Not in law yet, and costs already rising for ObamaCare?

[radon]

Re: Not in law yet, and costs already rising for ObamaCare?

That we are cows in a pasture, not a barn, does not mean we are free. See a good video on this at The Story of Your Enslavement by Stefan Molyneux . The text for this video can be read at The Story of Your Enslavement (text).

Perhaps..

I don't pretend to speak for all cows, but I would rather be in a pasture, even one that is fenced, than a feed lot. I agree that our propaganda is much better. It may be even more evil in its invisibility and pervasiveness. My judgment on the old Soviet Union isn't related to that. It was simply a lousy place to live throughout its entire history. This was especially true if you had any motivation or original thought. If you ask me questions about where I'd rather live, US or USSR, east or west Germany, I don't even need time to consider it.

[radon]

Re: Not in law yet, and costs already rising for ObamaCare?

Insurance companies are quite motivated to negotiate the price. Not only that, with the volume that they bring they often can force the price down substantially. Indeed, the rates a typical insurance company pays are well below the rates a non-insured or cash-payer pays. A tip: if you plan on paying with cash, ask for the insurance rate. If they will give it to you it's a pretty good guide to see what you should be paying.

Right - because insurance companies actually have to pay. Most people would be far more frugal if they actually saw the cash leaving their pocket; although, I'm willing to concede that this would have less of an impact on the wealthy cash payers who make no attempt to negotiate.

Granted, this doesn't totally solve the problem of unnecessary treatments. Of course, this is partially addressed by the fact that the insurance companies won't pay for many treatments if they deem them experimental or ineffective.

A large part of the problem is the incentives doctors have in ordering more treatments. And, there is also a significant information asymmetry in this market: If a doctor tells you that you need a treatment, who are you to turn it down? The problem is that doctors are paid based on the number and amount of treatments they order. Salaries could go a long way to addressing this issue.

The biggest incentive doctors have for unnecessary "treatments" is not to get sued. They need defensive medicine because there will be some "expert" witness on the stand with 20/20 hindsight going over what treatments, test, and studies should have been done. It doesn't matter that 30% of them are unneeded. Salaries wouldn't address this problem, but they would remove the incentive to work extra hours.

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: Not in law yet, and costs already rising for ObamaCare?

Yes, a pasture is better than a crowded feed lot, and the US is better than the USSR.

[radon]

Re: Not in law yet, and costs already rising for ObamaCare?

As George W. Bush once said, "I'm the decider, and I decide what's best."

The american people needed a second opinion.

[c1ue]

Re: Not in law yet, and costs already rising for ObamaCare?

Insurance companies are quite motivated to negotiate the price. Not only that, with the volume that they bring they often can force the price down substantially. Indeed, the rates a typical insurance company pays are well below the rates a non-insured or cash-payer pays. A tip: if you plan on paying with cash, ask for the insurance rate. If they will give it to you it's a pretty good guide to see what you should be paying.

The problem is that insurance companies are also quite motivated not to pay even when they should.

Similarly an insurance company forcing a price down doesn't mean that prices overall go down; Medicare is an excellent example: Medicare prices are lower than anything any insurance company gets.

Does this mean Medicare prices are the fair market value of said service? Or does it mean that prices for EVERYONE ELSE goes up to compensate?

And as for the insurance price - as you note yourself - this itself doesn't tell the consumer whether the procedure is effective and/or price effective.

Never did I say america is lily white, but I would suggest looking somewhere other than the Soviets for ideas of good governance. And yes I still maintain it is apples and oranges.

Now you are putting words in my mouth.

I have never said nor suggested in any way that the ideal government should be Leninist, nor that the US government should be communist.

The point is that in examining any statement - the truth should be known. And the truth is never black or white, red or blue.

America has never had that level of totalitarianism or systematic purges.

The operative word missing is "yet".

America hasn't had the type of class warfare such as Russia underwent during the November Revolution - the only internal major conflict was the Civil War - and it was region vs. region, not neighbor vs. neighbor.

