry Co., also known as Foxconn. The company has grown at an astounding rate, first in Taiwan and later in China. Its revenue last year was $62 billion, larger than Apple Inc., Microsoft Corp., Dell Inc. or Intel. Foxconn employs more than 800,000 people, more than the combined worldwide head count of Apple, Dell, Microsoft, Hewlett-Packard Co., Intel and Sony Corp.

    10-to-1 Ratio

    Until a recent spate of suicides at Foxconn’s giant factory complex in Shenzhen, China, few Americans had heard of the company. But most know the products it makes: computers for Dell and HP, Nokia Oyj cell phones, Microsoft Xbox 360 consoles, Intel motherboards, and countless other familiar gadgets. Some 250,000 Foxconn employees in southern China produce Apple’s products. Apple, meanwhile, has about 25,000 employees in the U.S. -- that means for every Apple worker in the U.S. there are 10 people in China working on iMacs, iPods and iPhones. The same roughly 10-to-1 relationship holds for Dell, disk-drive maker Seagate Technology, and other U.S. tech companies.

    You could say, as many do, that shipping jobs overseas is no big deal because the high-value work -- and much of the profits -- remain in the U.S. That may well be so. But what kind of a society are we going to have if it consists of highly paid people doing high-value-added work -- and masses of unemployed?

    Since the early days of Silicon Valley, the money invested in companies has increased dramatically, only to produce fewer jobs. Simply put, the U.S. has become wildly inefficient at creating American tech jobs. We may be less aware of this growing inefficiency, however, because our history of creating jobs over the past few decades has been spectacular -- masking our greater and greater spending to create each position.

    Tragic Mistake

    Should we wait and not act on the basis of early indicators? I think that would be a tragic mistake because the only chance we have to reverse the deterioration is if we act early and decisively.

    Already the decline has been marked. It may be measured by way of a simple calculation: an estimate of the employment cost- effectiveness of a company. First, take the initial investment plus the investment during a company’s IPO. Then divide that by the number of employees working in that company 10 years later. For Intel, this worked out to be about $650 per job -- $3,600 adjusted for inflation. National Semiconductor Corp., another chip company, was even more efficient at $2,000 per job.

    Making the same calculations for a number of Silicon Valley companies shows that the cost of creating U.S. jobs grew from a few thousand dollars per position in the early years to $100,000 today. The obvious reason: Companies simply hire fewer employees as more work is done by outside contractors, usually in Asia.
    Alternative Energy

    The job-machine breakdown isn’t just in computers. Consider alternative energy, an emerging industry where there is plenty of innovation. Photovoltaics, for example, are a U.S. invention. Their use in home-energy applications was also pioneered by the U.S.

    Last year, I decided to do my bit for energy conservation and set out to equip my house with solar power. My wife and I talked with four local solar firms. As part of our due diligence, I checked where they get their photovoltaic panels -- the key part of the system. All the panels they use come from China. A Silicon Valley company sells equipment used to manufacture photo-active films. They ship close to 10 times more machines to China than to manufacturers in the U.S., and this gap is growing. Not surprisingly, U.S. employment in the making of photovoltaic films and panels is perhaps 10,000 -- just a few percent of estimated worldwide employment.
    Advanced Batteries

    There’s more at stake than exported jobs. With some technologies, both scaling and innovation take place overseas. Such is the case with advanced batteries. It has taken years and many false starts, but finally we are about to witness mass- produced electric cars and trucks. They all rely on lithium-ion batteries. What microprocessors are to computing, batteries are to electric vehicles. Unlike with microprocessors, the U.S. share of lithium-ion battery production is tiny.

    That’s a problem. A new industry needs an effective ecosystem in which technology knowhow accumulates, experience builds on experience, and close relationships develop between supplier and customer. The U.S. lost its lead in batteries 30 years ago when it stopped making consumer-electronics devices. Whoever made batteries then gained the exposure and relationships needed to learn to supply batteries for the more demanding laptop PC market, and after that, for the even more demanding automobile market. U.S. companies didn’t participate in the first phase and consequently weren’t in the running for all that followed. I doubt they will ever catch up.

