Here we go...Health Care 'Reform' passes

[c1ue]

Re: Here we go...Health Care 'Reform' passes

Bottom line is, he'd likely be in his eighties before healthcare was ever again discussed in Congress. He could remain the "last man standing" on principle, or cave in and accept a relatively toothless bill like this one.

Sounds good, until you contemplate what the likelihood of true health care reform is now that 'reform' has already been passed.

As for Kucinich's "thoughts" - the substance of the Esquire article was not that he voted for the bill not due to its merits with regards to improving health care in America - he voted because it was a symbol of Obama's presidency, and he hoped that doing so would 'turn the tide'. He also voted because 77 others who swore they'd only vote for single payer - only 2 stuck it out and one is now out of office. Sounds like a chicken-out to me.

My respect for this man (DK) has just fallen precipitously. Obama has been a disaster in every conceivable respect - and even his own party is now reduced to "Hope" that he'll do something of note.

There were 30 blue-dog Demos, most of them from the South, no surprise, but a few from mostly rural Western states like North Dakota and South Dakota, Arizona, etc. that voted to kill the bill. These blue-dogs were the exact same as the Republicans in their states, i.e, corrupt and rightwing as can be.

30 Demos in the House means nothing. The Demos in the Senate stuck together, and the Demos in the House kept it close enough together to pass the bill. So again I am unclear how your complaints about racist, homophobic, whatever is relevant.

As for corruption, are you trying to tell me the Demos are in any way better? For every Newt, there is a Feinstein.

[Roughneck]

Re: Here we go...Health Care 'Reform' passes

IMHO real health care reform would involve removing the insurance companies and the government from most health care transactions. The third party payer system we have is one of the primary reasons for high health care costs. It's worth noting that the few areas where health care costs have come down are where there is no third party involved. Think lasik and boob jobs. Granted these are elective procedures unlike say a heart surgery. But when you remove the middleman providers can only charge a reasonable amount that people are willing to pay for the service. We don't insure our houses to replace a dishwasher or even a roof, we insure against catastrophic loss. We should do the same with health insurance. My employer pays 13K a year for my family policy. I kick in about 3K. Now if you had a nationwide mutual(not for profit)insurance pool of most americans and you could offer a 5K deductable policy for say 1/2 or 2/3 the cost of my current policy then me and my employer would come out ahead. I could put the monthly savings in a tax free health care account to pay for out of pocket expenses. Lets face it when you figure a car note and cell phone, cable etc. the average joe who can't "afford" insurance is paying $700 month for luxuries. They could afford a catastrophic policy that would keep them from going bankrupt in the event of a major illness. Of course the insurance companies don't like this because it puts them out of business and the government doesn't like it because they are not in control of what health care you receive. The providers wouldn't like it either as they couldn't charge $700 for a simple blood sugar test my wife just had becuase without a negotiated rate with an insurance company no one would pay that. Get the government and the insurance companies out of the way and let the providers compete for business and give them an incentive to reduce costs.

[jiimbergin]

Re: Here we go...Health Care 'Reform' passes

IMHO real health care reform would involve removing the insurance companies and the government from most health care transactions. The third party payer system we have is one of the primary reasons for high health care costs. It's worth noting that the few areas where health care costs have come down are where there is no third party involved. Think lasik and boob jobs. Granted these are elective procedures unlike say a heart surgery. But when you remove the middleman providers can only charge a reasonable amount that people are willing to pay for the service. We don't insure our houses to replace a dishwasher or even a roof, we insure against catastrophic loss. We should do the same with health insurance. My employer pays 13K a year for my family policy. I kick in about 3K. Now if you had a nationwide mutual(not for profit)insurance pool of most americans and you could offer a 5K deductable policy for say 1/2 or 2/3 the cost of my current policy then me and my employer would come out ahead. I could put the monthly savings in a tax free health care account to pay for out of pocket expenses. Lets face it when you figure a car note and cell phone, cable etc. the average joe who can't "afford" insurance is paying $700 month for luxuries. They could afford a catastrophic policy that would keep them from going bankrupt in the event of a major illness. Of course the insurance companies don't like this because it puts them out of business and the government doesn't like it because they are not in control of what health care you receive. The providers wouldn't like it either as they couldn't charge $700 for a simple blood sugar test my wife just had becuase without a negotiated rate with an insurance company no one would pay that. Get the government and the insurance companies out of the way and let the providers compete for business and give them an incentive to reduce costs.

