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  • #31
    Re: Article : why debt growth must exceed interest payments

    From the begining of Part-II of Hudson's paper

    The past century’s economic schoolbooks have described a universe running down from entropy. Production is assumed to be plagued by diminishing returns, so that each additional unit of input produces less and less output. Even if technology were recognized to raise the productivity of labor, capital and land over time, neoclassical models hold that each additional unit of consumption or wealth yields diminishing psychological utility.[1] Not only will economies grow less rapidly, they will feel poorer.

    Large parts of the population in many countries are indeed becoming poorer and forced into debt, but the pessimistic assumptions cited above make no reference to debt. Their seeming independence from finance – and from social policies to deal with debt problems and wealth distribution – is supposed to make economics scientific. And if the subject is to be a science, of course, it must adopt the scientific hallmark, mathematics. Unfortunately, the only way for economic models to produce a mathematically solvable equilibrium is to use physical production functions that slow down and psychological wealth-seeking utility functions that dissipate rather than become addictive. Economic technocrats thus are taught to use mathematics in a wrongheaded way at the outset, while ignoring the exponential mathematics of debt and the asset-price inflation it feeds.

    This blind spot of “learned ignorance” has created economic devastation from Russia and Japan to third world debtor countries. Today’s academic curriculum teaches models that fail to recognize how the economy’s debt overhead mounts up to produce financial shocks. Also ignored is the degree to which wage-earners and industrial investors find a rising share of their incomes diverted to pay debt service. The way to get rich today is not by earning wages and profits, but to benefit passively from the inflation of real estate and other asset prices as interest is credited and other new savings are recycled into mortgage and stock market loans. But even if economic theory recognized these dynamics, the national income and product accounts (NIPA) do not include capital gains, so there is no clear basis for giving a quantitative sense of proportion to the financial, insurance and real estate (FIRE) sector vis-à-vis the rest of the economy.

    The neglect of debt is curious, for the subject was placed at the center of economic and indeed, religious policy for most of civilization’s past four thousand years. The mercantile debts and rural usury of Bronze Age Babylonia and classical Greece and Rome saw the accrual of interest double and redouble the sums due, leading to expropriation of indebted families and forcing them into bondage. From feudal Europe’s papal bankers to the emergence of large-scale Dutch, English and French finance capital, the expansion path of public as well as private debts has soared off the charts toward infinity. Money is saved and reinvested to grow without end, regardless of the economy’s ability to pay. Yet the mathematics describing the growth of interest-bearing debt on an economy-wide basis are missing from today’s macroeconomic policy models.

    What the Babylonians recognized that modern economists don’t

    Mathematics played a major role in training the scribes of Sumer and Babylonia. Most of them were employed in palace and temple bookkeeping, so their schoolbook exercises included manpower allocation problems such as calculations of how many men were needed to produce a given amount of bricks or dig canals of a given size, the expected growth of herds and the doubling times of investments lent out at interest.[2] Surprising as it may seem to modern readers, this mathematical training four thousand years ago was more relevant for dealing with society’s debt overhead than is that given to economics graduates today, for it dealt with exponential functions (as well as astronomical computations and even quadratic equations).

    When U.S. bank lending rates peaked at 20 percent in 1980, they reached what had been the normal commercial interest rate from Sumer c. 2500 BC through the Neo-Babylonian epoch in the first millennium. In fact, when Alexander the Great conquered the Near East in 331 BC, the rate had remained remarkably stable at the equivalent of 20 percent for more than two thousand years. It had not been set with any particular reference to profit levels or the ability to pay, but was a matter of mathematical convenience, reflecting the Mesopotamian way of computing fractions by division into 60ths. A bushel of barley was divided into 60 “quarts,” and a mina-weight was composed of 60 shekels. Paying interest at the rate of 1/60th each month added up to 12/60ths per year, or 20 percent in modern decimal notation. A mina lent out at this rate would produce 60 shekels in five years, doubling the original principal.

    A model Babylonian scribal exercise from around 2000 BC appears in the Berlin cuneiform text (VAT 8528). It asks the student to calculate how long it will take for a mina of silver to double at the normal rate of one shekel per mina per month. The answer is five years at simple interest. And in fact, the common practice was to lend long-distance traders money for this five-year period. Assyrian trade contracts c. 1900 BC, for instance, typically called for investors to advance 2 minas of gold, getting back 4 in five years. Elsewhere in Mesopotamia commercial contracts normally were denominated in silver, but the interest rate was the same.