    Job Creation

    Scaling isn’t easy. The investments required are much higher than in the invention phase. And funds need to be committed early, when not much is known about the potential market. Another example from Intel: The investment to build a silicon manufacturing plant in the 1970s was a few million dollars. By the early 1990s, the cost of the factories that would be able to produce the new Pentium chips in volume rose to several billion dollars. The decision to build these plants needed to be made years before we knew whether the Pentium chip would work or whether the market would be interested in it.

    Lessons we learned from previous missteps helped us. Years earlier, when Intel’s business consisted of making memory chips, we hesitated to add manufacturing capacity, not being sure about the market demand in years to come. Our Japanese competitors didn’t hesitate: They built the plants. When the demand for memory chips exploded, the Japanese roared into the U.S. market and Intel began its descent as a memory-chip supplier.

    Intel Experience

    Though steeled by that experience, I remember how afraid I was as I asked the Intel directors for authorization to spend billions of dollars for factories to make a product that didn’t exist at the time for a market we couldn’t size. Fortunately, they gave their OK even as they gulped. The bet paid off.

    My point isn’t that Intel was brilliant. The company was founded at a time when it was easier to scale domestically. For one thing, China wasn’t yet open for business. More importantly, the U.S. hadn’t yet forgotten that scaling was crucial to its economic future.

    How could the U.S. have forgotten? I believe the answer has to do with a general undervaluing of manufacturing -- the idea that as long as “knowledge work” stays in the U.S., it doesn’t matter what happens to factory jobs. It’s not just newspaper commentators who spread this idea.

    Offshore Production

    Consider this passage by Princeton University economist Alan S. Blinder: “The TV manufacturing industry really started here, and at one point employed many workers. But as TV sets became ‘just a commodity,’ their production moved offshore to locations with much lower wages. And nowadays the number of television sets manufactured in the U.S. is zero. A failure? No, a success.”

    I disagree. Not only did we lose an untold number of jobs, we broke the chain of experience that is so important in technological evolution. As happened with batteries, abandoning today’s “commodity” manufacturing can lock you out of tomorrow’s emerging industry.

    Our fundamental economic beliefs, which we have elevated from a conviction based on observation to an unquestioned truism, is that the free market is the best economic system -- the freer, the better. Our generation has seen the decisive victory of free-market principles over planned economies. So we stick with this belief, largely oblivious to emerging evidence that while free markets beat planned economies, there may be room for a modification that is even better.

    No. 1 Objective

    Such evidence stares at us from the performance of several Asian countries in the past few decades. These countries seem to understand that job creation must be the No. 1 objective of state economic policy. The government plays a strategic role in setting the priorities and arraying the forces and organization necessary to achieve this goal.

    The rapid development of the Asian economies provides numerous illustrations. In a thorough study of the industrial development of East Asia, Robert Wade of the London School of Economics found that these economies turned in precedent- shattering economic performances over the 1970s and 1980s in large part because of the effective involvement of the government in targeting the growth of manufacturing industries.

    Consider the “Golden Projects,” a series of digital initiatives driven by the Chinese government in the late 1980s and 1990s. Beijing was convinced of the importance of electronic networks -- used for transactions, communications and coordination -- in enabling job creation, particularly in the less developed parts of the country. Consequently, the Golden Projects enjoyed priority funding. In time, they contributed to the rapid development of China’s information infrastructure and the country’s economic growth.

    Job-Centric Economy

    How do we turn such Asian experience into intelligent action here and now? Long term, we need a job-centric economic theory -- and job-centric political leadership -- to guide our plans and actions. In the meantime, consider some basic thoughts from a onetime factory guy.

    Silicon Valley is a community with a strong tradition of engineering, and engineers are a peculiar breed. They are eager to solve whatever problems they encounter. If profit margins are the problem, we go to work on margins, with exquisite focus. Each company, ruggedly individualistic, does its best to expand efficiently and improve its own profitability. However, our pursuit of our individual businesses, which often involves transferring manufacturing and a great deal of engineering out of the country, has hindered our ability to bring innovations to scale at home. Without scaling, we don’t just lose jobs -- we lose our hold on new technologies. Losing the ability to scale will ultimately damage our capacity to innovate.

    Blade Didn’t Drop

    The story comes to mind of an engineer who was to be executed by guillotine. The guillotine was stuck, and custom required that if the blade didn’t drop, the condemned man was set free. Before this could happen, the engineer pointed with excitement to a rusty pulley, and told the executioner to apply some oil there. Off went his head.

