British Sovereigns or Krugerrands?

[aaron]

Re: British Sovereigns or Krugerrands?

Oh, i didnt get what you were saying at first... I think i got it now... But, there is always a premium.. For a 20 dollar diff it doesnt quite make sense to not go with coins... Its that they are world known...

You go anywhere and both soveriegns and krugs are known, so are you advocating one over the other?

Without reading this site, I would have said WTF is a Sovereign. They are not universally known. Krugs are. And, looking at a picture, they kind of look like toys.

My opinion.. if you want to get a coin, buy Maples, Eagles, or Krugerrand.

[gnk]

Re: British Sovereigns or Krugerrands?

Without reading this site, I would have said WTF is a Sovereign. They are not universally known. Krugs are. And, looking at a picture, they kind of look like toys.

My opinion.. if you want to get a coin, buy Maples, Eagles, or Krugerrand.

Sovereigns are well known globally - and have been around far longer than Krugs. We Americans think we know what is "universal" - we don't.

US Paratroopers in WWII were given sovereigns to use as money if they were in a jam, and I have also read the same were given out during Deseret Storm.

Sovereigns are very well known wherever the English Empire used to be - which is everywhere. They have financially saved people (turned into refugees) all around the world.

[karim0028]

Re: British Sovereigns or Krugerrands?

Sovereigns are well known globally - and have been around far longer than Krugs. We Americans think we know what is "universal" - we don't.

US Paratroopers in WWII were given sovereigns to use as money if they were in a jam, and I have also read the same were given out during Deseret Storm.

Sovereigns are very well known wherever the English Empire used to be - which is everywhere. They have financially saved people (turned into refugees) all around the world.

Yup! So well known in fact that they are used as jewlery center pieces (necklaces, etc) all around the world... In Egypt, i've seen friends of the family use them as jewelery and then when they need them, they remove it from jewelery and sell it for quick access to cash...

Its very well known and liquid. In the US few may know them, but outside they are very well known.... Come to think of it, i've never seen Krugs outside the US (in Egypt anyway).... People that buy gold in the middle east usually buy sovereigns or the pamp suisse bars; i've seen folks walk out of a gold dealer with a box of 1 oz pamp suisse bars......

[Marek]

Re: British Sovereigns or Krugerrands?

Its very well known and liquid. In the US few may know them, but outside they are very well known.... Come to think of it, i've never seen Krugs outside the US (in Egypt anyway).... People that buy gold in the middle east usually buy sovereigns or the pamp suisse bars; i've seen folks walk out of a gold dealer with a box of 1 oz pamp suisse bars......

You make the excellent point that the best choice has everything to do with your reasons for holding gold and where you live!

[Rotwang]

Re: British Sovereigns or Krugerrands?

Yes they appear to have some anecdotal relation to 'legal tender' status in SA

However, they are not imprinted with the monetary symbol of the nation.
South Africa can be observed in the 'strike'.
No numerical reference. Just the 'floating' 'KRUGERRAND'
and the numerical reference to 1 oz of fine gold (in translation)

So question for you:
Are ounces of fine gold the subject of 'legal tender' laws in SA?

Or is KRUGERRAND a monetary unit of that realm.

Maples, and Eagles deal with this ambiguity differently.
For Eagles look up USC. Money. Sec 5112.

Each of which (maples and eagles), are indistinguishable on an accounting ledger from paper equivalents. Access to the cash drawer is a different equality. A "Grant" for an Eagle ... not sure which quean gets traded for the maple.

[Marek]

Re: British Sovereigns or Krugerrands?

Yes they appear to have some anecdotal relation to 'legal tender' status in SA

However, they are not imprinted with the monetary symbol of the nation.
South Africa can be observed in the 'strike'.
No numerical reference. Just the 'floating' 'KRUGERRAND'
and the numerical reference to 1 oz of fine gold (in translation)

So question for you:
Are ounces of fine gold the subject of 'legal tender' laws in SA?

Or is KRUGERRAND a monetary unit of that realm.

Maples, and Eagles deal with this ambiguity differently.
For Eagles look up USC. Money. Sec 5112.

Each of which (maples and eagles), are indistinguishable on an accounting ledger from paper equivalents. Access to the cash drawer is a different equality. A "Grant" for an Eagle ... not sure which quean gets traded for the maple.

My best reading of available literature says the question of legal tender depends upon the context. In the question of taxable sales, I believe only US legal tender coins are granted legal tender exemption from taxes. These links refer to law in FL and TX respectively:

https://taxlaw.state.fl.us/view.aspx...trative%20Code

http://aixtcp.cpa.state.tx.us/opendo.../0192a05l.html

But we know that in the case of ownership, the Krugerrand and other coins deemed legal tender in foreign countries do carry legal tender status.

So in my mind there is an open question. And to further cloud the matter; I believe that once capital controls begin to be imposed we have no way of knowing what the rules might be and what existing case law might be overturned. So you can say Krugerrands are safer than bars or Maples better than Krugerrands or Eagles better than any of them. But we don't really know. For consider this: just as the masses vilify Wall Street workers bonuses today, can you really expect the masses (who will have no PMs) to defend your PM holdings in times of monetary crisis? Those with PMs may well be seen as the monetary elite and garner no sympathy.

