Interesting experience with manager today

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: Interesting experience with manager today

What many refused to understand is that in Asia the pay is ten times less but at the same time the cost of living is ten times less so that at the end their standard of living is the same as ours.

Well, I doubt that the standard of living (as measured say by material possessions) is the same, though it is getting closer, and there is a wide range in both cases with much overlap.

There is a wide range of "standards of living" that are adequate to sustain a comfortable life. The norm where I used to live in a nice Silicon Valley suburb costs perhaps five or ten times the norm where I now live in a trailer park in North Texas. Both situations are quite satisfactory.

Globalization has been much abused by multi-national corporations, sucking the life, wealth and cultural variety out of many localities around the world. But that doesn't mean we want to dramatically reduce the volume of bits (over the Internet) or goods (via shipping container ships, oil tankers and such) shipped around the world, so that we can go back to "the good old days."

I spend the last few years of my computer career working on the Linux kernel, which is developed around the clock and around the globe. When I noticed that I was likely earning five or ten times what some of my colleagues were earning for similar quality work, I knew that could not last. The only reasonable outcome, in my view, was that I would earn a lot less and they would earn a little more, for a given amount and quality of work.

What we haven't figured out is how to globalize work that is best globalized (such as that Linux kernel development) while respecting and preserving local culture and economies and restraining a few multi-national corporations and (one in particular) world superpower from extreme fraud and corruption.

[GRG55]

Re: Interesting experience with manager today

I'm missing something here. Why is making a meeting at 6 AM with some Europeans and at 6 PM with some Asians a problem? Why can't one just work less some other time in order to get the work life balance as desired?

Easier said than done for some TPC [as I suspect you already know ].

I experienced something similar while when I first moved to work in the Middle East. Between my employer's offices in Houston, London, Singapore and Jakarta and the different "weekends" [Saudi is Thursday/Friday, most of the rest of the Middle East is Friday/Saturday...] it seemed that across the days and the time zones there was always somebody, somewhere that was "at the office" calling me or sending me emails to which they expected a quick response.

I think our globalized economies have played a big part in this...and although it actually can open lots of opportunities for people that are able to think and work beyond their own national borders [and I understand many for personal reasons cannot], it can be exhausting. Despite many entreaties from my international business colleagues and partners, I absolutely refuse to own a Blackberry for this reason...I simply do not want to be quite that accessable and allow others to potentially control my time. Having a cell phone is bad enough.

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: Interesting experience with manager today

Easier said than done for some TPC [as I suspect you already know ].

Well, yeah, I've heard rumors to the affect that some people like to work a normal schedule and have healthy and predictable time off. Myself I quite enjoyed those more intense times when I was in active development with engineers in New York, Minnesota, Sunnyvale, New Zealand, Australia, Japan, China, India, Bulgaria, France and the UK. It was non-stop fun.

(That might be one of the reasons my wife had the good sense to divorce me .)

[BiscayneSunrise]

Re: Interesting experience with manager today

Malaysasia is, indeed, coming on strong. A confluence of several factors:

- On their southern border is Singapore which is bursting at the seams, so economic activity spilling over from there.

-Also like Singapore, nicely situated geographically and culturally at the crossroads of Asia.

-Western corporations are increasingly nervous about having too much of their income derived from a China getting increasingly bubbly and vociferous.

-The overall worldwide trend of emerging markets whose appetites for progress will not be denied.

As for the bit about skilled IT workers in Asia making 1/5 the wages of a westerner:

My question is, what kind of lifestyle and social status does that achieve in a Malaysia vs a Sunnyvale?

[GRG55]

Re: Interesting experience with manager today

...As for the bit about skilled IT workers in Asia making 1/5 the wages of a westerner:

My question is, what kind of lifestyle and social status does that achieve in a Malaysia vs a Sunnyvale?

I suspect that a skilled IT worker in Malaysia can afford a maid or houseboy. The one in Sunnyvale can't...:rolleyes:

[BiscayneSunrise]

Re: Interesting experience with manager today

I suspect that a skilled IT worker in Malaysia can afford a maid or houseboy. The one in Sunnyvale can't...:rolleyes:

Right.

The other dynamic going on in countries like that is that the economy and mindset is very similar to how it was in the US post WW2, in that there is an explosion of ideas and opportunities. A new frontier offering untold wealth to hard working opportunists.

Whereas, in the west, entrenched interests are fighting over how the diminishing number of pennies will be spent on entitlements.

[DToM67]

Re: Interesting experience with manager today

This is probably a dumb question, so please bear with me. As far as I can understand, companies have increased their profits via the margin between the slave labor prices in the third world and the price at which they sell the goods in the first world.

So, if the living standards in the first world go down, they will not be able to afford the prices at which goods/services are sold currently. Additionally, as the labor prices in the third world go up, this reduces the margin from the input cost end. How does this help corporations in any way? Or do they just move on to the next cheaper destination - Africa?

We noticed this in thee 90's in the cycling industry. No, it wasn't tech, but...

We went:
USA>Japan>Taiwan>China>India/Indonesia...

Initially production was shifted to meet need - volume & specialized production facilities. Many capable companies in the US weren't interested - kept busy/happy with auto industry & military contracts. So production was off-shored. But as production shifted from Japan, it was all about 'cost' and margin.

Assembly was performed either at the frame-building co, or in some instances (e.g. GT/Schwinn) was in Mexico to meet trade "made in X" requirements.

