Here we go...Health Care 'Reform' passes

[mattley]

Re: Here we go...Health Care 'Reform' passes

Solid points to Karl Denninger AND MulaMan. The consequences of this are indeed far reaching and massive in scale, especially in the next few years.
A dagger right into the heart of the "I" in FIRE.

Very true, if by "dagger" you mean hundreds of billions of dollars, and by "heart" you mean the corporate bank accounts of Blue Cross and Aetna.

Just what do you think a universal health insurance mandate backed by taxpayer subsidies means? This is the biggest corporate giveaway of my lifetime. Probably in the history of the nation. It is a win that the health insurance companies will be laughing about for decades to come.

But nevermind what the health insurance industry actually got out of the deal, some very critical words were spoken about them at one point! And words speak louder than actions, or something like that anyway, who cares, WE WON!!! YEAAAAHH!!!

[reallife]

Re: Here we go...Health Care 'Reform' passes

We have to get our cars inspected every few years to keep the tag current, why not a body / health inspection as well.

You get fat and out of shape, you pay a hefty fine..

The fatter and more out of shape, the bigger the fine.

Tax fast food based on nutritional value, or the lack thereof. The more fat and sodium, the more it costs.

The more sugar in a soda drink, the higher the price.

Let health care costs get funded by a usage tax.

Tax unhealthy food like cigarettes.

These are excellent suggestions that I wish I had thought of. Of course there has been movement toward taxing soft drinks but I think it would be a great idea to slap a surcharge on otherwise healthy people who fail a simple treadmill test of their oxygen consumption under exercise ( a marker for letting yourself get out of shape). Fail a urine aconitine test and double your premiums.

[flintlock]

Re: Here we go...Health Care 'Reform' passes

The new health care reform law isn't socialism by any stretch. I'm not too happy with it either but to call it socialism is silly political jingoism, and not very enlightening.

No, but it was designed to eventually lead to socialism. This law is by no means, health care in it's final form. It's unworkable and they know it. They set it up to fail. They can now come back and say, " See, we told you compromise wouldn't work". Short term insurance rates will rise. People can't afford it at the current rates, much less higher. This will leave everyone crying for big brother to step in and fix things. Just like the "too big to fail" banks. Just like GM. It's very transparent if you are willing to look for it.

Personally I think the current system we have is so broken we would be better off with a single payer type system anyway. The corporatism that has taken over the medical field has run amok. Some things just don't relate well to a pure profit motive. Healing sick people is one of them. So I'm not just throwing around partisan political name tags. But this is nothing more than a power grab for big government. It does nothing to address spiraling costs. I just don't see any way that this country doesn't end up with a Socialist system, pure and simple. A brilliant political move by Obama if you believe Socialism is his ultimate goal.

[WDCRob]

Re: Here we go...Health Care 'Reform' passes

So something that passed only after 14 months of bitter debate despite essentially being a very moderate and Republican plan (Romney in MA, Republican alternatives to Clinton's proposal in 1993) is actually a well-orchestrated conspiracy to enable total government takeover of health care.

I read a Harris poll today that said 24% of Republicans think Obama might be the Anti-Christ. I guess once you know that the idea above doesn't seem quite as insane as it might.

[flintlock]

Re: Here we go...Health Care 'Reform' passes

Very true, if by "dagger" you mean hundreds of billions of dollars, and by "heart" you mean the corporate bank accounts of Blue Cross and Aetna.

Just what do you think a universal health insurance mandate backed by taxpayer subsidies means? This is the biggest corporate giveaway of my lifetime. Probably in the history of the nation. It is a win that the health insurance companies will be laughing about for decades to come.

But nevermind what the health insurance industry actually got out of the deal, some very critical words were spoken about them at one point! And words speak louder than actions, or something like that anyway, who cares, WE WON!!! YEAAAAHH!!!