I agree with you. As I mentioned in an earlier post, the expense involved in what is now called health insurance is ridiculous. Although I was primarily a life and annuity actuary, I did price a number of health policies over my career. High deductible policies were the only ones with anything close to a reasonable expense level. However, few of them sold. Cat coverages were not what most people wanted. After I retired at 54, I only bought health policies with the largest deductible I could find with the further stiplulation that I felt comfortable with the company. It is very difficult to find very large deductible policies. A few thousand dollars was the most that were commonly available.

[bpr]

Re: Here we go...Health Care 'Reform' passes

Sounds good, until you contemplate what the likelihood of true health care reform is now that 'reform' has already been passed.

Have you considered the likelihood of "true health care reform" (e.g. single payer, or at least a public option), before this bill was passed, or if it was killed?

Zero. I thought a single-payer was possible until I watched this thing unfold on the American political landscape. If this bill failed, they wouldn't touch healthcare, maybe for the rest of my life.

After watching the insane wrangling from the Right, I'm just glad they got something — anything — on the books. Maybe it can lead toward significant regulation of the health insurance industry, at least.

I'm all for more radical change, but I'm also not willing to wait another fifteen or twenty years before the idea is addressed again. I put down my pitchfork on this one. Maybe I'm just getting old.

[Serge_Tomiko]

Re: Here we go...Health Care 'Reform' passes

And the racist/homophobic tea-baggers and GOP apologists will look like idiots, if anyone cares to recall their current hysteria in 5 years.

Civil war will come to America within 20 years time. You really should dispense with the many pejorative terms and come to understand the deep divisions that exist in this country. You can demean your opponents all you want, but your attitude shows a lack of seriousness that in the end will only hurt you. The world is not as it is depicted on television and the universalist vision to which you cling has never worked anywhere, ever in the entire history of mankind.

I truly hope that when these deep divisions turn into a chasm, you will accept that not everyone believes what you do and that you have truly no hope of opposing your liberal vision on any significant part of this country.

[c1ue]

Re: Here we go...Health Care 'Reform' passes

Have you considered the likelihood of "true health care reform" (e.g. single payer, or at least a public option), before this bill was passed, or if it was killed?

Zero. I thought a single-payer was possible until I watched this thing unfold on the American political landscape. If this bill failed, they wouldn't touch healthcare, maybe for the rest of my life.

After watching the insane wrangling from the Right, I'm just glad they got something — anything — on the books. Maybe it can lead toward significant regulation of the health insurance industry, at least.

I'm all for more radical change, but I'm also not willing to wait another fifteen or twenty years before the idea is addressed again. I put down my pitchfork on this one. Maybe I'm just getting old.

What you see as impossible, I see as a lack of will.

If Obama were President with 55 Republicans in the Senate, then impossible is a fair description.

If Obama were President with 230 Republicans in the House, then impossible would be a fair description.

If Obama were trying to be fiscally responsible, then impossible would be a fair description.

If the American people were happy with health care as it is, then impossible would be a fair description.

Contrast with Clinton:

104th Congress (1995-1997)
Republican Senators: 53-55
Republican House Reps: 228-234

105th Congress (1997-1999)
Republican Senators: 55
Republican House Reps: 227-228

106th Congress (1999-2001)
Republican Senators: 55
Republican House Reps: 223

vs. Obama

111th Congress (2009-2011)
Democrat Senators: 58
Democrat House Reps: 256

So it wasn't the Senate. It wasn't the House. It wasn't the budget. It wasn't the people.

It is the man, or lack thereof.

The failure of the public option is entirely Obama's fault - it was never even presented as a choice, a dead giveaway as to Obama's having sold out in this area much as he's sold out in others (or was never not bought to begin with).

[radon]

Re: FIRE Economy wins again

I haven't seen anything (haven't looked, really) outlawing catastrophic plans.

Right, catastrophic coverage is not going away per se. It will simply be bundled with the plans you will be forced to purchase if you wish to avoid a tax penalty.

