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The Limits of the Welfare State

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  • The Limits of the Welfare State

    Today, as it has been for a century, American politics is an argument between two Princetonians -- James Madison, class of 1771, and Woodrow Wilson, class of 1879. Madison was the most profound thinker among the Founders. Wilson, avatar of "progressivism," was the first President critical of the nation's founding. Barack Obama's Wilsonian agenda reflects its namesake's rejection of limited government.

    Lack of "a limiting principle" is the essence of progressivism, according to William Voegeli, contributing editor of the Claremont Review of Books, in his new book "Never Enough: America's Limitless Welfare State." The Founders, he writes, believed that free government's purpose, and the threats to it, is found in nature. The threats are desires for untrammeled power, desires which, Madison said, are "sown in the nature of man." Government's limited purpose is to protect the exercise of natural rights that pre-exist government, rights that human reason can ascertain in unchanging principles of conduct and that are essential to the pursuit of happiness.

    Wilsonian progressives believe that History is a proper noun, an autonomous thing. It, rather than nature, defines government's ever-evolving and unlimited purposes. Government exists to dispense an ever-expanding menu of rights -- entitlements that serve an open-ended understanding of material and even spiritual well-being.

    The name "progressivism" implies criticism of the Founding, which we leave behind as we make progress. And the name is tautological: History is progressive because progress is defined as whatever History produces. History guarantees what the Supreme Court has called "evolving standards of decency that mark the progress of a maturing society."

    The cheerful assumption is that "evolving" must mean "improving." Progressivism's promise is a program for every problem, and progressivism's premise is that every unfulfilled desire is a problem.

    Franklin Roosevelt, an alumnus of Wilson's administration, resolved to "resume" Wilson's "march along the path of real progress" by giving government "the vibrant personal character that is the very embodiment of human charity." He repudiated the Founders' idea that government is instituted to protect pre-existing and timeless natural rights, promising "the redefinition of these rights in terms of a changing and growing social order."

    He promised "a right to make a comfortable living." Presumably, the judiciary would define and enforce the delivery of comfort. Specifically, there could be no right to "do anything which deprives others" of whatever "elemental rights" the government decides to dispense.

    Today, government finds the limitless power of dispensing not in Madison's Constitution of limited government, but in Wilson's theory that the Constitution actually frees government from limitations. The liberating -- for government -- idea is that the Constitution is a "living," evolving document. Wilson's Constitution is an emancipation proclamation for government, empowering it to regulate all human activities in order to treat all human desires as needs and hence as rights. Unlimited power is entailed by what Voegeli calls government's "right to discover new rights."

    "Liberalism's protean understanding of rights," he says, "complicates and ultimately dooms the idea of a principled refusal to elevate any benefit that we would like people to enjoy to the status of an inviolable right." Needs breed rights to have the needs addressed, to the point that Lyndon Johnson, an FDR protege, promised that government would provide Americans with "purpose" and "meaning."

    Although progressivism's ever-lengthening list of rights is as limitless as human needs/desires, one right that never makes the list is the right to keep some inviolable portion of one's private wealth or income, "regardless," Voegeli says, "of the lofty purposes social reformers wish to make of it." Lacking a limiting principle, progressivism cannot say how big the welfare state should be, but must always say that it should be bigger than it currently is. Furthermore, by making a welfare state a fountain of rights requisite for democracy, progressives, in effect, declare that democratic deliberation about the legitimacy of the welfare state is illegitimate.

    "By blackening the skies with crisscrossing dollars," Voegeli says, the welfare state encourages people "to believe an impossibility: that every household can be a net importer of the wealth redistributed by the government." But the welfare state's problem, today becoming vivid, is socialism's problem, as Margaret Thatcher defined it: Socialist governments "always run out of other people's money."

    Wilsonian government, meaning (in Wilson's words) government with "unstinted power," is hostile to Madison's Constitution which, Madison said, obliges government "to control itself." Thus our choice is between government restraint rooted in respect for nature, or government free to follow History wherever government says History marches.

    http://www.unionleader.com/article.a...d-5b8184c80abd
    Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read. -Groucho

  • #2
    Re: The Limits of the Welfare State

    The perspective of this article, unfortunately, is completely wrong.

    In fact Madison was far more sympathetic to Alexander Hamilton and the Federalists than Jefferson's ideals - at least by the end of his political career.

    Madison was responsible for a war (1812), the 2nd Bank of the United States, a strong import tariff, and a strong military.

    Sound familiar?