    This idea that doubling times were determined by the rate of interest was well enough understood to be given a popular imagery. “If wealth is placed where it bears interest, it comes back to you redoubled,”[3] an Egyptian proverb observes. Another compares making a loan to having a baby, viewing the reproduction of numbers in sexual terms. The word for “interest” in every ancient language meant a newborn, either a goat-kind (mash) in Sumerian and the Akkadian language used by the Babylonians, or a young calf – tokos in Greek or foenus in Latin. The “kid” or “calf” was born of silver or gold, not by borrowed cattle as some economists once believed, missing the metaphor at work. What was born was the “baby” fraction of the principal, 1/60th. And only when these accruals of interest had grown to be as large as their parent, after the fifth year, were they deemed “adult” enough begin having new interest “babies” on their own, for everyone knows that only adults can reproduce themselves. Thus, compounding began only after the principal had reproduced itself by the time 60 months had passed. Investors who wanted to keep their loans growing had to draw up new loan contracts.

    How long could the process go on at these rates? A relevant scribal problem (VAT 8525) asks how long it will take for one mina to become 64, that is, 26. The solution involves calculating powers of 2 (22 = 4, 23 = 8 and so forth).[4] A mina multiplies fourfold in 10 years, eightfold in 15 years, sixteenfold in 20 years, and 64 times in 30 years, that is, six times the basic five‑year doubling period, expressed in modern notation as 26.

    Traders and merchants were able to pay such rates out of their business gains, but serious problems occurred in the agricultural sphere, especially when crops failed or military hostilities interrupted the harvest. Matters were aggravated by the fact that interest rates were higher and more extortionate in the rural sector. The most typical rate was 33 1/3 percent, evidently reflecting the normal sharecropping rate of a third of the crop. Rates of 50 or even 100 percent might be charged, often for only short periods of time. Creditors (mainly palace collectors or other officials) demanded whatever they could get when they found cultivators in distress conditions. Sharecroppers or other individuals who were unable to break even or pay their stipulated rents or fees to the palace were forced to borrow out of need found that once they ran into debt, it was difficult to extricate themselves. The problem was that rural loans were made to pay taxes or get by hard times, not to acquire property or finance investment. Thus, instead of financing the acquisition of property, rural usury led to its forfeiture.

    At the interest rate of 33 1/3 percent, Babylonian agricultural debts doubled in three years. Probably reflecting this fact, §117 of Hammurapi’s laws (c. 1750 BC) stipulates that after three years of service, by which time the creditor had received interest equal to the original debt, it should be deemed to have been paid and the bondservant liberated to rejoin the debtor’s family. The implication is that doubling the debt principal represented a moral and indeed, practical limit, largely because it was recognized how quickly debts grew to exceed the rural economy’s ability to pay. Indeed, at no time in history has output grown at sustained rates approaching the typical 33 1/3 percent rate of interest charged for agricultural loans, or even the commercial 20 percent rate. When the loan proceeds were used for consumption or to pay tax arrears, interest charges ate into the needy cultivator’s modest resources, obliging him to pay sums growing exponentially beyond his ability to produce. Under these conditions, creditors were enabled to draw into their own hands the debtor’s family members as bondservants, followed by the land and other assets. This threatened to polarize society self-destructively by expropriating the citizen-army that traditionally supported itself on the land.
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    From Part - I

    Today’s economists have a problem analyzing the relationship between the debt overhead and the capacity to pay. Academic orthodoxy holds that economies can adjust to any volume of debt, given sufficient price and income flexibility to facilitate the transfer of revenue and assets to creditors. What is not recognized is that the resulting economic polarization reduces the economy’s ability to function well. In addition to missing this negative feedback (the proverbial vicious circle), modern economists tend to overlook the fact that interest-bearing debt grows according to its own exponential laws of increase. The economy rarely can keep up.
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    Ancient economic thought did not endorse the ideal of accumulating wealth and riches. Rather than praising ambition as the mainspring of progress, Mesopotamian religion condemned the amassing of property. Excess was held to be the primary cause of injustice, and it was characteristic above all of creditors abusing the weak and poor and foreclosing on their lands. It was to avenge the economic injustice done by the rich and strong against the weak that the Sumerian goddess Nanshe moved, as would the Greek goddess Nemesis in classical antiquity.

