With hard times, the predators on the desperate emerge: For Profit Education

[BigBagel]

Re: With hard times, the predators on the desperate emerge: For Profit Education

Plumber would get my vote.

Yesterday while talking to a customer about having a bath finished in his basement, because I want to do the same thing in mine, I asked him what kind of quotes he was getting on the plumbing. $2400 was about the average! The Plumber said he could knock it out on a Saturday. Subtract $600 for the parts and pump needed, you have $1800 labor. Pay the helper $100 cash and a tidy $1700 profit for one day's work. :eek: Of course he'll have to come back and set the fixtures for a couple of hours. So call it a day and half.

I'm telling you, if you can deal with the lack of prestige, plumbing is not a bad profession. You'll just be putting up with shit literally instead of figuratively.

The Rolex and Lexus will knock the stink off of you.

[Ponce]

Re: With hard times, the predators on the desperate emerge: For Profit Education

Unless you are going to be a Dr, Engineer ,and so on, then going to college is a waste of time.

I for one only went to the 10th grade and now I am very comfy by inventing something and starting my own company, I gave myself 10-12 years to make X ammount of money and I did it in only six years......sold the company and retired.

What makes me "rich" is not what I have but rather what I don't have, debts.

There is need and there is greed........don't confuse one with the other one.

"If you don't hold it, you don't own it"... Ponce

[jpatter666]

Re: With hard times, the predators on the desperate emerge: For Profit Education

I would much rather invest the time and money to:

a) Travel

or

b) Start a business

or

c) Both


Than "purchasing" an MBA.

(sigh....)

I'm living with that decision. My wife attended a "premium" MBA school and ran up $100K in debt. I suppose all and well if she had joined a major international company (International Business MBA) but instead she joined a major charitable NGO because she wanted to "serve".

And I'm not against that at all -- in fact, it's rather odd, they have a recent Harvard grad (also MBA) and several other top schools working there. But the pay is exactly what you'd think for a non-profit. An early question from me on all this was "didn't you learn the concept of return on investment when there??"

When we met, the debts would have been paid off just before she retired. When I asked about them, she said it wasn't a problem because she could "afford the payments" [absolutely my LEAST favorite phrase].

Fortunately for us, she's a quick study and now hates debt even more than me (no fanatic like a converted fanatic) and we hope to have *everything* included the mortgage killed off this year. But I feel sorry for those who IMO have been sold a story -- the education racket is almost as bad as the housing racket. Hmmmmm.....might be a storyline in there for Scott....

[MulaMan]

Re: With hard times, the predators on the desperate emerge: For Profit Education

Yes, education in America has also been destroyed by wall-street greed. People have not made the connection of educational lending and destruction of quality in schools.

Notice the capture of schools by wall-street and corrupt congress? We lend your students millions of dollars and then once in debt send the debt slaves over to us and we will put them to work.

You go to school in America, show up to class and get all As. If you do not go to class you get a B.

[wayiwalk]

Re: With hard times, the predators on the desperate emerge: For Profit Education

Great thread here, and so sad.

Seems like this country will do anything to enslave a few more citizens with debt.

On other comments above, I think the electrician also has something on the plumber.

We're doing some very minor remodeling in our house, something that will involve (from the electrical side) moving a light switch, adding some new lighting, etc in a closet and a room.

Some quotes were absurd, as in >$5K for what is around 1 1/2 days work.

These guys must make some doctors jealous.

[thriftyandboringinohio]

Re: With hard times, the predators on the desperate emerge: For Profit Education

Yes, education in America has also been destroyed by wall-street greed. People have not made the connection of educational lending and destruction of quality in schools.

Notice the capture of schools by wall-street and corrupt congress? We lend your students millions of dollars and then once in debt send the debt slaves over to us and we will put them to work.

You go to school in America, show up to class and get all As. If you do not go to class you get a B.

Yes, sad indeed. With 2 in college now, I have some recent personal experience.

I find the elite schools totally out of consideration on both price and admissions. No mortal gets in; you have better odds of winning the lottery.