Agree in principle, but have you ever heard the saying, " You can't get blood from a turnip"? American middle class is tapped out. They can funnel all the money they want to Corporations but their will be no one left to pay taxes at some point. I think we passed the point of no return sometime during the second round of bailouts. The rest of this is just piling on. America will blow up long before any of this health care crap comes to pass. There is a feeding frenzy attacking the carcass of America. Soon there will be nothing left for even the vultures to eat. In ten years good health care will be a bottle of booze and a pain pill.

[flintlock]

Re: Here we go...Health Care 'Reform' passes

Either they planned it that way or they are freaking morons. Does it really matter? I didn't vote for Obama but I've always thought he generally means well. I am not a Obama hata. Just a realist. I give Obama credit for achieving what he set out to do. He has more fortitude in his pinky finger than Bush ever had. Lets hope he can put that to use in a more productive way in the future. But neither side was willing to sit down and hammer out a plan that would cut medical costs, which is really the only reason to change anything. This half assed measure only confuses the issue and puts off any real change for years. This is all about a token fulfillment of a campaign promise, and consolidation of power. Republican plan? It got ZERO Republican votes.:eek: I am not a Republican so don't group me with them either!

At least that Tanning tax made sense.:rolleyes:

[Munger]

Re: Here we go...Health Care 'Reform' passes

Ask the rest of the developed world how much they hate their socialized medical care and they will tell you that you must be american.

This is not a perfect bill. But it is a start.

And it will be very popular.

And the racist/homophobic tea-baggers and GOP apologists will look like idiots, if anyone cares to recall their current hysteria in 5 years.

The mandate exists because it has to. That is the nature of insurance and risk pooling.

The subsidy exists so the poor can afford the mandate. Yes, it kind of sucks to give money to insurance companies. And it is moderated by profit caps and exchanges. But guess what, if it weren't for the blue-dogs and GOP pretending that they wanted to compromise, there would be a public option and no subsidy. You know who to thank for that.

I find it amusing that the GOP is campaigning on repeal. Shouting "socialist" and "nazi" and "death panels" does not seem like a very good strategy when the legislation goes into effect so soon, allowing middle-class Joe to realize, "Holy shit, I have health care now. Those GOP fuckers were lying to me."

Anyways. Continue. But this is no debate.

Some things you will start to notice pretty quickly. Campaign against them at your peril:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/0..._n_508315.html

[reggie]

Re: Here we go...Health Care 'Reform' passes

No, but it was designed to eventually lead to socialism.

The old rules no longer apply. One can no longer think in terms of traditional socio-economic systems. Those days are over.

The passage of this law was totally logical within the scheme of the current social transformation underway.

[reallife]

Re: Here we go...Health Care 'Reform' passes

The old rules no longer apply. One can no longer think in terms of traditional socio-economic systems. Those days are over.

The passage of this law was totally logical within the scheme of the current social transformation underway.

Isn't this the very same argument that was made 40 years ago when Medicare was enacted by the Democrats led by Johnson and vehemently opposed by the Republicans? Oh my, the sky is falling (again)!! Armageddon, no less!! In 40 years the Republicans will be falling all over themselves trying to lend support to the reformed health care entitlements we just enacted over their dead bodies.... Some things never change. Read your history...

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: Here we go...Health Care 'Reform' passes

My take on this health care reform is different than those I've noticed above.

The most profitable portions of American medicine are prescription drugs, vaccinations and surgery for chronic disease (cardio and cancer.) The annual medical checkup is very much like the free brake or muffler inspection that national automotive repair chains offer; the opening to an opportunity to up-sell the patient (often using fear tactics) to the more profitable products available, preferably generating repeat business and steady income.

I avoid these medical products, like the plague. They have become corrupt from their ostensible purpose of promoting health.

This health bill nets big med and big pharma additional business from 40 million (or some such number) more customers.