    Nearly every ancient society recognized that physical consumption might bring satiety, but that financial riches and property did not. The biblical prophets described how the selfish principle of insatiability led to hubris, a form of wealth addiction whose exponential upsweep in greed was akin to the growth of money at compound interest. When Isaiah declaimed “Woe to you who add house to house and join field to field till no space is left and you live alone in the land,” he was condemning not only the greed of creditors but the inexorability of interest-bearing debt that gave them the power to amass property at the expense of the society around them
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    The hubristic spirit of evil was that of insatiability, a wealth addiction that led its prey to victimize the rest of society – what Martin Luther depicted the drive for usury as the all-consuming monster, Cacus. Today’s world seems to be embracing this spirit, viewing moderation as uneconomic behavior. In its place is being put a self-referential economics of moral obesity. Ivan Boesky is reported to have announced in 1986 to a seminar convened at Stanford University that “There is nothing wrong with greed.” If the fictional corporate raider Gordon Gekko elaborated this passage more overtly in the 1987 movie Wall Street – “Greed is good” – it was a theme that ancient Greek poets and dramatists dealt with as hubris, the drunken arrogance of wealth and power. The very word “greed” was coined to describe something sinful. It was a word of condemnation, not praise of the sort found in such recent texts as C. B. McConnell’s Economics (1984:16): “The principal task of the economy is to attain the maximum fulfillment of society’s unlimited material wants.”

    Utilitarianism since Jeremy Bentham and Stanley Jevons has deemed satiety to be the guiding principle of human psychology. Schoolbook economic models assume that each added unit of consumption goods yields less and less pleasure (“utility”). This theory of diminishing marginal utility holds that people tend to reduce their economic drives as they grow richer. Instead of wanting to consume more and more, they save more of their income or simply choose leisure. Left out of account is the insatiable drive on which ancient societies placed such great emphasis – the drive to accumulate property, most typically through the dynamics of usury. Modern utilitarian theory views wealth is ultimately as something to be consumed, much like food or clothing – an amassing of the means of consumption rather than as the means of production or, ultimately, a social power relationship.

    A repertory of mathematical economic functions, real and imaginary


    Four types of mathematical curves describe how economies grow and, sometimes, collapse (Illustration 2).

    Straight-line growth (y = bx) represents constant returns to scale, as in Mesopotamian exercises in calculating the amount of labor needed to perform everyday tasks, including the cultivation of land. It is short-term and microeconomic in that it relates to an economic context in which factor proportions and productivity remain unchanged.

    An exponential curve (y = erx) describes growth with time x of a sum starting with a value of 1 at compound interest r. When plotted on log paper, this growth appears as a straight line. When the growth due to compound interest is modeled by y = erx, this describes the growth when accrued interest is added continually to the loan. But the typical way of compounding interest is to add accrued interest after a fixed interval, for example a year, as already discussed. Then the growth equation changes to y = (1+r)x. This is also exponential growth, just as dramatic as in the continuous case. In this case with discrete and equal time intervals, exponential growth is also called geometric growth. Rates of growth are often expressed in terms of doubling times. The doubling time is ln2 / ln(1+r). Here “ln” is the natural logarithm.

    An S-curve describes most biological growth. It is characterized by an accelerating upswing that tapers off as it reaches an asymptotic limit. Economies tend to grow exponentially as they recover, as long as under-utilized capital or land is available to employ labor. The typical business cycle, for instance, tapers off as capacity and debt-servicing limits are reached. Business upswings are brought to an end suddenly, by financial tightness caused by over-borrowing, that is, over-indebtedness. Defaults occur, and a crash follows. The ensuing business downturn occurs much more quickly than the upswing.

    The characteristic shape of most business “cycles” is thus scalloped and ratchet-like. An upsweeping log curve encounters financial constraints and collapses rapidly. Actually, this shape represents a combination of two curves intersecting. The upswing (y = a + bx + cx2) is intersected by the exponential growth in debt (y = x2). Something has to give at the point of intersection. A financial collapse ensues, often with political overtones and institutional changes.

    Most economists seek to explain the economy in terms of a single curve. Joseph Schumpeter used a smooth sine curve (y = sine x) as an analogy to describe the business cycle. This is especially attractive to theorists who postulate automatic stabilizers, such as Wesley Clair Mitchell and the program of leading and lagging indicators he pioneered in America at the National Bureau of Economic Research. Yet this does not acknowledge the extent to which the world’s financial overhead has multiplied over the past century.
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    • #32
      Re: Article : why debt growth must exceed interest payments

      A Modest house mortgage can be effectively a producing loan after repayment if the taxes, insurance, and other costs plus bank interest (now, essentially zip) on the invested principal are less than the rent would be for an equivalent house.