The name brand schools (Purdue, OSU, UCLA…) seem to be trying like mad to become elite schools. My alma mater, The Ohio State University, now routinely rejects Ohio students with both a 4.0 GPA and a varsity starter jacket as not good enough to enroll. They would never accept me today. Of course, my state tax dollars are welcome there, but not my honor student children. My daughter snuck into the main campus university there by the back door of a branch campus and is trying to get admitted into a college at OSU. We’ll see.

Lesser colleges like smaller community colleges and smaller state colleges seem to be rushing in to fill the void of educating the average college-bound student to be engineers, nurses, teachers and accountants. That’s a good thing; reasonable admissions and reasonable prices for solid, legitimate education.

Unfortunately the diploma mills and name-brand schools seem to be gobbling up far too much of available funding, producing either worthless certificates on the one hand or huge showcase campuses for a tiny fraction of the pampered poodle students on the other hand. Not much left for Kent State or North Dakota State or other great public schools.

[jheis]

Re: With hard times, the predators on the desperate emerge: For Profit Education

My page is showing an ad for the University of Phoenix and earnmydegree.com. In my opinion, these companies are leeches on society on the public dole when the majority of their student's tuition is paid for by Federal grants and loans.

[thriftyandboringinohio]

Re: With hard times, the predators on the desperate emerge: For Profit Education

My page is showing an ad for the University of Phoenix and earnmydegree.com. In my opinion, these companies are leeches on society on the public dole when the majority of their student's tuition is paid for by Federal grants and loans.

Agreed. I researched them last week, and old friend wants to be an adult student, can no longer find work in construction. They are a worthless scam, and are the biggest recipient of Pell grants in the US. The Carlyle Group just formed a billion dollar global joint venture with Pheonix ( i.e. Appolo Global Inc), a sure sign of a good old-fashioned looting operation.

[Ghent12]

Re: With hard times, the predators on the desperate emerge: For Profit Education

Who was that one crazy guy running for public office that said Federal Student Aid is the cause of making education more unaffordable? Oh yeah, it was Schiff


Good job TPC on saving your son from one outlet of debt slavery. Be careful though, there are numerous other opportunities as I'm sure you're aware!

[leegs]

Re: With hard times, the predators on the desperate emerge: For Profit Education

Any thoughts from iTulipers on the future of higher education in the US?

It's not an easy analysis......does the higher wage earned with a Harvard pedigree justify the premium cost?

Does the no-frills cost of Phoenix online achieve a higher return on investment, but is it matched with a lower wage "purchase"?

At the moment, I think I want my kids to either be Biotechnologists or plumbers.

I wonder if higher education in the US will survive what I think will be an inevitable slaughter without a massive bailout of higher education in the form of some Manhattan Project sized energy independence Apollo Project.

Not good........

What a good thread generally, and your question/comment encapsulates it quite well. I think about this a lot - our daughter is 13, and quite smart. It seems like heresy to consider that maybe she shouldn't go to college. However for all the reasons discussed here, its not obvious to me that she should, even if we are able to pay for much of it.
One aspect of the discussion is this: it is difficult to argue with the statistics that show the significantly higher lifetime incomes for college graduates (ignoring the current depression and the student debt situation). However what is not discussed is the sacrifice required to make these incomes, said sacrifice being beyond the cost/time of school. I'm talking about the requirement to become a wheel in the corporate machine, which I found personally after 20 years to be untenable. So much wasted energy.
I think that pursuing even a modest entrepreneurial approach, being an independent 'hustler' (not in the con-man sense), is going to be the better way to go for smart quick young folks in the near and not-so-near future.

[c1ue]

Re: With hard times, the predators on the desperate emerge: For Profit Education

What a good thread generally, and your question/comment encapsulates it quite well. I think about this a lot - our daughter is 13, and quite smart. It seems like heresy to consider that maybe she shouldn't go to college. However for all the reasons discussed here, its not obvious to me that she should, even if we are able to pay for much of it.
One aspect of the discussion is this: it is difficult to argue with the statistics that show the significantly higher lifetime incomes for college graduates (ignoring the current depression and the student debt situation). However what is not discussed is the sacrifice required to make these incomes, said sacrifice being beyond the cost/time of school. I'm talking about the requirement to become a wheel in the corporate machine, which I found personally after 20 years to be untenable. So much wasted energy.
I think that pursuing even a modest entrepreneurial approach, being an independent 'hustler' (not in the con-man sense), is going to be the better way to go for smart quick young folks in the near and not-so-near future.

