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The G20 and Gold... and how it could really unravel

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  • The G20 and Gold... and how it could really unravel

    I wrote recently that gold's ascension will likely be boosted by sovereign action, and not just market forces as we have seen the past 10 years. James Rickards has an interesting take that he posted on the King World News blog, much of what I believe as well. My view only differs in the ultimate outcome for gold - well over 5K, more likely $10K-20K.

    When the dollar system starts accelerating it's collapse, no amount of printing will be enough to push back the tidal wave. Why? Because the system is collapsing from loss of faith in printing debt backed irredeemable paper. The current system will be viewed as intrinsically worthless. Thus, quantity, or to be more exact, fresh new quantities of money will do little to alleviate the damage. It will be a pointless exercise. How to combat it?

    Back the paper with something real. This will likely be a defensive play on the part of the US. And as I said, all the current planning in the world, by the best minds in the world, is pointless. The planners (academic int'l central banksters) don't realize it's not their methods that are wanting, but it's their religion itself (central planned debt based money) that is in question.

    I see this happening well within 2-5 years. Why? Think of all the ongoing, and severely accelerating upcoming issues that have already begun to unravel in that time frame: Mortgage market, Commercial Real Estate, Pension shortfalls, Social Security and Medicare gaps, Private Equity owned companies facing refinancing issues, the PIIGS, US State and Municipal debts, increasing energy costs, global imbalances reaching tipping points, Triffin dilemma resurfacing, and others... This dam is breaking real time.

    Here's Rickard's article:

    What G20 will not discuss this weekend (but probably should)

    By James G. Rickards

    There's a growing sense that the current global economic "Plan A", i.e. substitute public debt for private debt and use fiscal stimulus to keep economies afloat until private demand kicks in, has failed. Not surprising to many of us; it was destined to fail, but now the reality of that is becoming undeniable so leaders are scrambling for Plan B. For the U.S., Plan B is to double-down on Plan A. Others are not so sure. One problem is timing. There are several Plan B's, but they all take 5-7 years to implement, e.g. yuan as reserve asset, SDR's as a new liquidity source, etc. The two-tier Euro plan is just another Plan B although it might possibly be implemented in 2-3 years rather than 5-7.

    None of these plans is totally ridiculous, but they all suffer from the same weakness which is that they depend on continued faith in paper money in a world where that faith is rapidly eroding. So the meta-political question becomes: can one or more of these plans be implemented faster than the paper currencies collapse? My spot estimate is "no". The avalanche has already started; there is no way to push the snow back uphill; it's just a matter of time before the paper money village below gets buried. Plan A and the the system it represents will collapse before there's time for Plan B.

    This brings us to Plan C of which there are several: (x) chaos, autarky, neomercantilism and heavy-duty protectionism; i.e. playing to win a negative sum game, (y) draconian policy responses including seizure, delegitimization and/or taxation of private gold and forced use of paper money, or (z) gold and commodity backed currencies and a gradual return to stability (albeit with a depression between here and there). Options (x) and (y) more or less speak for themselves. Option (z) is the most interesting because it involves a host of policy choices and political considerations such as: what is the non-deflationary price at which the gold standard should be reestablished (probably $5,000/oz or higher); and who gets to participate and at what levels, (and this is where the true weakness of players like China, India and Brazil comes into sharp relief). Russia is the most interesting case because although it has a relatively small GDP (less than 3% of world GDP) it is a natural resource powerhouse which could play with the big boys in a world of commodity backed currencies. Italy is another interesting case because it is a true gold power (over 2,400 tonnes) although it is frequently lumped in with the Club Med miscreants.

