Is Democracy In Crisis?

[Aetius Romulous]

U.K. Teeters on the Brink of Its Own Greek Debt Tragedy

"The fiscal crisis in Greece and a growing worry that the coming elections here could result in a hung Parliament, with no political party strong enough to push through unpopular deficit-cutting measures, have sparked fears that Britain will experience its own sovereign-debt meltdown."


It is clear that dramatic, long term policy measures must be implemented by western governments to address the exponentially growing calamity that is our modern world. No argument by anybody there.

However, in growing degrees, western democracies appear to be ham strung by politics and procedure. Nothing of substance is being accomplished anywhere it seems. Is it time to consider that democracy itself may be contributing to the problem?

[don]

Re: Is Democracy In Crisis?

Is it time to consider that democracy itself may be contributing to the problem?

Then there's a flag waiting for you, along with snazzy uniforms ;)

[Sharky]

Re: Is Democracy In Crisis?

It is clear that dramatic, long term policy measures must be implemented by western governments to address the exponentially growing calamity that is our modern world. No argument by anybody there.

However, in growing degrees, western democracies appear to be ham strung by politics and procedure. Nothing of substance is being accomplished anywhere it seems. Is it time to consider that democracy itself may be contributing to the problem?

Democracy absolutely is contributing to the problem. Society has devolved into mob rule: economic, social and political gangs are battling each other for power, using democracy as their weapon of choice.

However, the solution is most definitely not "drastic, long term policy measures" that are "implemented by western governments." In fact, it's the reverse: government needs to get the hell out of the way when it comes to economic policy. The only solution that can work in the long run is true freedom and support for individual rights and personal responsibility.

Socialism or fascism, which is the path the western world is currently on, will just accentuate mob rule, not improve it. History is very clear about that.

[Aetius Romulous]

Re: Is Democracy In Crisis?

Democracy absolutely is contributing to the problem. Society has devolved into mob rule: economic, social and political gangs are battling each other for power, using democracy as their weapon of choice.

However, the solution is most definitely not "drastic, long term policy measures" that are "implemented by western governments." In fact, it's the reverse: government needs to get the hell out of the way when it comes to economic policy. The only solution that can work in the long run is true freedom and support for individual rights and personal responsibility.

Socialism or fascism, which is the path the western world is currently on, will just accentuate mob rule, not improve it. History is very clear about that.

Well, I would say a policy change that removes government such as you suggest would need to be "long term" and pretty "dramatic". So I guess we agree. I may not be as gung-ho on the solution as you are however, but it is a solution with some serious legs right now for sure.

[iyamwutiam]

Re: Is Democracy In Crisis?

I am not sure if we could ever say we had a representative democracy in its truest sense. The decision process never flows from the local to supra-local level. Which is what a democracy should do -rather like the Jirgas or tribal meetings. Instead -it is always downhill -from Fed>State>Local.

When it behooves them -like trying to outlaw guns or waffle of abortion -then all of a sudden the states have 'rights' or we talk about home rule. Somehow this only applies to few issues -lowering BAC levels were 'induced' by the threat of federal funds disappearing that used to flow to said entities.

Lastly- the never ending charade of huge punitive awards published prominently in the paper to embed a false sense of fairness in the public's mind -and INVARIABLY followed by an appellate decision that marginalizes the original decision's and quietly reduce penalties by vast amounts -see Enron/Exxon-Valdez/PFizer -Humana, ad nauseum.

Now thanks to electronic voting -they can pretend to count the votes faster -funny how Kerry and Gore were comfortably ahead and you woke up tp find Bush president -again. And quite honestly - I think the naivete cup runneth over -if one actually 'believes' these guys are making the decisions -all I have to say is -never have so many super rich stumbled over themselves to do public service except the US. Corizine, Paulson, Cheney, Bush, Bloomberg or married wealth stooges (William Clinton Rodham or Barack Obama Robinson).

As Joe Bageant rightly pointed out -it is with breath taking unity when democrats and republics reach across the aisle and unanimously vote to increase the deficit, increase the military budget, vote for sanctions on some meaningless distractor (Iran/North Korea/Venezuela) andof course the most mighty diety of them all -War.

[sunskyfan]

Re: Is Democracy In Crisis?

I think democracy has kept us from killing each other up to this point. If we collapse it won't be democracy's fault. It will be our fault. There is a reckoning going on and so far we have been able to keep it peaceful. This fantasy of "no or minimal government" is a nice one. So is Shangri-La.

[Sharky]

Re: Is Democracy In Crisis?

Well, I would say a policy change that removes government such as you suggest would need to be "long term" and pretty "dramatic". So I guess we agree.

Fair enough.

The point I was trying to make is that today's governments will never decide to take themselves out of the picture.

[iyamwutiam]

Re: Is Democracy In Crisis?

I think democracy has kept us from killing each other up to this point. If we collapse it won't be democracy's fault. It will be our fault. There is a reckoning going on and so far we have been able to keep it peaceful. This fantasy of "no or minimal government" is a nice one. So is Shangri-La.

Ahh the spector of anarchy/chaos and ruin if not for some 'beneficent' hand in firm control -- by your consent of course. How utterly monarchic - oh please Mr. Representative save me from myself and others. If not for the army and police we would all just spontaneously devolve into raging bands of cannibalists.