    The fact also is that the Federalists were very much a real power in the US government from the very beginning - 'Progressivism' as supposedly begun by Wilson is no more than a version of the Federalist creed.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: The Limits of the Welfare State

      Originally posted by c1ue View Post
      The perspective of this article, unfortunately, is completely wrong.
      You're good, c1ue; responding to Master Shake a minute before he posts.

      (Well, more likely, this is more evidence that this forum software has trouble keeping track of the time.)

      I wouldn't say that the article Master Shake posted was completely wrong. The dichotomy it speaks of, between limited and expansive government, seems reasonable. Moreover, I find it hard to believe that James Madison, or any of the other Founding Fathers of the United States, would have endorsed the expansive social liberal policies of Wilson, FDR or thereafter.Hamilton may have been more Federalists than Jefferson, but (1) I would have figured that all those Founding Fathers advocated at most a Federal government of limited and enumerated powers, and (2) James Madison was in Jefferson's (anti-Federal) Democratic-Republican Party, not Hamilton's Federalist Party.

      But I'm not a historian ... perhaps I've been led astray by the right wing propaganda in which I steeped myself during a prior decade.
      Most folks are good; a few aren't.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: The Limits of the Welfare State

        Originally posted by TPC
        Hamilton may have been more Federalists than Jefferson, but (1) I would have figured that all those Founding Fathers advocated at most a Federal government of limited and enumerated powers, and (2) James Madison was in Jefferson's (anti-Federal) Democratic-Republican Party, not Hamilton's Federalist Party.
        In a literal sense, you are certainly correct.

        But it is wrong to assert beliefs to the Founding Fathers from a modern world which is completely different.

        There are many examples of this - including female suffragism, slavery, urbanization, and so forth.

        In the context of a primarily rural, relatively hard scrabble, agrarian society - female suffragism is potentially understandably ignored. For a pre-fossil fuel/combustion engine farmer, upper body strength is extremely important as is sheer physical capability.

        While certainly some women can compare to men in physical prowess, the physiological fact is that on average they cannot.

        In a modern society, however, physical strength is absolutely not a major factor.

        Thus in a modern society, it makes little sense to subjugate half of your population - and it is equally impossible to maintain said subjugation while simultaneously assigning greater education, income-gathering, and personal responsibility.

        The same arguments can be applied to human slavery. To be brutally honest, in modern society it is far cheaper to hire an unskilled laborer for an hourly wage than it is to provide housing, food, health care, etc etc.

        But the strong federal government which was advocated by the Federalists is very much the progenitor of our modern government; in contrast the 'checks and balances' government envisioned by Jefferson has been in continual decline.

        Madison - for the record - was influenced by Jefferson early on, no doubt as Jefferson was a powerful and charismatic figure in his own right. But the further Madison progressed in his personal power, the further he moved from Jefferson's ideals.

        The examples I put forward on what Madison did clearly illustrate this: Jefferson would never have condoned the creation of a National Bank or the (excise) taxation required to maintain a large military.

        And while I do agree the Founding Fathers were probably not much on institutional welfare, on the other hand it is not safe to say that a Federalist founding father would not have embraced welfare as a means to justify or maintain a strong central government.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: The Limits of the Welfare State

          Originally posted by Master Shake View Post
          Lacking a limiting principle, progressivism cannot say how big the welfare state should be, but must always say that it should be bigger than it currently is. Furthermore, by making a welfare state a fountain of rights requisite for democracy, progressives, in effect, declare that democratic deliberation about the legitimacy of the welfare state is illegitimate.

          "By blackening the skies with crisscrossing dollars," Voegeli says, the welfare state encourages people "to believe an impossibility: that every household can be a net importer of the wealth redistributed by the government." But the welfare state's problem, today becoming vivid, is socialism's problem, as Margaret Thatcher defined it: Socialist governments "always run out of other people's money."
          This is very well put. Great article.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: The Limits of the Welfare State

            The problem with your argument - that we shouldn't take the Founders too seriously or limit our progressive agenda based on their Constitution because "things are different now" - is that it ignores the fact that the Founders explicitly provided a way for the Constitution to evolve with the times: amendment. That is how women got the vote and slavery was abolished. The framework the Founders provided worked just as they envisioned.

            But the Progressives long ago learned how to circumvent the need to amend the Constitution in order to grow government's powers. The figured out that all they had to do was get Supreme Court justices in place to rule that there are things like "penumbras" and other neat tricks for the Supreme Court to legislate changes that progressives could never get into the Constitution legitimately through the amendment process.