      If you look at Social Security it is a lot easier if you already own a house and can live there permanently. Paying rent with Social Security is probably impossible long term, and getting enough income from accumulated savings to pay rent is also probably impossible. The pathetic proceeds from safe savings lead people to spend all their time at the Wall Street Casino hoping to make it big.

      Add in the value of owning enough land for a place to grow some of your own food (a garden, maybe a few chickens), and you have a winner. Add in woodland for heating the house and ... well, I probably don't have to continue.

      Plenty of us are old enough to realize that either we have our independent means of support or we eat lots of cat food. In fact, I think that time will show that modest assets that provide support for living (shelter, food, maybe a workshop or small business) are one of the few producing outcomes that justify loans for the common man.

      Sadly, too many common men have mostly fallen victim to the "buy it now" urgings of the economic establishment and screwed themselves and their families. Their mega-mansions with a home equity loan-provided large screen TV and now worn out deluxe SUVs is another question entirely. It is time for them to start over with the simple pursuit of a modest practical home somewhere he can afford to live. Some will make it, lots won't.

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      • #33
        Re: Article : why debt growth must exceed interest payments

        Originally posted by Rajiv
        Please read Hudson's - The Mathematical Economics of Compound Rates of Interest: A Four-Thousand Year Overview
        Could you state why you recommend this?
        • Perhaps you saw something in my posts you agreed with and you thought Hudson reinforced.
        • Perhaps you saw something in my posts you disagreed with and you thought Hudson could change my thinking.
        • Perhaps you were just connecting general subject interest, with no particular opinion of your own.
        • Perhaps you think I am claiming exponential debt growth is no problem and you thought Hudson could convince me to the contrary.
        • Perhaps, perhaps, perhaps ...

        I could respond to various agreements or disagreements I might have with this work of Hudson, but until I know the point of your recommendation, I have no way of knowing if I am responding to your point.

        Thanks.
        Most folks are good; a few aren't.

        Comment


        • #34
          Re: Article : why debt growth must exceed interest payments

          I'm going to jump in here, and then go back and read all the stuff in this incredible thread. In this way, I shall certainly sound like an ass.

          My first thought is that "money" must appear to represent something. At it's core and back when it was born, money was nothing more than a promise to pay, made permanent by physical form, for convenience and nothing more. It has, from its inception, always assumed an absolute mountain of good faith. It was the strength of the "promise" that gave money it's utility. Through thousands of years and a myriad of different cultures, regimes, and social systems, this has remained true. That very first dude who made the techological leap of handing over his cow for a handshake and a hunk of clay was a freaking pioneer. You want faith? That's faith. That hunk of clay and the handshake meant something. When I find some data on the first dude to screw with that faith I'll of course pass it on, but I suspect the issue was resolved instantly and perhaps, violently.

          And then a bunch of stuff happened and we get to our contemporary world, where we parse and discuss the minutia of financial questions and issues that simply could not be more far removed from the original intent of money. Money is treated like a commodity in it's own right now however, it still carries that original feature of faith. While every conceivable object under the sun has now been monetized at the exclusion of nothing, that monetization still rests on the faith of the bearers of all those notes - be they cash, digital representations of cash, or even faith in money that does not exist at all.

          Our contemporary finance and economic "math" implicitly assumes that faith is always present, because I believe, those dull sciences were born and developed in a remarkable era of consistent faith in money. Goodwill and philosophical intentions did not found America, unshakable faith in the power of money did, as money became egalitarian. Not that long ago only a fraction of humans used money as exchange, the great masses using more traditional forms of barter that did not require a handshake, a promise, and a hunk of clay. While there are still places where barter is king, the last 200 years or so has seen the expansion of money into the hands of simple humans everywhere, billions of people whose faith in the promise is so complete it never occurs to any that faith might one day be broken.

          When we "compute" money in any way today, we forget that those computations assume absolutely that the greatest holders of those promises - the billions of common folk - will retain their unshakable faith that that promise is worth something. The entire economic architecture of the planet depends on it.

          So, after all that, I put it that most traditional measures of economic activity are false, as is any math that depends on them. I suggest that without our noticing it, the faith common folks place on the promise in their pocket has dramatically eroded over the last thirty years, and much of the problem with using standard measures now is that they do not also notice this shift. "Folks" just are not reacting to the models like they used to in the good old days. The respect for both the promise and the obligation is changing.