America also is unlike Russia: it does not have large ethnic minorities with long histories of independence (any longer). While again it does not excuse the behavior, it is comprehendable that Stalin used extreme repression to preserve the Russian empire over the Balts, the Central Asians, the Caucausans, and Eastern Europe once the previous social order was destroyed.

What would you have done at the prospect of half your nation revolting and going independent?

And again, there is a precedent: what would have happened to the Tories had there not been Canada?

Would they all have boarded ships and gone back to England as penniless refugees?

We already know what happened to the native Americans: they have been systematically stunted for 250 years.

[radon]

Re: Not in law yet, and costs already rising for ObamaCare?

Now you are putting words in my mouth.

I have never said nor suggested in any way that the ideal government should be Leninist, nor that the US government should be communist.

The point is that in examining any statement - the truth should be known. And the truth is never black or white, red or blue.

I think you quoted me on that and not TPC. I'm not sure how I put words in your mouth. You are the one who claimed my view of America was lilly white, and the context of the sub-thread(which has drifted off topic I admit) was that the American view of the Soviet Union, as an oligarchy that crushed its people under totalitarianism, was the result of propaganda. I maintain that is exactly what the Soviet Union was, and whatever misdeeds the American government is guilty of does little to sway opinion on that matter.

My original reply was to one of Rajiv's posts, so I think we are probably speaking past each other. I never thought you held these out as examples of idea government.

The operative word missing is "yet".

America hasn't had the type of class warfare such as Russia

I hope it never does. If something like that happens there won't be a safe place on the continent. I'll probably pack up and go. I'm sure I won't be alone, and if the outcome is anything like what happened in Russia I feel I'll be justified in leaving. I assure you the state of health care won't enter into my decision.

[flintlock]

Re: Not in law yet, and costs already rising for ObamaCare?

Lawsuits are a major problem leading to unnecessary treatment, but they can also be used as an excuse to order more expensive tests. It's very hard to know what the real motivation is. More than a few physicians have a financial interest in the testing facilities. Very few will mention this up front. ;)

[flintlock]

Re: Not in law yet, and costs already rising for ObamaCare?

America is not innocent by any means, but to compare it's treatment of prisoners of any type to the USSR's is way off by a huge margin. I just finished a book on Stalingrad recently. Stalin's order #227 forbid surrendering or retreat. His NKVD ended up shooting tens of thousands of their own Red Army troops, just at Stalingrad alone. Conditions were so bad that over 50,000 Soviets ended up in the ranks of the German Army that was later encircled and destroyed there( called Hiwis). One story told of Russian soldiers captured early in the war after a long and protracted siege. They were held for 4 years in horrible German prisoner camps. The few (probably < 10%) who survived the war were rewarded by Stalin with a trip to Siberia for daring to surrender. Welcome home Comrade! The Soviet system was brutal beyond belief, and any propaganda against them paled in comparison to the real thing. Soviet troops and even generals truly feared the NKVD as much as the enemy. It truly sucked to be a Russian soldier in WWII. Talk about between a rock and a hard place. I can't remember reading about anything on that scale going on in America.

Bad shit happens everywhere. Humans can really suck at times. We have some bad apples in our midst no doubt. And I get what people are saying about not buying into the "America is innocent" lie. But we have never seen evil on the scale many other nations have. Not even close. I'm not saying we won't though. The recent US warmongering makes me wonder sometimes.

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: Not in law yet, and costs already rising for ObamaCare?

c1ue -- your quotes "Never did I ..." and "America has never ..." were from radon. You attributed them to TPC incorrectly.

[c1ue]

Re: Not in law yet, and costs already rising for ObamaCare?

c1ue -- your quotes "Never did I ..." and "America has never ..." were from radon. You attributed them to TPC incorrectly.

So I did.

My apologies - the correction has been made.

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: Not in law yet, and costs already rising for ObamaCare?

... the correction has been made.

Good, thanks.

[ViC78]

Re: Not in law yet, and costs already rising for ObamaCare?