    Given the dynamics and cross currents, a likely scenario consists of elements of all of the above. The U.S. and China will continue to lead the world to a new regime of dollars and yuan as reserve currencies and SDR's plus IMF leverage as the key instrument for increasing world liquidity and settling international payments imbalances. As the system breaks down anyway (because of private demand for gold due to lack of faith in official solutions) one political response will be protectionism (to appease local populations) and efforts at confiscation (to put the gold genie back in the bottle). At that point, and amid the chaos, one or more countries will "go for gold" on their own to preserve wealth and the purchasing power of export income; the most likely axis here is Germany-Russia with Austria, the Netherlands, France and possibly Italy joining in. The German-Russian axis is the most natural in the world because each has what the other needs; technology and manufacturing in the case of Germany and energy and other natural resources in the case of Russia. At that point, the U.S. may have to give up its alternative paper plans and join the gold rush leaving China heavily exposed to collapse because of its shortage of gold relative to GDP. It seems likely that China sees the same scenario which explains its own rush to gold, albeit mostly from captive domestic production in the short run.

    The end result is a chaotic, ad hoc, but nevertheless eventual return to a global gold standard. It would be far better for G20 to set up the processes, study groups and other mechanisms to make this an organized and efficient transition. That is the one thing I do not expect to happen this weekend.
    source: http://kingworldnews.com/kingworldne...n_of_Gold.html

  • #2
    Re: The G20 and Gold... and how it could really unravel

    The problem with the idea of gold becoming money is that it also opens the door to various governments assuming control of the gold within their borders.

    South Koreans voluntarily did this in 1998 to restart their currency; but governments could as easily force all citizens to 'do their part'.

    Similarly there are other possible wrinkles:

    1) Gold is money, but only between national CBs. Thus gold may be worth $5K or $50K, but the only institutions able to use it are the Fed, the ECB, the CBC, etc etc. For everyone else, draconian taxation.

    2) Gold becomes money, but only after confiscation and revaluation.

    I'm sure there are lots of other possibilities.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: The G20 and Gold... and how it could really unravel

      Originally posted by gnk View Post
      I wrote recently that gold's ascension will likely be boosted by sovereign action, and not just market forces as we have seen the past 10 years. James Rickards has an interesting take that he posted on the King World News blog, much of what I believe as well. My view only differs in the ultimate outcome for gold - well over 5K, more likely $10K-20K.

      When the dollar system starts accelerating it's collapse, no amount of printing will be enough to push back the tidal wave. Why? Because the system is collapsing from loss of faith in printing debt backed irredeemable paper. The current system will be viewed as intrinsically worthless. Thus, quantity, or to be more exact, fresh new quantities of money will do little to alleviate the damage. It will be a pointless exercise. How to combat it?

      Back the paper with something real. This will likely be a defensive play on the part of the US. And as I said, all the current planning in the world, by the best minds in the world, is pointless. The planners (academic int'l central banksters) don't realize it's not their methods that are wanting, but it's their religion itself (central planned debt based money) that is in question.

      I see this happening well within 2-5 years. Why? Think of all the ongoing, and severely accelerating upcoming issues that have already begun to unravel in that time frame: Mortgage market, Commercial Real Estate, Pension shortfalls, Social Security and Medicare gaps, Private Equity owned companies facing refinancing issues, the PIIGS, US State and Municipal debts, increasing energy costs, global imbalances reaching tipping points, Triffin dilemma resurfacing, and others... This dam is breaking real time.

      Here's Rickard's article:



      source: http://kingworldnews.com/kingworldne...n_of_Gold.html
      wow. reads like a goldbug doomer porn. any substance to any of this or pure speculation? rickards know anyone who knows anything? whatever happened to the gold/silver manipulation story?

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: The G20 and Gold... and how it could really unravel

        Originally posted by metalman View Post
        wow. reads like a goldbug doomer porn. any substance to any of this or pure speculation? rickards know anyone who knows anything? whatever happened to the gold/silver manipulation story?
        Honestly, I view this primarily as a geopolitical development. Gold is a sideshow and a means to an end. The era of complete US dominance post Soviet collapse is over. Remember Fukuyama's "The End of History" or Project for a New American Century? Those ideas have less credibility than gold/silver manipulation, which I think exists.