          Can a debt based monetary system be infinitely self sustaining? Can this be accomplished without a domestic savings cushion or a favorable balance of trade account? I don't think it matters one way or the other anymore. Somewhat philosophical for the thread and I apologize, but think about it.
          ScreamBucket.com

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          • #35
            Re: Article : why debt growth must exceed interest payments

            Sorry for the confusion.

            The problem that I perceived with your arguments, was not in your arguments themselves.

            What you say is not implausible at the level of the individual borrower. The problems invariably occur at the systemic or societal level. The compound interest system is not stable at the systemic or societal level, and invariably leads to rapid growth during the period that the interest payments are sustainable, followed by a rapid collapse when the abilty to meet the debt burden at the societal level ceases. The collapse can be either defationary or hyperinflationary. Either case leads to a shift of wealth from the bottom to the top of the financial pyramid, unless there ar societal rules in place that prevent that from occurring.

            This in my reading is one of the major messages in Hudson's paper. As an aside there is a very good critique of Marx's thinking on the role of the Financiers in that paper.

            I hope that this clarifies the two posts that I made in response to you comments.

            Comment


            • #36
              Re: Article : why debt growth must exceed interest payments

              Thanks for clarifying.
              Originally posted by Rajiv
              The compound interest system is not stable at the systemic or societal level,
              Did you notice that Hudson's examples of 20% and 33% interest from ancient times were not compounding, not exponential? For example, one might pay 1/60 of the principle in interest each month (which worked out to 20% per year, as 12/60 == 0.05 == 20%.) That would be a constant, non-increasing rate of interest, paying interest only on the principle, not compounding interest exponentially on itself.

              Yes, there is a problem with debt, which can occur at the level of the individual borrower or on a society wide basis. Yes, it is a big problem, seen over and over again throughout history, such as in the examples Hudson provides. But that's no excuse to use invalid ("invalid" means not aligned to reality; it does not mean internally inconsistent) mathematical models.

              But I am probably repeating myself. Sorry.
              Most folks are good; a few aren't.

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              • #37
                Re: Article : why debt growth must exceed interest payments

                Yes you are right in that debt and interest that is a problem at the root. Hoever note that you are incorrect about it being a pure simple interest in the Hudson example. A form of compounding was used

                Scribal students (nearly all of whom were employed in temple and palace bookkeeping) were taught to calculate how rapidly investments doubled when lent out at interest. A model exercise appears in a Berlin cuneiform text (VAT 8528): How long does it take a mina of silver to double at the normal commercial rate of interest of 1/60th (that is, one shekel per mina) per month? (This often is expressed a 20 percent annual interest, inasmuch as 12/60ths = 1/5 = 20 percent.) The solution involves calculating powers of 2 (22 = 4, 23 = 8 and so forth).[7]

                The answer is five years at simple interest, as compounding began only once the principal sum had entirely reproduced itself after 60 months had passed. At this rate a mina multiplies fourfold in 10 years, eightfold in 15 years, sixteenfold in 20 years, and so forth. A related problem (VAT 8525) asks how long it will take for one mina to become 64, that is, 26. The answer is 30 years, six times the basic five‑year doubling period (Illustration 1).

                The basic idea of interest-bearing debt is one of doubling times.
                The above arithmetic effectively produced the compounding interest rate of 14.87% APR

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                • #38
                  Re: Article : why debt growth must exceed interest payments

                  Originally posted by Rajiv
                  However note that you are incorrect about it being a pure simple interest in the Hudson example. A form of compounding was used
                  You're sharp! I was aware of what you point out when I wrote my incomplete response above. I will confess to telling only half the story to make my point sharper. My bad.
                  Most folks are good; a few aren't.

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                  • #39
                    Re: Article : why debt growth must exceed interest payments

                    on Jan 1, no money exists. on Jan 2 I get a loan from a bank for $100 to be paid back at 5% simple interest due on Dec 31.
                    the banker goes to the back room and prints one crisp $100 bill. Now $100 is all the money that exists. I spend my $100.00
                    around town, and it all comes back to me in wages over the course of the year.