The insurance companies will adjust their rates as necessary to insure profits. More business, more profit, that should be easy. Any employee of a company over 50 people or (I presume) a government (Senators, Representatives and the Congressional staff who prepared this bill excepted) will have the insurance all along. The rest of us will pay the penalty and get the insurance as necessary. All insured must pay equally in sufficient amounts to insure ongoing profits for the insurance companies.

No doubt there are a few thousand more travesties of justice, more or less or entirely un-related to the topic of medical care for Americans buried in this bill. So my critique above is far from exhaustive.

The cynic in me suspects that another major "benefit" of this bill is the accumulation of more money, collected in promise of future return or benefit, but meanwhile serving as more financial fluid for the government and FIRE industries.

[lakedaemonian]

Re: Here we go...Health Care 'Reform' passes

Greatest political achievement in our lifetime. Period.

Bigger than anything Reagan, Bush, Carter, Clinton, Bush,... achieve COMBINED!

Taking care of your neighbors with good government for real people, real middle class Americans.

Talk about homeland security? Well finally Americans no longer need to DIE because of fascist mega-insurance corporations.

Yes, could have been better, lets hope the details get modified to further crush the insurance monopolies and open that door for true competition.

If you don't understand how this is about "jobs" then you are an idiot and/or retard. Millions of Americans work in cubes at fascist mega-international firms simply because of massive health insurance advantages.

This bill increases competition in our economy in a massive way. Especially in 2014.

Small Business will boom, There are millions of talented people that will now leave Goldman, JPM, Bank of America, Wellpoint, GM, ect.. to work for "quality" firms that build "quality" products and have integrity and American values so that they can sleep at night knowing that they do not have to work for fascist anti-America scum just to get health care for their family.

Americans can now choose careers that they are proud of, regardless of pay and health benefits, that they enjoy most and that their kids will be proud.

The idea that daddy works at big fascist multi-national firm in a cube as a wage slave for 80hrs per week, is dead!

Dagger into the fascist oligarchs that have captured American politics and destroyed America.

Exposed the Republican party as the anti-America bigoted scumbags that they are, begging for money from wall-street and health insurance firms. Tea "scum" bags screaming bigoted retarded anti-America slurs on capital hill.

As a fiscal conservative, no patriotic American could ever vote Republic again, until that party is cleaned right out and rebuilt on actual conservative values. aka Ron Paul.

Republicans just don't get it. Still throwing out fear, anti-American ideas, fascist profits for CEOs, destruction of good government, destruction of good regulation, ... "no-government" somehow auto-magically creates good government.


As an Investor this is a huge SHORT of fascist mega-corporations that have 20yrs of profits based primarily on squeezed middle class wages, political deregulation, and access to cheap money.

Mega-corporation will now need to COMPETE ON QUALITY, SERVICE, and PRICE - they will lose because they are staff primarily will average, bored, ineffective, cube dwellers, corporate lawyers, and human ("slave") resources.

GOOD MORNING AMERICA, WELCOME TO THE 21ST CENTURY!

Are you being sarcastic?

I certainly hope so...if not, can you please reconcile your post with the information on the page linked below:

http://www.opensecrets.org/capital_eye/health.php

Because unless I forgot to take my crazy pills, the reality I perceive from reading the link is that the healthcare division of FIRE spent well over half a billion in 2009 alone and 3.6 billion in the last 20 years. You can by a lot with that money....like, I don't know.....Congress maybe?

I'm not trying to offend or provoke, but I wonder if YOU get it?

I have stopped buying into the Democrat/Republican wrestling theatrics.

I can only hope that Joe Six Pack wakes up some day and realizes that American Political Wrestling, much like it's far more respectable professional wrestling counterpart....is NOT real.....it's artificial...it's theatre.....being an ardent advocate for his favorite Democrat wrestler and booing his Republican opponent in the ring is simply embarrassing.

Half a billion+ in one year from the healthcare division of FIRE is big money.

With that much money being thrown around, anyone who believes a member of Congress will consistently take the phone call of a family or small business owner in financial strife due to spiraling healthcare costs while leaving AHIP on hold is either naive or disinegenuous.