    We got to our current state as a consequence of many of us taking actions focused on our own companies’ next milestones. An example: Five years ago, a friend joined a large VC firm as a partner. His responsibility was to make sure that all the startups they funded had a “China strategy,” meaning a plan to move what jobs they could to China. He was going around with an oil can, applying drops to the guillotine in case it was stuck. We should put away our oil cans. VCs should have a partner in charge of every startup’s “U.S. strategy.”

    Financial Incentives

    The first task is to rebuild our industrial commons. We should develop a system of financial incentives: Levy an extra tax on the product of offshored labor. (If the result is a trade war, treat it like other wars -- fight to win.) Keep that money separate. Deposit it in the coffers of what we might call the Scaling Bank of the U.S. and make these sums available to companies that will scale their American operations. Such a system would be a daily reminder that while pursuing our company goals, all of us in business have a responsibility to maintain the industrial base on which we depend and the society whose adaptability -- and stability -- we may have taken for granted.

    I fled Hungary as a young man in 1956 to come to the U.S. Growing up in the Soviet bloc, I witnessed first-hand the perils of both government overreach and a stratified population. Most Americans probably aren’t aware that there was a time in this country when tanks and cavalry were massed on Pennsylvania Avenue to chase away the unemployed. It was 1932; thousands of jobless veterans were demonstrating outside the White House. Soldiers with fixed bayonets and live ammunition moved in on them, and herded them away from the White House. In America! Unemployment is corrosive. If what I’m suggesting sounds protectionist, so be it.

    Choice Is Simple

    Every day, that Palo Alto restaurant where I met the Chinese venture capitalists is full of technology executives and entrepreneurs. Many of them are my friends. I understand the technological challenges they face, along with the financial pressure they are under from directors and shareholders. Can we expect them to take on yet another assignment, to work on behalf of a loosely defined community of companies, employees, and employees yet to be hired? To do so is undoubtedly naive. Yet the imperative for change is real and the choice is simple. If we want to remain a leading economy, we change on our own, or change will continue to be forced upon us.

    (Andy Grove, senior adviser to Intel, was the company’s chief executive officer or chairman from 1987 until 2005. The opinions expressed, featured in the July 5 issue of Bloomberg Businessweek, are his own.)

  • #2
    Re: Down the Start-Up Staircase

    Sorry if this has been posted on this forum previously. Given the direction of this thread, I believe this is relevant here.


    The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance - it is the illusion of knowledge ~D Boorstin

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Down the Start-Up Staircase

      Originally posted by MarkL
      Sorry to be so blunt, but you're quite out of touch my friend... Facebook is expected to make 1-2 billion this year and be tremendously profitable. YouTube is already profitable for Google. Linked In has been profitable for 2 years. The other "cousins" you refer to are the losers... excepting perhaps Twitter which is still on it's growth curve and could go either way.

      Oh, and they all employ quite a few folks as well... and I guarantee you will employ more in future years.
      Bubba, you're confusing revenue with profit.

      Facebook may generate $1B in revenue this year - though as of September 2009 it was only looking at $500M, but it is still FAR from clear how much of this is profit.

      http://www.businessweek.com/the_thre...itability.html

      On Tuesday, those concerns were momentarily quieted as Facebook announced that it’s now free cash flow positive.
      This doesn’t mean the social network is a profitable operation yet. Rather, the cash it generates from advertising and other forms of revenue now exceed the cost of servers and other capital expenditures required to keep Facebook running. One-time costs, like the reported $50 million acquisition of Friendfeed last month, and operational expenses like personnel, are not included in this equation. Outside investments in the company, like the $200 million it raised from Digital Sky Technologies in May, are not accounted for either.
      Facebook has never disclosed its revenues, but board member Marc Andreessen recently told Rueters that the site is on track to generate over $500 million in revenues this year.
      http://blog.facebook.com/blog.php?post=136782277130

      We're also succeeding at building Facebook in a sustainable way. Earlier this year, we said we expected to be cash flow positive sometime in 2010, and I'm pleased to share that we achieved this milestone last quarter. This is important to us because it sets Facebook up to be a strong independent service for the long term.
      As a businessman, surely you admit at least that being barely cash flow positive (and a future prediction to boot) hardly equates with profitability?