                    So on dec 31, I have to pay the bank $105. I only have $100.00. Icannot pay back the loan, no one can, no one has any more money.
                    I can make a deal to wash the banker's car for the remaining $5.00, and the banker can return to the back room, and
                    print a $5 bill give it to me, then the books balance. This is a sort of monitization, the bank monetizes my labor. The money supply is expanded to $105.00.

                    ======
                    Without the banker monetizing my labor above, or my old golf clubs, or something else, in the real world someone in the economy takes out another loan and pays me the $5.00 through wages, and then I can pay back my loan.

                    Is this example simple enough? Have I missed something?

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                    • #40
                      Re: Article : why debt growth must exceed interest payments

                      Originally posted by charliebrown View Post
                      on Jan 1, no money exists. on Jan 2 I get a loan from a bank for $100 to be paid back at 5% simple interest due on Dec 31.
                      Yes, as I noted above, if payment of the entire principle plus interest must occur all at once, then the money supply must expand to at least the amount of principle plus interest.

                      If multiple payments each less than the original principle are made, thus giving the money paid in one payment to come back around as new income or cash flow to the borrower, then it is sufficient for the total money supply to never exceed the size of the original loan, the principle.
                      Most folks are good; a few aren't.

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                      • #41
                        Re: Article : why debt growth must exceed interest payments

                        Originally posted by ThePythonicCow View Post
                        Initially you created it, by scribbling your signature on 100 scraps of paper. You then gave me those 100 scraps of paper in exchange for a note that I signed, saying that I'd pay you back 10 such scraps per week, for 11 weeks.

                        We both ascertained that I could perform that repayment, given that we also had an agreement that you would pay me 1 scrap per week for my labor. I thus had sufficient assets and income to handle the debt repayments.

                        In the real world, I exchanged my labor in building, securing and maintaining a shack on your property for a license to live there so long as I wanted and you allowed. You get to keep the shack when I leave.

                        This debt-based money and corresponding loan note realized that relationship in the monetary world. The lease agreement I signed with you realized that agreement in the legal world, spelling out who had what rights to property and under what obligations and the terms of termination.
                        Thanks PC - I better understand your scenrio now.

                        However, your seed money is not like our currency system that is at issue here. Your seed money was not created thru debt, and if you introduce any type of reserve lending in your scenrio, then leverage would grow in the system, as well as money.

                        As I mentioned before in this thread, all money is credit, even the money in your wallet. And even if the debt/credit reltionship is between two private individuals, there is an underlying debt/credit relationship that involves the government. It's all debt, and never truly extinguished, but transferred. The obligation/relationship between debtor and creditor may be terminated upon performance of the contract, but the debt money continues... and grows...

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: Article : why debt growth must exceed interest payments

                          Originally posted by gnk View Post
                          Thanks PC - I better understand your scenario now.

                          However, your seed money is not like our currency system that is at issue here. Your seed money was not created thru debt, ...
                          No, I don't think so. That 100 $GNK$ was created through debt. It was created in exchange for the note I gave you, good for 11 payments of 10 $GNK$ each, from me to you, one payment per week, for 11 weeks.

                          My scenario is quite simplified, yes. But that detail at least is captured, I believe.

                          Our real dollar bills in our wallet are, as you note, also debt-based money. However I am surprised you state that the debt behind a dollar is never extinguished.

                          If I understand correctly, the Treasury debt behind Dollars is created when the Treasury issues Bills, Notes and Bonds which it sells at auction in exchange for Dollars. The Fed puts more Dollars into circulation by engaging in Open Market Operations with its banks, exchanging Treasury debt back and forth for Dollars.

                          Treasury debt can be (though, granted, infrequently is) extinguished by the Treasury buying back its debt paper. More commonly of course, old expiring debt is rolled over, and new additional debt is added.
                          Most folks are good; a few aren't.

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                          • #43
                            Re: Article : why debt growth must exceed interest payments

                            yes, but payments to the bank do not leave the bank until someone takes out another loan.

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                            • #44
                              Re: Article : why debt growth must exceed interest payments

                              Yes. When a loan is repaid, the money is basically destroyed, and the money supply reduces.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Re: Article : why debt growth must exceed interest payments

                                Originally posted by charliebrown View Post
                                yes, but payments to the bank do not leave the bank until someone takes out another loan.
                                To what are you responding?

                                In any case, I doubt that payments to a bank are segregated like that. If I pay off a loan I hold with a bank, then the bank ends up with some cash on its balance sheet where before it had my loan note, but that usually has little affect on what else or when else they conduct other business.
                                Most folks are good; a few aren't.

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