Right or wrong, my stance has been that ANY reform(finance, tort, healthcare, tax, social security, etc) that comes before POLITICAL reform is pointless, when we already suck so bad at democracy.

Healthcare reform is a shiny spinner hubcap on a broken cart being pulled by a very sick horse.

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: Here we go...Health Care 'Reform' passes

I just noticed this item - The Medicus Firm Physician Survey: Health Reform May Lead to Significant Reduction in Physician Workforce:

nearly one-third of physicians responding to the survey indicated that they will want to leave medical practice after health reform is implemented

[c1ue]

Re: Here we go...Health Care 'Reform' passes

Ask the rest of the developed world how much they hate their socialized medical care and they will tell you that you must be american.

This is not a perfect bill. But it is a start.

And it will be very popular.

And where are you getting this information from?

The actual polls out there show anything but 'very popular' - it looks much more like an even split:

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/publ...th_care_reform

The latest Rasmussen Reports national telephone poll, taken Friday and Saturday nights, shows that 41% of likely voters favor the health care plan. Fifty-four percent (54%) are opposed. These figures have barely budged in recent months.
Another finding that has remained constant is that the intensity is stronger among those who oppose the plan. The latest findings include 26% who Strongly Favor the plan and 45% who Strongly Oppose it.
The partisan divide remains constant as well. Seventy-four percent (74%) of Democrats favor the plan, while 87% of Republicans are opposed. As for those not affiliated with either major party, 34% are in favor, and 59% are opposed.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/126929/sl...l-passage.aspx

Gallup health care 032310.gif

As for a first step to socialized medicine - that's a complete load of crap.

1) It isn't universal. It only cuts down the uninsured by taking $500M from Medicare
2) It isn't national - the existing health care insurance companies are still the administrators on the money side. All other 'national' health care systems are government run
3) It doesn't provide any sort of health care supply/provision - again something which ALL national health care systems do

As for the Huffington Post 18 steps, let's look at these in detail:

1) No denial of coverage for pre-existing conditions.

Great, but the bill DOESN'T stipulate the resulting insurance costs must be affordable. Forcing more people to buy insurance allows the insurance companies to just raise their rates less.

2) Small Business Tax credits.

up to 50% tax credits isn't going to do squat. The small businesses who choose to provide health insurance get some subsidies, but otherwise it is the individuals who are forced to get health insurance or pay a punitive fee. This is a subsidy not a plan.

3) Donut hole rebate

Medicare spending at work - or to say, more Medicare spending hence more Medicare taxes in the future. Generational warfare.

4) More Young Adults covered on parent's plan

See 1). Nothing to stop the plans from being more expensive.

5) No Lifetime Caps

Again, see 1). Everything is an actuarial calculation; removing a cap simply makes the premium higher. And if the out of pocket costs are too high, then the care itself becomes unaffordable. BFD.

6) High Risk Pool

This is nice - it basically removes any short term impact of 'pre-existing' adults coming into the insurance pool until 2014...using government money. This is a revolution?

7) All plans must provide for free preventative care

Great, so if a patient chooses to employ preventative care - they won't have to pay a co-pay. So the $20 they pay now (if they have insurance) is a barrier to use of this medical service? And who pays for those who don't make use of it? BFD.

8) No more recissions

This is a good provision, but not when combined with all the other crap.

9) Insurers must be more transparent

Again, BFD. We already know how much insurers spend on overhead - it is every single dollar spent on anything besides postage, the internet, and payments to providers.

10) An appeals process for claims etc

Unless this is different than the other 'appeals' processes, like the binding arbitration crap on credit cards, just lipstick on a pig.

11) Tax on indoor tanning

You're kidding right? Stupid bullcrap. Now tanning is a sin - i.e. sin tax? What about hair coloring? Manicures? hair removal?