      Youtube:

      http://www.broadbandtvnews.com/2010/...table-in-2010/

      Speaking before a packed house, Patrick Walker, director of partnerships, YouTube/Google, said he expected the online video service to be profitable this year.
      This was from March of this year. Going from negative to positive cash flow again - and again ignoring capital costs.

      LinkedIn is profitable - the only example you put forward which might illustrate your position.

      All in all, your assertion is clearly wrong.

      Being cash flow positive ("profitable") but not accounting for capital costs (even at historic low interest rates, $1.65B generates a lot of interest income, ditto for Facebook's 9 digits of invested capital).

      Originally posted by MarkL
      Actually, no... both Ebay and Google took years to get profitable and required several rounds of funding... "The first funding for Google was an 1998 contribution of $100,000 from Andy Bechtolsheim, co-founder of Sun Microsystems. On June 7, 1999, a $25 million from Kleiner Perkins Caufield & Byers and Sequoia Capital.[35] Google's initial public offering (IPO) took place which gave them 1.25 billion to work with.
      Again, your memory is selective and WRONG.

      Google had investment in 1998 and 1999, but was profitable in 2001.

      http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/1476805.stm

      Monday, 6 August, 2001, 23:01 GMT 00:01 UK
      Google profitable, new chief says
      Internet search giant Google has joined the elite number of dot.com firms to be running at a profit, the company's new boss says. Eric Schmidt, who while at Sun Microsystems "led the development of Java", said the company had operated at a profit for the last two financial quarters.
      Ebay in turn was profitable (in the free cash flow definition) in 1999, 1 year after IPO and less than 3 years after incorporation.

      http://investor.ebay.com/releasedeta...eleaseID=15257

      The Company generated net revenues of $34.0 million in the first quarter of 1999, a 469 percent increase over the $6.0 million reported for the same period last fiscal year. Gross profit margin decreased to 85 percent for the quarter from 89 percent a year ago. Net income for the current quarter was $5.9 million, or $0.05 per share on a fully diluted basis.
      Both of your purported examples had companies with 8 digit investment turn profitable in 3 years or less. I am, of course, excluding the $213M invested into Paypal.

      Try again.

      Originally posted by MarkL
      Ah, I see the 4 billion dollars that Apple makes from iTunes is a failure. The 2700 people Apple employs to this end aren't "real jobs." The 70% of the Premium download market and 25% of all music sales they've accomplished is meaningless. No "business model triumph" there. Nope.
      Again, you brandish iTunes revenue much as a bankster brandishes his trading profits.

      Let me put this another way: If I built a company which pirated DVDs and CDs, and made $4B revenue, does that mean piracy is a legitimate value creation enterprise?

      Again, you fail to understand the substance of what I said.

      The value of iTunes is not primarily due to its ability to sell $0.99 songs.

      Its value is primarily allowing Apple to disintermediate music industry reharvesting and thus reinforce its own hardware sales.

      Originally posted by MarkL
      He sounds like quite a guy... I'm glad we finally agree innovation occurs in this process!! However, you still fail to understand the motivations of capitalism if you think a person at an 8-5 boring job is going to do what an entrepreneur does who has a shot at millions. And as you've said yourself, "the disfunctional (sic) nature of the modern corporation" makes it unlikely they would have had the necessary vision to make the leap.
      Again you fail to understand my point.

      Whether employer or employee, there IS fiduciary duty.

      Do you even understand what that is?

      Or is your motto what the banksters employ - that which makes money, is right?

      Originally posted by MarkL
      You are a socialist. Capitalism is the best and most successful system man has yet tried and while as is true with all of man's institutions it has many major flaws, it works and works well. I am a capitalist and will not agree that someone "stocking grocery shelves" provides the same value to society as Steve jobs whose technologies have transformed our lives and whom currently employs over 10 THOUSAND people.
      You, sir, are showing your basic inability to both read and comprehend.

      The reality is that not everyone can or should be a venture capitalist.

      If these untermenschen would simply disappear, then perhaps there would be no issue.

      But in real life, these people also have their own hopes and dreams.

      The wilful ignorance of this much larger mass of humanity's existence only ends in revolution, not to mention the waste of all the potential embedded.