In the end I think you point out an even broader definition of my statement above - to understand what legal tender status means to you, you have to first understand what you are protecting yourself against.

[Rotwang]

Re: British Sovereigns or Krugerrands?

You hit it on the spot there!
Protecting against whom/what?
The underlying protection historically goes back to protecting yourself from the 'Man'. He who taketh under guise of law and order.

But you mis-understood the arbitrage/taxable issue.

Ponder that you are in possession of a duality, a bullion coin, that is also legal tender money in some realm. Are you as the possessor forbidden to treat it as the "money" (the law declares it to be), and volunteer it into circulation in a privately negotiated money denominated transaction for "stuff" that you might want to own.

The arbitrage here raises it's ugly head, if this is a "taxable" transaction. The "amount" for the basis of tax computation is what?

In this instance the reverse of Gresham's law applies, provided the eagles and the franklins, or the maples and the queen are treated at par on the books. In the Usa, a couple of Eagles, and 8 Washington's might just settle for the stuff. You get the stuff, the counterparty gets the eagles, and 8% gets mailed off to the 'man'.

You merely choose to treat them equally, and the Texas example might support that. Not that the collector in TX would be pleased to see his 'share' of the deal arbitraged by the reverse ratio of the value of money to scrip.

[Marek]

Re: British Sovereigns or Krugerrands?

You hit it on the spot there!
Protecting against whom/what?
The underlying protection historically goes back to protecting yourself from the 'Man'. He who taketh under guise of law and order.

But you mis-understood the arbitrage/taxable issue.

.....................

You merely choose to treat them equally, and the Texas example might support that. Not that the collector in TX would be pleased to see his 'share' of the deal arbitraged by the reverse ratio of the value of money to scrip.

In the event we need protection from The Man, I do not believe a fool-proof strategy can be known. The historical record shows The Man has a knack for redefining the rules as deemed necessary. So, as they say, past results should not be taken as a prediction of the future. My advice is to hone your wits and be prepared.

[Rotwang]

Re: British Sovereigns or Krugerrands?

In the event we need protection from The Man, I do not believe a fool-proof strategy can be known. The historical record shows The Man has a knack for redefining the rules as deemed necessary. So, as they say, past results should not be taken as a prediction of the future. My advice is to hone your wits and be prepared.

Actually I did. I asked the question of the Washington Secretary of State about 15 years ago (wasn't as honed then). Refused to answer. Actually at this juncture in time, when the "debt as money" paradigm is experiencing small problems due to mathematical compounding etc., and where decreases in aggregated outstanding debt implies a reduction in GDP, aka implosion of the "growth" economy (recession/depression), I believe it would be worthwhile for many people to obtain a "letter of determination" from their "Secretaries of State", whether the "State" recognizes circulating American Eagles as money, should "money" be proffered in exchange for goods or services.

[DRumsfeld2000]

Re: British Sovereigns or Krugerrands?

I was recommended by a major dealer in the UK to buy krugerrands as they are the most plentiful and liquid. The coins are legal tender. Last time I looked there was quite a premium on them, somewhere around 8%, but that was when there was a shortage of coins in the market. Maybe things have improved.

[globaleconomicollaps]

Re: British Sovereigns or Krugerrands?

Recently I have been thinking about gold ownership. I decided that I didn't want to have Gold bars or coins in the house, so I contacted Brinks to find out about vault space and shipping. I found that they have a minimum of $45.00/month for storage which would cover any reasonable amount of gold or silver. They require credit card auth and a application I will attach.

Shipping is a different matter. They will only ship to a company. you have to have a company that they trust to receive the gold. The T.S.A. wants details ( see form ) .


They will only let you use vaults in a few places ( paris, new york, Los Angeles ) and the vaults are business hours only.

[karim0028]

Re: British Sovereigns or Krugerrands?

I was recommended by a major dealer in the UK to buy krugerrands as they are the most plentiful and liquid. The coins are legal tender. Last time I looked there was quite a premium on them, somewhere around 8%, but that was when there was a shortage of coins in the market. Maybe things have improved.

I dont quite understand the term "more liquid" in regards to different types of gold... Gold is gold, sovereign or kruggerand... Last i checked whenever i went into a gold dealer the lowest amount i got paid was the spot price or 1 or 2 dollars below spot (unless of course its a messed up piece of gold that was run over by a meat grinder), every gold dealer should know a sovereign, bc every other person in the world knows that coin......

Sovereigns actually look kind of cool and are small enough that they actually are used in alot of necklace jewlery...

[DRumsfeld2000]

Re: British Sovereigns or Krugerrands?

Karim

Most liquid clarification. Whether it makes a difference or not in all countries I do not know. His reason was that 1oz krugerrands are the most numerous 1oz gold coins in existance and therefore liquid in terms of 'acceptance'. In my experience you get a slightly better premium with 1oz krugerrands.