            Progressives have so thoroughly perverted that process that no one even considers amendments anymore. When the progressives failed to get the Equal Rights Amendment ratified, they went whole-hog for the Supreme-Court-as-legislator approach. The whole battle now is over the ideology of who gets on the Supreme Court, because the progressives have degraded our system to the point that that is where the real action is now. There was a poll of congressmen asking them what the federal government did not have the power to do. An alarming percentage of them said there was nothing the government couldn't do. The Constitution is a dead letter - other than the few remaining limitations contained in the few amendments that aren't outright ignored (1st, 2nd, 4th) - progressives have succeeded in giving the federal government essentially unlimited power. (And they're working on eliminating the 2nd amendment.)

            So don't tell us about how things are different now and the Founders' vision was too limited. They provided a perfectly reasonable, civil method for the Constitution to evolve. It's the progressives that have side-stepped and undermined our Constitution in their desire to give government essentially unlimited power.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: The Limits of the Welfare State

              Originally posted by Mn_Mark
              The problem with your argument - that we shouldn't take the Founders too seriously or limit our progressive agenda based on their Constitution because "things are different now" - is that it ignores the fact that the Founders explicitly provided a way for the Constitution to evolve with the times: amendment. That is how women got the vote and slavery was abolished. The framework the Founders provided worked just as they envisioned.
              You misconstrue my point completely. The issue wasn't the sacredness of the Constitution; this was never in the discussion at all.

              The issue was the motivation of the Founding Fathers in context of Federalism vs. Statism as a litmus test for Madison's beliefs.

              And as for your assertion that the Founders provided a way to modify the Constitution - absolutely true.

              But as California has discovered, having a 2/3rds requirement for change doesn't work well when the changes necessary are unpleasant. The passage of the 13th Amendment would never have succeeded pre-Civil War; it only succeeded post-Civil War due to the North effectively owning the entire societal and governmental infrastructure of the South.

              My secondary point was simply that from a historical perspective - changing conditions of society itself would eventually have resulted in the same laws. Slavery doesn't exist anywhere in the 1st or even 2nd world now simply because it makes zero sense and has zero economic benefit (in fact negative).

              Originally posted by Mn_Mark
              So don't tell us about how things are different now and the Founders' vision was too limited. They provided a perfectly reasonable, civil method for the Constitution to evolve. It's the progressives that have side-stepped and undermined our Constitution in their desire to give government essentially unlimited power.
              Again, your ideology is interfering with your reading ability.

              I've never said the vision of the Founding Fathers was limited - merely that it could not possibly have encompassed conditions that exist today. Were the same individuals emplaced in modern society, they would likely have acted differently.

              Secondly your view that it is the 'progressives' who somehow are responsible for what is happening today is equally blinkered:

              'Progressivism' in the sense of the article is not the same as Progressivism in a social sense. What is really meant in the article is exactly Federalism in the Founding Father sense, but in the service of a specific social goal. It is, however, quite possible to be progressive without being Federalist.

              I do agree completely that present federal government is far too powerful - but its evolution to its present state is not merely a function of 'Progressivism' as defined in the article.

              Bureaucracy itself is a powerful growth mechanism.

              Returning again to the article - my points still stand: the 'Madisonian' government referenced is neither what the article says it is, nor is true Jeffersonian limited government truly the antidote to the supposed straw man version of 'Progressivism' put forth.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: The Limits of the Welfare State

                Originally posted by Mn_Mark View Post
                The problem with your argument - that we shouldn't take the Founders too seriously or limit our progressive agenda based on their Constitution because "things are different now" - is that it ignores the fact that the Founders explicitly provided a way for the Constitution to evolve with the times: amendment. That is how women got the vote and slavery was abolished. The framework the Founders provided worked just as they envisioned.

                But the Progressives long ago learned how to circumvent the need to amend the Constitution in order to grow government's powers. The figured out that all they had to do was get Supreme Court justices in place to rule that there are things like "penumbras" and other neat tricks for the Supreme Court to legislate changes that progressives could never get into the Constitution legitimately through the amendment process.

                Progressives have so thoroughly perverted that process that no one even considers amendments anymore. When the progressives failed to get the Equal Rights Amendment ratified, they went whole-hog for the Supreme-Court-as-legislator approach. The whole battle now is over the ideology of who gets on the Supreme Court, because the progressives have degraded our system to the point that that is where the real action is now. There was a poll of congressmen asking them what the federal government did not have the power to do. An alarming percentage of them said there was nothing the government couldn't do. The Constitution is a dead letter - other than the few remaining limitations contained in the few amendments that aren't outright ignored (1st, 2nd, 4th) - progressives have succeeded in giving the federal government essentially unlimited power. (And they're working on eliminating the 2nd amendment.)