        That hubris is gone.

        And with the decline of that era, so too goes the US paper dollar standard.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: The G20 and Gold... and how it could really unravel

          Originally posted by c1ue View Post
          The problem with the idea of gold becoming money is that it also opens the door to various governments assuming control of the gold within their borders.

          South Koreans voluntarily did this in 1998 to restart their currency; but governments could as easily force all citizens to 'do their part'.

          Similarly there are other possible wrinkles:

          1) Gold is money, but only between national CBs. Thus gold may be worth $5K or $50K, but the only institutions able to use it are the Fed, the ECB, the CBC, etc etc. For everyone else, draconian taxation.

          2) Gold becomes money, but only after confiscation and revaluation.

          I'm sure there are lots of other possibilities.
          I agree that's a potential problem - but for the goldholding public, not the governments. No matter how you look at this current crisis, governments around the world will have to do some unconventional things. A crisis such as the current one is not resolved with conventional means. No matter what happens, there will be a lot of pissed off people.

          But I believe that when the system collapses, the US will cease to print debt based paper, and to make up for the lost currency wealth, will exchange gold for dollars. Will they tax it? Will they force people to exchange their gold? Maybe. But in the end, I think people holding gold will still be better off than people holding debt based currencies. It's relative. I've said it before, I don't think people holding gold will necessarily have rockstar wealth. But they will be better off then without it.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: The G20 and Gold... and how it could really unravel

            Germany has invaded Russia twice this past century, and tens of millions of Russians died because of it. No matter how well their economies would mesh together, I don't see them being close partners any time soon..

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: The G20 and Gold... and how it could really unravel

              Originally posted by gnk
              But I believe that when the system collapses, the US will cease to print debt based paper, and to make up for the lost currency wealth, will exchange gold for dollars.
              If the system collapses, I suspect a lot more than the currency is going to be re-examined.

              Past historical examples are not encouraging: not once has revaluation (to my knowledge) after a collapse involve gold. Weimar Germany for example replaced one crap fiat currency with another (not so crap) fiat currency.

              Sure, they got Hitler as part of the package, but you can't make an omelette without breaking eggs...

              Furthermore from my view, the real problem isn't the dollars of wealth per se, it is the dollars of debt. There are also many ways by which dollars of debt can be eroded without exactly corresponding effects on dollars of wealth.

              Don't get me wrong - I do believe holding at least some gold is absolutely the right thing to do, though personally I believe simply being prepared to leave is the best solution if indeed everything falls apart.

              But gold tunnel vision may prevent understanding of the risks also involved.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: The G20 and Gold... and how it could really unravel

                Originally posted by c1ue View Post
                If the system collapses, I suspect a lot more than the currency is going to be re-examined.

                Past historical examples are not encouraging: not once has revaluation (to my knowledge) after a collapse involve gold. Weimar Germany for example replaced one crap fiat currency with another (not so crap) fiat currency.

                Sure, they got Hitler as part of the package, but you can't make an omelette without breaking eggs...

                Furthermore from my view, the real problem isn't the dollars of wealth per se, it is the dollars of debt. There are also many ways by which dollars of debt can be eroded without exactly corresponding effects on dollars of wealth.

                Don't get me wrong - I do believe holding at least some gold is absolutely the right thing to do, though personally I believe simply being prepared to leave is the best solution if indeed everything falls apart.

                But gold tunnel vision may prevent understanding of the risks also involved.
                Never in the history of the world has global trade been conducted 100% in debt based fiat money as it has been these past 40 years. Never. Thus, you cannot draw from the past.

                Right now there are countries that export natural resources and manufactured goods. Many of these countries accumulate a surplus. Then you have countries that consume more than they export based on a debt paradigm that is falling apart. One day, the surplus exporting countries will say no more. We want the real thing. I just don't see an SDR based on crap currencies alone filling this void.

                The US, as a net importer will have no choice.