Although I've been out of the sporting goods industry for a while now, its my understanding that some production has again shifted back to Taiwan, but that the vast majority is China/India.

BTW
It was interesting to see the creativity in the US (in the early - mid 90's) when the military contracts dried up. There was a (brief) renaissance of US made bicycle components & frames - mostly high-end by idling machine/fabrication shops.

Perhaps the long way round... but it seems like a no-win... chasing one's own tail.

[c1ue]

Re: Interesting experience with manager today

Karim,

I feel for you - but this is exactly what I foresaw in 2006 when I quit my former industry and went independent.

Between the implacable economics of the new semi process cost structure and outsourcing - the situation is very much a shrinking pond, with all the fish in it eating each other.

The pond won't disappear in our lifetimes, but not being a big fish means getting 'food chained' sooner or later unless you are truly an irreplaceable or sufficiently tenured asset.

[karim0028]

Re: Interesting experience with manager today

I'm missing something here. Why is making a meeting at 6 AM with some Europeans and at 6 PM with some Asians a problem? Why can't one just work less some other time in order to get the work life balance as desired?

Well, bc my meetings at 6 AM are with customers... You still have colleagues in the US, and if your not in the office during US working hours or are seen dipping out at 2 pm, talk start swirling around the water cooler and folks think your not doing anything...

In large companies, perception has a lot of weight....

I actually work from home alot, but i still have to come in for the majority of the day, bc we still have meetings intra-team during US time. So, switching times does happen, but in reality, who the hell wants to work all day... I actually want a life My philosophy is work to live not live to work ;)

[karim0028]

Re: Interesting experience with manager today

Right.

The other dynamic going on in countries like that is that the economy and mindset is very similar to how it was in the US post WW2, in that there is an explosion of ideas and opportunities. A new frontier offering untold wealth to hard working opportunists.

Whereas, in the west, entrenched interests are fighting over how the diminishing number of pennies will be spent on entitlements.

Bingo! I absolutely agree... I have a colleague who moved from malaysia to the US with our company, and i told him i think he made the wrong move But, his wife is a physician and wanted to get USMLE certified.....

I see malaysia and asia in general as hungry for growth and advancement like the US 50 years ago.

[Slimprofits]

Re: Interesting experience with manager today

What many refused to understand is that in Asia the pay is ten times less but at the same time the cost of living is ten times less so that at the end their standard of living is the same as ours.

thank you, that explains a lot

[karim0028]

Re: Interesting experience with manager today

Karim,

I feel for you - but this is exactly what I foresaw in 2006 when I quit my former industry and went independent.

Between the implacable economics of the new semi process cost structure and outsourcing - the situation is very much a shrinking pond, with all the fish in it eating each other.

The pond won't disappear in our lifetimes, but not being a big fish means getting 'food chained' sooner or later unless you are truly an irreplaceable or sufficiently tenured asset.

The way i view it, in a business structure there is no such thing as an "irreplaceable asset"... If i were running a business i would have to be an idiot to have some one deemed irreplaceable, if they are irreplaceable then they ARE the business.... From a managers point of view, everyone in a business has to be replaceable for the business to succeed, like a cog in a wheel... If what you know is learnable, then you are replaceable... Otherwise worst case, they could hold the business hostage for a raise or a bigger cut; or even less nefarious, what do you do if they get sick ,quit or move?... Thats whats loosely termed "business continuity"...

Otherwise what you got there is a hobby, not a business...

[karim0028]

Re: Interesting experience with manager today

Karim, you've just described life in rest of the semiconductor industry (i.e non-Intel - who still retains wafer fabs in US) for at least the last 5-7 years. You should have asked him when they will be outsourcing your Finance group to Malaysia or Bangalore.

We also have offices and finance groups in malaysia and Bangalore, i'm just glad i dont have team members there (in Bangalore, time diff is almost a full 12 hours) And yes, this is the semi-conductor industry Trust me, it doesn't matter if you have fabs in the US, its the same industry wide...

[touchring]

Re: Interesting experience with manager today

I suspect that a skilled IT worker in Malaysia can afford a maid or houseboy. The one in Sunnyvale can't...:rolleyes:

Many Malaysian IT and professionals (mostly ethnic Chinese) work in Singapore at twice the wages they get back home, and their productivity is high, which is not surprising if you would consider that they are a minority in a predominantly Muslim country and hence have to work harder.

[c1ue]

Re: Interesting experience with manager today

The way i view it, in a business structure there is no such thing as an "irreplaceable asset"... If i were running a business i would have to be an idiot to have some one deemed irreplaceable, if they are irreplaceable then they ARE the business.... From a managers point of view, everyone in a business has to be replaceable for the business to succeed, like a cog in a wheel... If what you know is learnable, then you are replaceable... Otherwise worst case, they could hold the business hostage for a raise or a bigger cut; or even less nefarious, what do you do if they get sick ,quit or move?... Thats whats loosely termed "business continuity"...

Otherwise what you got there is a hobby, not a business...

Strictly speaking, no one is irreplaceable.

In reality, though, taking out your lead R & D developers is generally not a good move. Similarly taking out popular customer-facing support types is equally not a good move. Then there are the executives: each organization has a core group which drives most activity. They certainly don't fire themselves. Lastly there are the loyalists: the old timers whom the various constituents above have relied on for years who might not quite make any of the above grades.

Thus in this light there are definitely individuals who are irreplaceable in a practical sense.

As I was none of these 4 groups, I chose to be proactive.