                So don't tell us about how things are different now and the Founders' vision was too limited. They provided a perfectly reasonable, civil method for the Constitution to evolve. It's the progressives that have side-stepped and undermined our Constitution in their desire to give government essentially unlimited power.
                With all due respect to c1ue, whose opinions I respect, I have to agree with Mark in the points he just made.
                I've watched it steadily unfold for the past forty years and what Mark says here is accurate.

                I fear that the end result of the circumvention of the legislative process together with the Federal government assuming and granting to itself non-enumerated powers is going to eventuate in the breakup of our country.
                Last edited by Raz; June 05, 2010, 11:53 AM. Reason: spelling; replacing (unintended) smilie

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: The Limits of the Welfare State

                  Originally posted by Raz View Post
                  With all due respect to c1ue, whose opinions I respect, I have to agree with Mark in the points he just made.
                  I've watched it steadily unfold for the past forty years and what Mark says here is accurate.

                  I fear that the end result of the circumvention of the legislative process together with the Federal government assuming and granting to itself un-numerated powers is going to eventuate in the breakup of our country.
                  Forty years? what about us young ones who have to live with this crap for the next 40?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: The Limits of the Welfare State

                    Originally posted by chr5648 View Post
                    Forty years? what about us young ones who have to live with this crap for the next 40?
                    I thought you young ones were the ones who were supposed to fix this crap, not live with it.

                    My parents saved the world (WWII)

                    My generation (the baby boomers, now entering retirement) dorked it up, big time .

                    The next generation got all cynical and WTF, over ?

                    Your generation (if you are in your 20's or 30's) is supposed to save it again .

                    I'm just hoping to stay sufficiently healthy and alert long enough to see you guys pull off this miracle. It should be quite a show .
                    Most folks are good; a few aren't.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: The Limits of the Welfare State

                      Originally posted by ThePythonicCow View Post
                      I thought you young ones were the ones who were supposed to fix this crap, not live with it.

                      My parents saved the world (WWII)

                      My generation (the baby boomers, now entering retirement) dorked it up, big time .

                      The next generation got all cynical and WTF, over ?

                      Your generation (if you are in your 20's or 30's) is supposed to save it again .
                      You have got to be sh*tting yourself, its hard to explain but you would have to 'hang out' with the new generation of idiots to see how doomed we are. I have absolutely no faith in the next guys up to the plate. I expect the same as past generations in terms of the economic and political structure.

                      I'm just hoping to stay sufficiently healthy and alert long enough to see you guys pull off this miracle. It should be quite a show .
                      The tv has shows, this is real life.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: The Limits of the Welfare State

                        I think it is fair to say that over time and for whatever reason, America has built a large and sprawling central government. The only thing that keeps America from being an "official" socialist state is the presence of a gaggle of highly advanced industrial nations with even bigger, broader central governments. It is all relative.

                        The ongoing conflict between "Madison" and "Wilson" in America has become an academic one. An academic one that poisons social policy with rancor, and provides a permanent split down the middle of America. A purely theoretical pastime in as much as there will be no reversing the course of "social welfare" in the industrial world, not without the permission of the billion or so humans who know the world in no other terms. The generations who inherit America will, through the context of their new "normal", solve this fissure by abandoning the founders to history once and for all.
                        ScreamBucket.com

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: The Limits of the Welfare State

                          Originally posted by chr5648 View Post
                          You have got to be sh*tting yourself, its hard to explain but you would have to 'hang out' with the new generation of idiots to see how doomed we are. I have absolutely no faith in the next guys up to the plate. I expect the same as past generations in terms of the economic and political structure.



                          The tv has shows, this is real life.
                          10 points for creative use of the new emoticons...

                          all this talk of 'kids these days' not qualified to fix the mess their parents left behind... stresses me out...

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: The Limits of the Welfare State

                            Originally posted by metalman View Post
                            10 points for creative use of the new emoticons...
                            Thanks.

                            Originally posted by metalman View Post
                            all this talk of 'kids these days' not qualified to fix the mess their parents left behind... stresses me out...
                            Yeah, that's a problem. chr5648 may be right.
                            Most folks are good; a few aren't.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: The Limits of the Welfare State

                              Originally posted by chr5648 View Post
                              You have got to be sh*tting yourself, its hard to explain but you would have to 'hang out' with the new generation of idiots to see how doomed we are. I have absolutely no faith in the next guys up to the plate. I expect the same as past generations in terms of the economic and political structure.
                              “Children today are tyrants. They contradict their parents, gobble their food, and tyrannize their teachers.” Socrates

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