      If the best you can come up with is some grade school propaganda combined with ad hominem, then be on your way.

      All you've said thus far is the technotopian equivalent of "Let them eat cake"

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Down the Start-Up Staircase

        There we go -- that's the feeling of despair I've come to expect when reading an article posted by don. Well done, sir!

        But seriously, this is a really good essay. Thanks for posting it.

        Now, how do we save ourselves?

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Down the Start-Up Staircase

          Grove is an extremely moral executive, and a pretty moral person overall.

          The only caveat from the excellent article is that the strategy of 'intellectual property' preservation coupled with manufacturing offshoring is only true for areas where large US multinationals have deployed their legal resources to accomplish this goal.

          I just spoke with a local shop specializing in electric scooter repair - after an incident related to a shipping damage of my recently upgraded to Li-Ion scooter.

          The proprietor is a strange person, but extremely focused on what he does.

          As he looked over my machine and we talked, he spoke about how intellectual property theft had destroyed the electric scooter industry in the US.

          In the past, there were 200 manufacturers and thousands of shops making, servicing, and selling electric scooters to Americans.

          Today, there is 1 (Patmont Motorwerks, maker of my Goped) and it is hurting. The thousands of retail and service outlets are down to hundreds.

          The owner ascribed this to outright theft of American-developed electric scooter designs by other nations - principally China. In this case, there is no gigantic multinational with the wherewithall to pull legal and political strings.

          Perhaps an incorrect anecdote, but it rings true to me.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Down the Start-Up Staircase

            Thanks for the article, it puts some good details to the overall feeling that China will soon manufacture all the goods we want and eventually we won't even have the money to afford any from them. I agree with the author on a lot of these points, but that being said I still have a few critical comments.

            I don't understand the mindset that the US has a free market. It is partially true and maybe you could say mostly true. Still to me that is like saying a glass of water is poison-free because it only contains 10% poison. The bigger problem in my opinion though is that the problems in our economy are too often blamed on it being mostly free rather than not free enough.

            Is the root of the problem that companies are free to outsource to lower costs? Or is the problem that a combination of taxation, regulation, litigation, labor laws and other government interference make it not competitive to manufacture in the US?

            Also what will be the end result if we implement these suggestions? US companies will be forced have higher costs than their global competitors. Even if protectionist laws can force US consumers to pay a premium for US made goods, the rest of the world won't.

            If he concedes that the free-market is superior to a planned economy, why is his solution to have less freedom and more planning?

            Regardless of what is or is not done, I don't think there's any way to "save ourselves" that doesn't involve at least some lowering of expectations/standard of living.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Down the Start-Up Staircase

              Originally posted by ASH View Post
              There we go -- that's the feeling of despair I've come to expect when reading an article posted by don. Well done, sir!

              But seriously, this is a really good essay. Thanks for posting it.

              Now, how do we save ourselves?
              That is absolutely the best thing I've ever read from Andy Grove.......for me at least, I perceive a rather substantial change in attitude from a guy who, until recently(late 90's), had the hubris of a demigod...I'm thinking the Upside Magazine days when Andy Grove, Silicon Valley, and Don Valentine were accelerating towards their zenith like a bloody Saturn V rocket.

              In regards to how we save ourselves, while I agree in large part with Mr Grove, I'm not sure of exactly WHERE the answer lies.

              Back in the 90's I worked for a semicon manufacturing equipment maker through 2 semicon boom/busts whose largest single customer was Andy Grove's Intel. The industry(at least the segment I was in) was notorious for its volatility. There could be a substantial layoff today, with desperate rehiring in 12-18 months.

              It's where I gained some personal perspective on how the world worked and which direction it was going in.

              The outfit I worked for employed over 2000 well paid manufacturing/engineering/management/admin pers. A strategic strategy of shifting manufacturing to Singapore was made in the mid 90's. I saw the writing on the wall(being a manufacturing product line manager at the time) and had the good fortune to shift to Amazon when they were in their infancy.

              My dad and my peers all pretty much stuck around....until they were let go when Manufacturing Ops were shut down in the US.

              The funny thing is the company never actually completed it's manufacturing operations shift to Singapore...before they completed the move they leapfrogged again straight into Mainland China.