The biggest incentive doctors have for unnecessary "treatments" is not to get sued. They need defensive medicine because there will be some "expert" witness on the stand with 20/20 hindsight going over what treatments, test, and studies should have been done. It doesn't matter that 30% of them are unneeded. Salaries wouldn't address this problem, but they would remove the incentive to work extra hours.

Medical Malpractice Tort Reform Backfires in Florida

Several years ago, Florida passed tort “reform” that among other things was supposed to help doctors afford medical malpractice insurance. Guess what happened? As usual, the insurers barely dropped their premiums after the “reform” passed. But now doctors are just choosing not to buy insurance coverage because they’ve realized that being uninsured makes it less likely they’ll be sued. And, even if they are sued, they can just file bankruptcy:

"I have a strong feeling I’ll never hear from another attorney again," Rosenbaum said. "Sure, I’m nervous. But I practice carefully. The first thing lawyers do when they have a case is [check] all the doctors involved to see who has how much coverage." [Sad but true. The assumption is that if a doctor doesn’t have medical malpractice insurance, he doesn’t have any money to satisfy a judgment. – JCL]
Financial advisors now specialize in sheltering doctors’ assets from malpractice verdicts. Marc Singer, a partner at Singer Xenos Wealth Management in Coral Gables, said he advises doctors to drop coverage and, if sued, offer the patient a choice: a small settlement or get nothing when the doctor goes bankrupt. [And people call lawyers unethical. – JCL]
"The idea here is not to beat the patient, the idea is to lower the expectations of the plaintiff’s attorney," Singer said.
Bankruptcy has become a growing option for uninsured doctors, experts said. Federal and state laws shield the main home, retirement accounts, annuities and life insurance from malpractice awards.
Uninsured Juno Beach neurosurgeon Jacques Farkas filed for bankruptcy in 2004 after two patients sued. In the more severe case, a paralyzed man said in a lawsuit that his brain was pierced by a back rod Farkas implanted badly. Bankruptcy court records show Farkas sheltered $2.6 million in assets, including a $1.6 million oceanfront home. His payout to creditors: $16,200. The two patients got nothing. [While the doctor lives the life of a rock star, the patient lives in a wheelchair. And I bet taxpayers picked up the tab for that wheelchair, too. I also wonder why the bankruptcy “reform” act doesn’t prevent millionaires from filing bankruptcy, when it prevents middle-class debtors from doing so.– JCL]
"Fair or not fair… he did what the law allowed," said Charles Cohen, a Farkas attorney who said the doctor denies wrongdoing in the surgeries.
Attorneys said declaring bankruptcy gives doctors another edge. If a malpractice award does not get paid because of bankruptcy, the state no longer considers a doctor in violation for not paying it, preserving his or her medical license. Only a handful of doctors have lost licenses for not paying. [This sucks. And it sucks because it’s a necessary consequence of bankruptcy protection; filing bankruptcy is your legal right, and it’s not fair to punish you for doing so. - JCL]
Source: Uninsured doctors on the rise in South Florida — South Florida Sun-Sentinel.com (H/T to Walter)

Thanks to tort “reform,” injured patients are getting little or no compensation, and taxpayers are paying the medical bills for the injured patients. Good job, Florida Legislature.
http://www.tortdeform.com/archives/2...ort_refor.html

Looks like tort reform did not work in Florida. Admittedly, this is just one source and I will try to dig up some more information, but it confirms what I have been hearing anecdotally, that tort reform did not bring down insurance rates as its proponents claimed that it would do so.

[radon]

Re: Not in law yet, and costs already rising for ObamaCare?

Looks like tort reform did not work in Florida. Admittedly, this is just one source and I will try to dig up some more information, but it confirms what I have been hearing anecdotally, that tort reform did not bring down insurance rates as its proponents claimed that it would do so.

I'm not sure what your point is. If it is that that Federal and state laws protect people in bankruptcy, and doctors that don't carry malpractice are less likely to get sued then I agree with you. If you are complaining that some fellow didn't win the lottery ticket his lawyer promised him then I'm unlikely to be sympathetic. In any case I'm not sure how this applies to defensive medicine.