[bpr]

Re: Here we go...Health Care 'Reform' passes

You make a lot of good points, and I think they illustrate to how far to the right the "center" has shifted in the past fifteen years.

But I respectfully disagree with this one:

The failure of the public option is entirely Obama's fault - it was never even presented as a choice...

I may be wrong, but I think at least two bills were introduced that included a public option:
HR 3200 (Introduced)
HR 3962 (passed House)

These were the bills that inspired the "tea party" nonsense over the summer, and, I believe those tactics scared the public option off the table.

What we have is a dreadfully misinformed public, that is actively misled by very powerful agencies:

A poll done by Penn, Schoen and Berland Associates for the AARP stated that only 37% of Americans correctly identified the definition of the 'public option' being proposed, numbers very close to respondents guessing randomly among answers.[52]

(from the first link above)

I share your frustration over the bill that was passed, but I am willing to concede that something is better than nothing.

I believe, perhaps erroneously, that if this measure failed, there would be a far worse outcome in November for the Democrats, burying any hope of healthcare coming to light in the near future. At least they got something done, even if that something amounts to a handout to insurance companies. The victory is pyrrhic, but it's still the biggest victory the Democrats have had in a decade.

[Starving Steve]

Re: Here we go...Health Care 'Reform' passes

Correct me if I am wrong because I haven't had a chance to read the 2,050 page Obama health reform bill passed by the Congress, but I have heard that the public would be allowed to buy into Medicare if coverage is denied or is unsatisfactory after two or three different attempts with private for-profit health insurance companies. Also, the Obama health bill provides coverage for 95% of those uninsured now, so thirty-two million people would gain coverage. Also, those now denied health insurance due to pre-existing conditions would get coverage. Also, those who leech off of their local hospitals and show-up uninsured and sick inside of hospital emergency rooms will now be made to pay a hefty federal tax. GOOD!

This bill isn't the socialized-medicine that we need, but the bill is far better than no bill at all. Doing nothing was not an option, except for the Republicans. So, hats-off to the Demos who stuck with the bill and passed it in the Congress. At least, we got the door partly open now for change in future.

Hopefully, in the next presidential election arriving in 2012, all of the Republicans will be thrown-out on their ear. And then we could build onto the Obama healthcare bill, now passed into law, and move rapidly in the direction of Medicare for EVERYONE.

Finally, the demographics are on the side of the Demos; the (old fart) Republican base is aging, and the Democratic base on the East and West Coasts is young and growing in number. So, I am optimistic about the future for liberalism. The Republicans have over-played their hand in trying to kill health reform, and they have left a very bad image in the minds of American voters.

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: FIRE Economy wins again

Right, catastrophic coverage is not going away per se. It will simply be bundled with the plans you will be forced to purchase if you wish to avoid a tax penalty.

I don't wish to avoid the tax penalty. For someone who's physical health substantially exceeds their financial health, the tax penalty is hands down the cheaper of the two alternatives.

My question is what forms of catastrophic coverage might continue, unbundled with government endorsed plans.

[Starving Steve]

Re: Here we go...Health Care 'Reform' passes

Civil war will come to America within 20 years time. You really should dispense with the many pejorative terms and come to understand the deep divisions that exist in this country. You can demean your opponents all you want, but your attitude shows a lack of seriousness that in the end will only hurt you. The world is not as it is depicted on television and the universalist vision to which you cling has never worked anywhere, ever in the entire history of mankind.

I truly hope that when these deep divisions turn into a chasm, you will accept that not everyone believes what you do and that you have truly no hope of opposing your liberal vision on any significant part of this country.

Twenty years from now, in 2030, I will be 81, and the Republicans of to-day (the tea-baggers) will be in the cemetery where they belong. The America of 2030 will be young and liberal, multi-cultural and multi-lingual, and the America of 2030 will have socialized-medicine to provide healthcare for everyone, as the most basic of all human rights.

[c1ue]

Re: Here we go...Health Care 'Reform' passes

I believe, perhaps erroneously, that if this measure failed, there would be a far worse outcome in November for the Democrats, burying any hope of healthcare coming to light in the near future. At least they got something done, even if that something amounts to a handout to insurance companies. The victory is pyrrhic, but it's still the biggest victory the Democrats have had in a decade.

Fair enough.