              Their US presence used to be physically impress, with an equally impressive parking lot full of a mix of late model American, Japanese, and European cars.......now their US presence is a postage stamp compared to 10 years ago.

              My Dad spent 40-ish years with the company, flying back and forth between the US and Asia since the mid-70s as well as in/out of Silicon Valley and other distant chip fabs....there's a couple of things I recall with great clarity:

              Discussing with my Dad how incredibly TOUGH it was to sell a single machine(wire bonders/wedge bonders) into Japan(this is the 80's, early 90's). And the difficulty had far less to do with comparative product price/performance than Japan being an insular Japan first market with their strongly interlinked manufacturing supply chains and pedantic, domestic industry supportive bureaucracy that made importation into Japan an intentionally byzantine nightmare.

              I also remember the late 70's, early 80's how some awesome young Chinese engineers who were visiting the US with my Dad minding them were living a humble existence in China, with far more humble upbringings. They came over our house very often for my Mom to fatten up as it was obvious they'd be living on some spartan noodles otherwise. My Dad built some strong relationships with these young fellas......and as relationships have value it's probably the main reason why my Dad was able to hold on as long as he did at the company.

              The last I heard from my Dad is that 2 of the fellas that came over our house have had stellar careers and are now running one of those multibillion dollar chip fabs and his own engineering services outfit(this is a few years back).

              My Dad is in his mid 60's...he'd prefer to work until he drops dead, but is finding it hard to find employment as he's reluctant to leverage some of those old relationships for his own benefit.

              He spends a bit of time running an unofficial alumni network of folks he used to work with and former employees of suppliers who still get together now and again socially and to look for work, as many have dropped a rung or two since the loss of the manufacturing base and the supporting cottage industry it supported.

              What I find most sad is that with the hollowing out of US manufacturing and the massive support system logistical tail(from a strong and effective math/science education system to the cottage industry that springs up around entrepreneurial excellence ) that goes with it is that the very same "Right Stuff" that put a man on the moon wasn't just the ONE guy at the tip of the spear saying cool sh!t like "Light this candle!" in Tom Wolfe's book, it was the countless, faceless men and women who used to actually MAKE stuff which was the real right stuff.

              I'm a pretty simple guy, and often fell like I'm pulling a muscle in my brain trying to keep up with things on this forum, but the way I look at things from a manufacturing/reindustrialization of the US perspective is this:

              We are on a ladder

              If we climb a rung on the ladder we move up from making simple toasters to making complex rocket boot wearing robots.

              If we get passed on the ladder we lose jobs.

              Previously(up until say the 1970's) we had a pretty big gap between us and much of the rest of the world on the manufacturing ladder beneath us.

              Since that time the ladder has become more crowded and more competitive from a US perspective.

              The US has also become fat and complacent with it's momentum up the ladder slowing at a time when other on the ladder are clearly gaining momentum.

              We've already had two embarrassing and high profile incidents in the late 70's/80's that exemplify this.....Japan passing us on the ladder with auto manufacturing, and the world passing us in the steel industry.

              There have been other less newsworthy(meaning fewer jobs) examples such as the example Andy Grove offered with Japan passing the US on memory chips, forcing Intel to reorient their entire business at the time towards CPUs......meaning Intel climbed higher up the ladder and surrendered a lower rung to Japan.

              Where I am at a loss as to HOW the US can reindustrialze is the whole life support system/long logistical tail for higher level industry that from my superficial perspective no longer exists in the US as it once did.

              I'm probably being a bit overdramatic here, but when I see photos of the former Soviet Union's Cosmodrome that achieved so much but is now a rusted out shell of it's former self I can't help but think it's a rough analogy of where US infrastructure to reindustrialize the US currently stands.

              We are planning on reindustrializing HIGHER up the ladder right?

              Not to sound overly doom and gloom-ish.......but I'm kinda thinking efforts to reindustrialize the US will require FAR more than even the most successful business friendly policies imagineable......

              Why? Because we completely failed to create the circumstances to effectively turn out of work steelworkers into high paid latte sipping web designers.

              What makes us think we can turn an out of work Pontiac car salesman into a nanotechnology engineer?

              It's not rhetorical skepticism, it's a genuine question.

              Just 0.02c

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Down the Start-Up Staircase

                Interesting anecdote. It's a little confusing that there could be 200 manufacturers if the intellectual property was so critical.