I think the thing to keep in mind is that spending 4 years and not TOO much money in a college education is still worthwhile. If nothing else, it is a checkmark should a corporate job be necessary - and in Europe and Japan is sometimes an actual requirement for higher level positions.

Just don't cough up $100K or more for the top unless there really is an overriding reason - or the money is irrelevant to you.

[jpatter666]

Re: With hard times, the predators on the desperate emerge: For Profit Education

What a good thread generally, and your question/comment encapsulates it quite well. I think about this a lot - our daughter is 13, and quite smart. It seems like heresy to consider that maybe she shouldn't go to college. However for all the reasons discussed here, its not obvious to me that she should, even if we are able to pay for much of it.
One aspect of the discussion is this: it is difficult to argue with the statistics that show the significantly higher lifetime incomes for college graduates (ignoring the current depression and the student debt situation). However what is not discussed is the sacrifice required to make these incomes, said sacrifice being beyond the cost/time of school. I'm talking about the requirement to become a wheel in the corporate machine, which I found personally after 20 years to be untenable. So much wasted energy.
I think that pursuing even a modest entrepreneurial approach, being an independent 'hustler' (not in the con-man sense), is going to be the better way to go for smart quick young folks in the near and not-so-near future.

OK, this is admittedly biased opinion from me, but here goes.

1 ) In most professions, the cream can still rise to the top. This is (mostly) a merit-based society, and if you are a natural genius (or extremely competent) in your field, the degree usually doesn't matter.
2 ) Corollary: there are certain fields where the "union" ticket *requires* a degree (lawyers, doctors). I have found that within any of these "club" professions, where you got your degree matters MUCH more.
3 ) I see much the same sort of behavior in research institutes.

Thinking about it, the higher the possibility for your (mis)behavior to be cause for a lawsuit, the more it is likely the employer *demands* a degree. Interesting -- I'd never made that connection before.

On a side note, in my profession (CS) I'd never go back to "formal" training except for the theory work. Anything practical that is taught is obsolete by the time the book is out there.....

[flintlock]

Re: With hard times, the predators on the desperate emerge: For Profit Education

On a side note, in my profession (CS) I'd never go back to "formal" training except for the theory work. Anything practical that is taught is obsolete by the time the book is out there.....

I used to play cards with a computer whiz type. He didn't go to college yet wrote several books on the subject and apparently his employer paid him a ton of money to maintain their systems. He said what you did. Things move so fast the stuff being taught in colleges is obsolete.

About these studies that show the benefit of a 4 year degree. I have often wondered how much of that increase in pay was due to the actual education vs how much was due to the drive and ambition of someone who was willing to sit through 4 years of school and pay too much for it. I suspect a lot of these would succeed regardless of education level. I think the time is coming where a lot of people who would have gone to college in the past will simply forgo it for both financial and lifestyle reasons. It just doesn't seem to pay off like it used to.

[thriftyandboringinohio]

Re: With hard times, the predators on the desperate emerge: For Profit Education

I have often wondered how much of that ...was due to the actual education vs how much was due to the drive and ambition of someone who was willing to sit through 4 years of school and pay too much for it.

Bingo. I've hired people and use that logic for entry level technical positions that don’t necessarily require a degree. I don't expect a young person to have any real trade skill or business experience. The diploma means they've proven they can show up regularly, learn things, and turn in acceptable work. Not always, but true more often than not. The subjects their professors taught them have little or no value to me; I seek the ambition and drive you mention.

[flintlock]

Re: With hard times, the predators on the desperate emerge: For Profit Education

Bingo. I seek the ambition and drive you mention.

This is one of the hardest traits to find in the blue collar people I've hired over the years. Almost like ambition is a dirty word in their world. I can see a total difference in say, a young college student just wanting a summer job. They get it. I'm convinced this has a lot to do with the "success" of college vs non-college grads. College trains the mind to learn. To accept information. Much like the military in that regard.