12) Enhanced Fraud Abuse checks

Uh, isn't that something that should already be done? Why does this have to be in legislation?

13) Medicare expansion to rural areas

This is nice, but ever wonder WHY Medicare doesn't extend there now? Perhaps because administration and oversight is too expensive?

14) Minimum of 85 percent Loss Ratio

Sounds nice, but the average loss ratio in the industry is 87 percent now.

So what exactly does this law accomplish? If anything, it will allow a reduction in the overall loss ratio - since the law allows as low a ratio as 80:

http://www.kaiserhealthnews.org/Stor.../insurers.aspx

The Senate bill sets an 85 percent minimum for plans sold to large groups and 80 percent for policies marketed to small groups and individuals. The House bill’s 85 percent requirement applies to all insurance categories. The remaining revenue would go for expenses such as marketing, claims processing, executive salaries, commissions to sales agents and profits. Certain nonprofit insurers that spend at least 92 percent of their revenue on medical care would be exempt from an excise tax the Senate bill levies on insurers.

Currently, insurers spend an average of 87 cents of every premium dollar on direct medical care, says the industry's trade lobby, America's Health Insurance Plans. Other estimates - including some from Wall Street analysts - put the average spent on medical care in the low 80s.

15) Nutrient Content Disclosure statement

BFD. The chain restaurants already provide a form listing calories for those few who want it. Add a few pages. So what.

16) Subsidies for insurance companies providing early retirement health insurance

Medicare money at work. Spend it now - that's nice as the Boomer bulge continues to exit the work force. Medicare premiums to go up.

This is straight generational warfare.

17) A new web site for the HHS

This is a law? BFD.

18) A 2 year credit for new disease therapy development

And how is this different than the existing NIH spending?
---------------------------------------------------------------

Summary: A couple of reasonable provisions which could easily have passed as independent laws coupled with a combination of subsidies to insurers, subsidies to Boomers, and lipstick on this pig

Or in other words, more Obama crap.

[Thailandnotes]

Re: Here we go...Health Care 'Reform' passes

A few unrelated thoughts on healthcare...

1
If you live in a country that allows insurance companies to deny coverage of pre-existing conditions, you should consider moving before you reach your fifties. Without being fat or really out of shape, a large percentage of westerners develop mild high blood pressure in their forties. This pre-existing condition denies coverage for stroke and heart attack related illnesses.
2
Current curriculum in most western high schools is antiquated even if such curriculum follows the International Baccalaureate or some similar national standards. There is no excuse for not converting the math and science curriculum to something that basically trains every high school graduate to be a nurse or gets them half way there.
3
I am fifty-four. If I had taken all the money I have paid for health insurance and the money that was paid for me by my employers and I had gotten 6 percent interest, I would now have slightly more than a million dollars to spend on health care.
4
My brother was in a car wreck in Canada a decade or so ago. As an American tourist his bills were totally covered by the Canadian government. It was a bad wreck. His bills quickly exceeded the figure in paragraph 3.
5
The American government budgets more than half its tax revenue for military spending.
Universal healthcare for Americans = less than a fifteen percent cut in military spending. Richard Nixon will be remembered for three things. Watergate will be third. Escalating the Vietnam War to the point where borrowing forced the US off the gold standard will be second. First will be getting rid of the draft.

[bobola]

Re: Here we go...Health Care 'Reform' passes

I'm all for voluntarily living a healthy lifestyle. But advocating mandatory physicals and possible imprisonment for being sick reads like a dystopian scifi novel. Perhaps you don't mind being property of the state but many of us would not care for that privilege.

If there was more personal responsibility for health and finances, we wouldn't be facing an uncertain future.

Case in point; I work with a guy who weighs 350+ lbs and a diabetic, who has filed for bankrupcy a few years ago. His unwise choices cost all of us dearly.

I'm not proposing an Orwellian society, where Big Brother rules everything, but there has to be limits on unhealthy behaviors if we all pay the bill later.