                I think the US is too reliant on legal mechanisms for defending its business. Maybe if they had spent more time/money finding ways to build better, cheaper scooters and less time/money on patents and patent lawyers they would have ended up in a better position. I realize this is difficult in an environment where if you don't patent it, someone else will and then will sue you.

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                • #9
                  Re: Down the Start-Up Staircase

                  Off the top of my head, it seems to me that the US (and every country in a similar plight) can do it with tax laws and incentives. Every US citizen is taxed for their world-wide income. Income from foreign sources can be taxed at a higher rate than domestic. No foreign country can say anything about how the US taxes its own citizens. No trade war is possible over this one. Domestic production suddenly becomes more profitable. If they don't like it, they can give up their citizenship in a time when they most likely want a safe place to hide during the economic storm that is here & getting worse.

                  Let's look at Wal-Mart. They want good quality goods at cheap prices. They can buy domestically, or import from China. To avoid a trade war, there are minimal import duties as long as they play "fair" (ie. avoid dumping, government subsidies, predatory pricing, etc.).

                  Henry Ford doubled the average wage for everybody working for him in 1910, so that they would earn enough money to buy his cars. If he hadn't done this, his market would have been small (ie. the millionaire's club), instead of the millions of workers. Henry Ford, and others like him, created the "middle class".

                  If Wal-Mart decides to buy foreign, they might pay in US$ or Chinese yuan. Whether they do it directly, or through intermediaries, sooner or later money has to leave the US and reach this foreign supplier. When the money changes (ie. FX transaction), the government can tax it. When the money leaves the US, it can be taxed. The cheap goods in China aren't so cheap when they land at the port, ready for Wal-mart to pick them up. All of this is avoided if Wal-mart chooses to buy from a domestic supplier.

                  For every trade there are two flows, the goods and the money. If import duties are a no-no on the goods for "free trade", you can always tax the equal and opposite flow stream.

                  For US corporations, the same can be easily done. Wide open borders for encouraging the best goods from anywhere in the world. If the US manufacturers are asleep, no sense in punishing the market for their incompetence, consumers can buy the better foreign goods.

                  For US companies, when profits come home from foreign operations, they are taxed heavily by the US government. Foreign owners operating in the US are required to do so through a US corporation that they are free to form.

                  As learned from importing $ millions in defective drywall which subsequently caused $ billions in damages & losses, and nobody in the US to sue, and unlikely success of sueing through Chinese courts, this could have been avoided by mandating a US corporation as sales & marketing agent for the Chinese manufacturer, and the taxing of dividends, royalties, and management fees that were being paid to Chinese owners. If they don't like the rules, they can go play somewhere else.
                  Last edited by Glenn Black; July 02, 2010, 07:44 PM.

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                  • #10
                    Re: Down the Start-Up Staircase

                    Originally posted by c1ue View Post
                    Today, there is 1 (Patmont Motorwerks, maker of my Goped) and it is hurting. The thousands of retail and service outlets are down to hundreds.
                    You will always be on a Goped when I read your posts from now on. I love it!

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                    • #11
                      Re: Down the Start-Up Staircase

                      Originally posted by lakedaemonian View Post
                      We are on a ladder...

                      ...Where I am at a loss as to HOW the US can reindustrialze is the whole life support system/long logistical tail for higher level industry that from my superficial perspective no longer exists in the US as it once did....

                      ...the former Soviet Union's Cosmodrome that achieved so much but is now a rusted out shell of it's former self ...


                      We are planning on reindustrializing HIGHER up the ladder right?
                      Rome is on FIRE. It's gonna burn longer than most think. There is no way back. There will be pain and crying, and then people will wake up one day, speaking English and not Mandarin, and the massive advantages that the US possesses will kick in. And we will happily end up as the wingman of the Chinese century.

                      Manufacturing and innovation will start again, once labor costs essentially equalize. It's going to hurt like a son-of-a-bitch, might as well get ready now.

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                      • #12
                        Re: Down the Start-Up Staircase

                        What can we do to reverse the trend? Well we refocus our priorities on being the best country in the world to run a business in - from design to engineering to manufacturing and all the rest - and away from boutique leftist concerns like being apologetic for how successful we were in the past and bowing and scraping to show everyone we feel guilty.