                Here's a great article by Hugo Salinas Price on how leaving the gold standard helped create the global imbalances we see today. I may not agree with everything he says, but overall, he's spot on:

                http://www.plata.com.mx/mplata/artic...idarticulo=161

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: The G20 and Gold... and how it could really unravel

                  I think that almost all the players who matter in this are co-opted by big finance. And none of them want a currency linked to gold. America, check, Europe, check, Japan, check. For these debtor countries the reasons are obvious for not wanting a gold tether. But even China, who has the most to gain in any new global system, will not want a gold based system. It behooves them, at least their oligarchy, to play along with the wishes of the Trilateral Commission because they hold a shitload of US debt. If the fiat system fails, and a gold based system is failure, the ruling "communist" party likely loses the power of that cash and so they fail. Then they have to deal with a billion pissed farmers in a halfway industrialized country which didn't go well last time. If they all play nice together, each region gets a place at the BIS table and the ruling parties still get to buy the nicest flowers for their mistresses.

                  Really the only player I see who matters who isn't necessarily on board right now is Russia. Who knows what Putin's real agenda is. It is kind of ironic, considering what Yeltsin did. Iran, North Korea and Venezuela are smaller players in comparison.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: The G20 and Gold... and how it could really unravel

                    I saw this on ZeroHedge today:

                    http://www.zerohedge.com/article/key...nda-comic-book

                    "Also, as Jon Hilsenrath will hopefully inform his audience with an at least 24 hour advance notice, the Fed is likely currently contemplating using its legislative branch (i.e., Congress) to pass laws allowing negative interest rates, and making hoarding of money and gold a felony."
                    Last edited by raja; June 22, 2010, 09:41 AM.
                    raja
                    Boycott Big Banks • Vote Out Incumbents

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: The G20 and Gold... and how it could really unravel

                      Originally posted by Jay View Post
                      I think that almost all the players who matter in this are co-opted by big finance. And none of them want a currency linked to gold. America, check, Europe, check, Japan, check. For these debtor countries the reasons are obvious for not wanting a gold tether. But even China, who has the most to gain in any new global system, will not want a gold based system. It behooves them, at least their oligarchy, to play along with the wishes of the Trilateral Commission because they hold a shitload of US debt. If the fiat system fails, and a gold based system is failure, the ruling "communist" party likely loses the power of that cash and so they fail. Then they have to deal with a billion pissed farmers in a halfway industrialized country which didn't go well last time. If they all play nice together, each region gets a place at the BIS table and the ruling parties still get to buy the nicest flowers for their mistresses.

                      Really the only player I see who matters who isn't necessarily on board right now is Russia. Who knows what Putin's real agenda is. It is kind of ironic, considering what Yeltsin did. Iran, North Korea and Venezuela are smaller players in comparison.
                      When the system goes, so too does high finance's influence.

                      There is a breakdown in supranational cooperation. It's evident in how Merkel views Obama, how most of the G20 recently told Geithner to pound sand, and in Norway's foreign minister's recent remarks.

                      Don't be misled by the smiling photo ops.

                      The G20 will be an abysmal failure, and gold will be the wild card just before the SHTF. All existing issues relating to gold will be irrelevant when the system begins to crash. Gold is the only flotation device in this Titanic of a global economy.

                      Gold is the only way to rebalance the world, not more debt. The issues you raise exist so long as the current system exists.

                      You bring up a good point about China. But why do you think China has been telling its people to buy gold? And do you really think that the current system won't create the disaster you foresee in China? It will do just that, and that's when gold kicks in. This is just conjecture: but China has a lot more gold than they are admitting.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: The G20 and Gold... and how it could really unravel

                        Originally posted by raja View Post
                        I am seeing this link as a broken link to abovetopsecret.com, not as the link you intended to Zerohedge

                        However I cannot post the correct zerohedge link in this reply, because everytime I attempt to do so, as soon as I click on "Preview Post", the link is changed automagically to the incorrect abovetopsecret.com link.