Pshaw!

[Aetius Romulous]

Re: Is Democracy In Crisis?

Fair enough.

The point I was trying to make is that today's governments will never decide to take themselves out of the picture.

Agreed. Which sucks by the look of things.

[Aetius Romulous]

Re: Is Democracy In Crisis?

I am not sure if we could ever say we had a representative democracy in its truest sense. The decision process never flows from the local to supra-local level. Which is what a democracy should do -rather like the Jirgas or tribal meetings. Instead -it is always downhill -from Fed>State>Local.

When it behooves them -like trying to outlaw guns or waffle of abortion -then all of a sudden the states have 'rights' or we talk about home rule. Somehow this only applies to few issues -lowering BAC levels were 'induced' by the threat of federal funds disappearing that used to flow to said entities.

Lastly- the never ending charade of huge punitive awards published prominently in the paper to embed a false sense of fairness in the public's mind -and INVARIABLY followed by an appellate decision that marginalizes the original decision's and quietly reduce penalties by vast amounts -see Enron/Exxon-Valdez/PFizer -Humana, ad nauseum.

Now thanks to electronic voting -they can pretend to count the votes faster -funny how Kerry and Gore were comfortably ahead and you woke up tp find Bush president -again. And quite honestly - I think the naivete cup runneth over -if one actually 'believes' these guys are making the decisions -all I have to say is -never have so many super rich stumbled over themselves to do public service except the US. Corizine, Paulson, Cheney, Bush, Bloomberg or married wealth stooges (William Clinton Rodham or Barack Obama Robinson).

As Joe Bageant rightly pointed out -it is with breath taking unity when democrats and republics reach across the aisle and unanimously vote to increase the deficit, increase the military budget, vote for sanctions on some meaningless distractor (Iran/North Korea/Venezuela) andof course the most mighty diety of them all -War.

I'm not sure if this is any consolation, but it is starting to appear these are not American problems alone. American flavors of the same democratic gridlock that is gripping Parliamentary democracies as well. Good fun, eh?

[Sharky]

Re: Is Democracy In Crisis?

I think democracy has kept us from killing each other up to this point.

Nonsense. It's morality that keeps us from killing each other. I don't stop myself from hurting people because of some law. I don't do it because it's against my principles, and is immoral.

In fact, "democracy" (mob rule) is what allows countries to justify the murder of thousands of innocents, such as in Vietnam or Iraq--it's somehow "OK" because "it's for the greater good" or some such crap.

This fantasy of "no or minimal government" is a nice one. So is Shangri-La.

More nonsense. The government in the US was very minimal for its first century or so, and the country and its people did great. Hardly a fantasy. Of course, I'm not saying it would be easy or quick to return to an environment like that, but it's certainly possible.

[oddlots]

Re: Is Democracy In Crisis?

Where do these extravagant ambitions for democracy come from? I'll never understand it. The point of mass democracy is not representation. We are "represented" in one bill we agree with which is cancelled out by another we don't support. And, if you're talking about parliamentary democracy, that's true for those who supported the sitting government; the opposition aren't "represented" at all.

And I'm completely OK with that and I believe that's what democracy means ideally beyond a society of goatherders and artisans.

The point is not that we can get the right person in but that, when things get really dicey, we have a fighting chance of getting the wrong person or party out. It's like Karl Popper's notion of falsification: all we can really say is what's not true.

Politicians are simply technocrats. Managers. I don't care about their families, sex lives or religious beliefs, much less their values. In fact I respect them inversely to their effort to trade on such memes. I want to know that they can manage the nation's finances well and enforce existing laws effectively, extending the same when it's warranted.

What else - given the size and complexity of our societies - could democracy mean?

[grapejelly]

Re: Is Democracy In Crisis?

democracy is a deception. It is awful. What really counts is the limits on the gang of thieves called government. You can have a dictator, doesn't matter, but if the dictator's power is very limited, that is what counts. Private property is what counts, and respect for law that occurs between fellow property owners. Government is the antithesis of this. There is no real difference between systems, the majority rule is the same as the politburo rule. Difference is only with strong limitations on the power of government, which was what the US was founded on but which was quickly discarded of course.

[sunskyfan]

Re: Is Democracy In Crisis?

Democracy sublimates feudal violence into argument. Rules are debated and agreed upon. That is how it keeps from killing each other.

As to the comment of how well things worked the "first hundred years". It was pretty good unless you were a slave or a Native American. Slavery and genocide are hard to look past even with rose colored glasses.

Government is what you make of it ... including an enemy.

[Sharky]

Re: Is Democracy In Crisis?

democracy is a deception. It is awful. What really counts is the limits on the gang of thieves called government. You can have a dictator, doesn't matter, but if the dictator's power is very limited, that is what counts. Private property is what counts, and respect for law that occurs between fellow property owners. Government is the antithesis of this. There is no real difference between systems, the majority rule is the same as the politburo rule. Difference is only with strong limitations on the power of government, which was what the US was founded on but which was quickly discarded of course.

I never thought of it before quite like that, but I agree with you. Well said.

In addition to private property, though, I would also include individual rights as an important part of "what counts." For one thing, without individual rights, there can be no property rights.