I will point out, however, that you are now switching arguments.

If the public option is so unpopular as is health care reform in general, then why do anything at all?

If the Tea Party folks were so scary, how did a strong arming of a health care reform bill - including a new obligatory tax - defuse this sentiment?

If the Democrats are so terrified of the November elections, then why rock the boat with a completely partisan bill which was ramrodded through the vociferous objections of the Republicans?

Does not compute.

[Starving Steve]

Re: Here we go...Health Care 'Reform' passes

Sounds good, until you contemplate what the likelihood of true health care reform is now that 'reform' has already been passed.

As for Kucinich's "thoughts" - the substance of the Esquire article was not that he voted for the bill not due to its merits with regards to improving health care in America - he voted because it was a symbol of Obama's presidency, and he hoped that doing so would 'turn the tide'. He also voted because 77 others who swore they'd only vote for single payer - only 2 stuck it out and one is now out of office. Sounds like a chicken-out to me.

My respect for this man (DK) has just fallen precipitously. Obama has been a disaster in every conceivable respect - and even his own party is now reduced to "Hope" that he'll do something of note.



30 Demos in the House means nothing. The Demos in the Senate stuck together, and the Demos in the House kept it close enough together to pass the bill. So again I am unclear how your complaints about racist, homophobic, whatever is relevant.

As for corruption, are you trying to tell me the Demos are in any way better? For every Newt, there is a Feinstein.

The Republicans in the House and Senate did NOT repudiate the hecklers from the Republican Party's tea-bag movement who heckled the N-word and the f*g word from the House Gallery. That tells it all. That tells me plenty about the Republicans to-day in the U.S.

Did any Republican ask the Sergeant-at-Arms in the House to evict the hecklers? No. Instead, the Republicans welcomed the hecklers, N-word and f*g word and all.

[c1ue]

Re: Here we go...Health Care 'Reform' passes

The Republicans in the House and Senate did NOT repudiate the hecklers from the Republican Party's tea-bag movement who heckled the N-word and the f*g word from the House Gallery. That tells it all. That tells me plenty about the Republicans to-day in the U.S.

Did any Republican ask the Sergeant-at-Arms in the House to evict the hecklers? No. Instead, the Republicans welcomed the hecklers, N-word and f*g word and all.

Your fixation on the Republicans blinds you to the reality that both sides are equally corrupt and self serving - merely doing so in different ways.

Certainly the Tea Party movement is an artificial creature attempting to tap into the anger of the ignorant dumbass American people.

But this is no different than the anti-war demonstrators who mysteriously no longer protest now that a Democrat is in the White House.

As someone who has been near one of these 'events', the 'f' word and the 'n' word are no different than the terms used by said 'protesters'.

[raja]

Re: Here we go...Health Care 'Reform' passes

Raja's Health Care Plan

* People pay for their own health care as they need it.
* If they can't afford it, they suffer or die.
* If they choose to eat like pigs or self-destruct with smoking, bad diet, etc., then they are stuck with the consequences.

Raja's plan reduces medical costs in the following ways:

1) Eliminates unnecessary procedures and treatments. People will only seek medical care if they really need it.
Patients will be told their treatment options, respective costs, and likely outcomes, then given a choice of what treatment they want to pay for.

2) Incentivizes people to adopt healthy lifestyle habits, so the population becomes healthier.

3) Eliminates the Medical Insurance industry.

4) Reduces provider costs. There will be less work for doctors and hospitals, which will reduce costs as providers compete for fewer numbers of patients.

5) Incentivizes people to save for a "rainy day" and rely on family, church and community help, rather than count on taxpayer handouts.

In the case of catastrophic accidents that result in bodily injury, a small government insurance program will assist those who need financial help covering medical expenses . . . as long as the victims were not using recreational drugs or alcohol at the time of the accident.

Under Raja's Plan, excessive medical costs and profits will be flushed out of the system, therefore greater numbers of people will be able to afford to pay for their own medical care. But not everyone in society will receive state-of-the-art medical treatment . . . just as they don't now get the highest quality housing, cars or other aspects of life. Inexpensive, subsidized hospice or in-home treatment with palliative care (pain pills) will be provided for those who cannot afford medical care and are suffering . . . or on the way out.