                        To find this Zerohedge article, anyone reading this will have to manually replace "abovetopsecret" with "zerohedge" in their browser (near the top, where you can write in the URL of the page you want to view.)

                        Aw heck -- I cannot even write in "zerohedge DOT com" (with " DOT " replaced by the single period, aka dot, aka full-stop, character) in this post. Every instance of "zerohedge DOT com" is automatically altered as soon as I "Preview Post" to "abovetopsecret.com". This is bizarre. I am seeing this bizarre behaviour using both Firefox and Opera browsers, so I don't think it is a browser problem.

                        My working hypothesis is that the iTulip.com forum software has some new rule automatically rewriting on the fly any "zerohedge DOT com" to "abovetopsecret DOT com"

                        Hmm ... let's see if using HTML ASCII character codes, such as "." for the period character can escape this URL rewriting rule: zerohedge.com

                        Yes - that works! So the correct zerohedge link you intended in your post is: Keynesianism For Kretins (sic): The New York Fed Launches Propaganda Comic Book. I manually entered this correct link by replacing a DOT character with "." to get past this bizarre rewriting rule (presumably in the iTulip forum software.)
                        Last edited by ThePythonicCow; June 22, 2010, 12:30 PM.
                        Most folks are good; a few aren't.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: The G20 and Gold... and how it could really unravel

                          Originally posted by raja View Post
                          I saw this on ZeroHedge today:

                          http://www.zerohedge.com/article/key...nda-comic-book

                          "Also, as Jon Hilsenrath will hopefully inform his audience with an at least 24 hour advance notice, the Fed is likely currently contemplating using its legislative branch (i.e., Congress) to pass laws allowing negative interest rates, and making hoarding of money and gold a felony."
                          I read that as Zerodhedge extreme hyperbolic sarcasm. It's a jab at Hilsenrath, the WSJ's "Fed Watcher." Remember, he wrote the article on why Bernanke was "puzzled" by gold's rise. LOL...

                          http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2010/...by-gold-rally/

                          A better article in my view, on the same topic, which contains facts, and critical thinking, unlike the WSJ's Hilsenrath:

                          http://www.nysun.com/editorials/paul...uestion/86997/

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: The G20 and Gold... and how it could really unravel

                            Originally posted by gnk
                            Here's a great article by Hugo Salinas Price on how leaving the gold standard helped create the global imbalances we see today. I may not agree with everything he says, but overall, he's spot on:
                            I'll read the Price article, but this statement you've made is just plain wrong.

                            In the Roman era, Rome had massive imbalances with the rest of its empire (Bread and Circuses).

                            Ditto Spain and the New World gold and silver.

                            And again with Pax Brittanica and the Empire's skewed excise tax system (less to export to Britain, more for everywhere).

                            Each of these examples shows a different way by which global trade was skewed - and each of these was political, not economic.

                            For that matter the breaking of Bretton Woods and the last vestiges of a gold standard was itself because of skewed spending by the United States.

                            And lastly the breaking of Bretton Woods was NOT unprecedented even in modern times. Britain went off the gold standard itself in 1914 to pay for its part in WW I as did the US government. In both cases the gold standard returned, but that era was different in that the entire rest of the world was gold standard, and in fact the gold standard was merely 'suspended' as opposed to abolished. Monetization/QE was in fact a common practice in the World Wars era.

                            Originally posted by gnk
                            You bring up a good point about China. But why do you think China has been telling its people to buy gold? And do you really think that the current system won't create the disaster you foresee in China? It will do just that, and that's when gold kicks in. This is just conjecture: but China has a lot more gold than they are admitting.
                            You may have noted that China, followed by Europe, are in fact the 2 countries with the WORST money supply to gold ratios. Thus my view is that your point above isn't nearly as strong as you think.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: The G20 and Gold... and how it could really unravel

                              I'll respond after you read the article. You may or may not, choose to rewrite what you wrote above. You may also want to re-read what I wrote.

                              Comment

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