                        Specifically, take a machete to the regulations and taxes on business so that this is hands down the easiest place to start a business, find native educated/skilled workers, hire them and fire them at will, bust unions, etc etc.

                        Second, stop educating the children of our competitors in the skills that gave us a world leadership role in the first place: science, engineering, business administration.

                        Third, get extremely serious about retaliating when our intellectual property is stolen, as the Chinese do with impunity.

                        If I were Chinese, I would look across the ocean at us and think we were the biggest bunch of suckers on earth. They send their kids over to occupy spaces in our best universities and colleges - often taking the teaching assistantships and scholarships - learn the skills we invested decades of social capital to develop, and then the kids come home and build companies to put ours out of business. Some of them who stay here rather than go home actually engage in industrial and even military/governmental espionage. They steal our companies' software, technical secrets, and so on and brazenly produce copycat products and sell them back to us, putting our own companies out of business. Meanwhile our President goes over there to literally bow and humble himself to show how much humility we have now and how we realize how rotten and imperialistic and insensitive we were before. The Chinese must have lost a tremendous amount of respect for us. What self-respecting people behave like this?

                        So the thing to do is get real again about making it extremely easy and profitable to have a business here and to focus on keeping the intellectual capital - the trade secrets and the advanced education - here in this country for OUR children to learn and profit by. No company in the world could survive by teaching its competitors the secrets of how it succeeded; no country can either.

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                        • #13
                          Re: Down the Start-Up Staircase

                          Originally posted by Jay View Post
                          And we will happily end up as the wingman of the Chinese century.
                          I'll believe it when I see it. They've made some great strides in a couple decades, having adopted "socialism with Chinese characteristics" (i.e. some elements of free markets) but they are still a largely centrally-planned economy without the real flexibility and responsiveness that comes with representative government, true freedom of speech, honest protection of property rights, and so on. We've seen them make this big splash because they were so completely stymied by communism in the past that just having some actual free enterprise resulted in great gains.

                          But I remember all the talk when I was in business school in the 1980s about how the Japanese were the new lords and masters of the business world. They've done well but they've also been in an economic slump for 20 years because of their social characteristics and refusal to let firms fail.

                          If we get back to our free market basics I am confident we could continue to kick the world's ass for a long time to come. I second the comment of the person who wrote above that he is dismayed when he reads people suggesting that our problems are caused by the 60% of our economy that is free rather than the 40% that is government-controlled. We taught the world how to innovate and produce and it feels like we're throwing that away to try to become just another stagnant social democracy.

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                          • #14
                            Re: Down the Start-Up Staircase

                            His solution is trade wars. He just wants to tariff his way out of reality.

                            This solution has two huge problems:

                            1. Trade wars could possibly bring the global economy to a screeching halt - great depression #2 Smoot–Hawley Tariff Act, anyone!?
                            2. So we get manufacturing jobs back a little bit after the great depression and for a couple of years
                            people have nice robot like jobs in factories .. oh but then automation takes over and those jobs go away again.
                            Gee, thanks Andy!

                            No, the solution is to start building robot factories NOW to compete with the Chinese and we need to find a way to have an economy that's not based on manufacturing jobs.

                            The Japanese already understand this and as per usual are ways ahead of us.

                            Oh yes, and carbon taxes because let's face it, we're running out of oil. Make the carbon taxes revenue neutral by cutting income taxes.
                            Last edited by blazespinnaker; July 02, 2010, 11:58 PM.

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                            • #15
                              Re: Down the Start-Up Staircase

                              Originally posted by Mn_Mark
                              But I remember all the talk when I was in business school in the 1980s about how the Japanese were the new lords and masters of the business world. They've done well but they've also been in an economic slump for 20 years because of their social characteristics and refusal to let firms fail.
                              I'd just point out that Japan is a smaller nation than the US: population, land area, resources, you name it.

                              China's population is much larger. Its resources are lower. Its arable land area is smaller but not ridiculously so.

                              If China can continue to grow - absolutely it would be impossible for the US to stay ahead in almost any absolute system-level category, any more than the rest of Europe could keep the Germans down.

                              But it doesn't mean that the US cannot continue to enjoy a very comfortable per capita existence - but that still requires systemic reform.

                              Reform which at this moment seems further away than ever.

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