Jobless Rate: The Truth Bubble?

[oddlots]

Re: Jobless Rate: The Truth Bubble?

It never occurred to me that Rajiv was surprised by the preponderence of unemployment in America's lower ranks; the point of the article was how skewed the experience of distress has become. The unspoken premise is that this yawning gap spells trouble. Think a society of extreme poverty and hopelessness for a great number and an oblivious ruling class. Doesn't bode well for a democratic nation, or any nation for that matter.

Regarding the question of Unions, it strikes me that the problem is mis-diagnosed here. The anglo tradition enforces a combative relationship between unions and management, whereas it's surely obvious on its face that there are more common interests than not. Contrast Germany where unions have a mandated presence on boards. I don't think its coincidental that Germany also has maintained a relatively healthy, mixed economy and remains an industrial powerhouse. I certainly wouldn't give it the decisive role (management maintaining control over apprenticeships in Germany would be far more decisive) but I also think its indicative of a more mature and sustainable politics.

[GRG55]

Re: Jobless Rate: The Truth Bubble?

Sounds like you hired a company like mine.

You are exactly right about what was considered skilled years ago may no longer be cutting it. But what has happened around here is, instead of growing skills, I've actually seen an decrease in skills on jobs. A mentality of trying to do things by rote using lower skilled, lower payed workers was prevalent in my area. I say was, because most of those companies have folded with the recession. Leaving companies like mine, battered, but still around. 75% of my business is now re-doing shitty work done by these "low bid" type companies. No one wants to invest in the time it takes to train people. My guess, considering the good job he did, is your plumber didn't just start doing plumbing last year.

The same thing happened here during the building boom earlier this decade. Anybody with a saw and a hammer was suddenly a "finishing carpenter". The wind down in new housing construction has weeded a lot of that out.

I have been doing most of the construction, from the cribbing on up, by myself with one hired hand. I am compulsively fussy about everything. But I have been fortunate to find outstanding local trades when I needed them. I found a local mason, Belgian trained with a real aptitude for working with brick, who produced some lovely results translating my wife's ideas into reality. The fellows that finished my concrete flatwork in the basement and garages worked all day on each pour and produced fabulous results. It takes real skill, knowledge and experience to do things properly, as you well know.

I think there's plenty of poor quality work from the boom that will need your fixing...

[thriftyandboringinohio]

Re: Jobless Rate: The Truth Bubble?

... It takes real skill, knowledge and experience to do things properly, as you well know...

That is an excellent point and many coporate mangers seem to have lost track of it. People are viewed as fully interchangeable, and long personal experience with a job seems to be vanishing. I loved buying suits in any department store from those old guys who had sold them their whole life -they knew so much and did it so well. We fired all those guys and replaced them with generic young clerks who work cheap but can't make a tube sock fit your foot.

As an engineer I see critical industries being hollowed out, with the last cadre of aging carreer experts about to retire without having passed the torch.

[MulaMan]

Re: Jobless Rate: The Truth Bubble?

People are generally paid more because their skills are more valuable and harder to find.

Wrong!

In our FIRE economy, all that matters is how CLOSE you are to the printing press and how much access you have to cheap money.

Mortgage Brokers and Real Estate agents with no real skills where making many times an engineer or doctor because they were part of the money pipeline - the bankers needed houses flipped and mortgages closed in order to keep leveraging up.

Financial sales reps, lenders, insurance sales, ... none of these careers require any special education but only sales skills and the ability to screw you neighbors and fellow citizens out of money. Yes 1 of 1 million financial sales people are reputable and a couple them actuall have "financial skills".

The most valuable "education" has been an MBA from Columbia, Harvard, Wharton where the "skill" is only to get in and join the club - jump onto the financial pyramid scheme.

A Wharton MBA is not the smartest but only those willing to do anything to get into the club and then become a foot solider for the fascist oligarch army.

[flintlock]

Re: Jobless Rate: The Truth Bubble?

I think there's plenty of poor quality work from the boom that will need your fixing...

I was just telling an employee yesterday who was bitching about this to consider it " job security".

Yes Engineer types are fussy. I can tell immediately when I have an engineer on the phone requesting service. They generally know exactly what they want and want to discuss 10 different ways to screw in a light bulb.;)

[thriftyandboringinohio]

Re: Jobless Rate: The Truth Bubble?

I was just telling an employee yesterday who was bitching about this to consider it " job security".

Yes Engineer types are fussy. I can tell immediately when I have an engineer on the phone requesting service. They generally know exactly what they want and want to discuss 10 different ways to screw in a light bulb.;)

How true! An engineer I know tried to get 5-1/2 inch HVAC ducting installed throughout his new house years ago -he'd done some calculations! He tried to convince the contractor, but for some reason that stuborn master tradesman kept laughing and saying "no"; stopped laughing and started cussing; and then walked away from the whole damn thing.

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: Jobless Rate: The Truth Bubble?

An engineer I know tried to get 5-1/2 inch HVAC ducting

For those such as myself, who are engineers at heart but lack an HVAC clue, could someone drop a hint as to what's wrong with 5-1/2 inch HVAC ducting?

Thanks!

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: Jobless Rate: The Truth Bubble?

oops - this post left intentionally blank.

[bcassill]

Re: Jobless Rate: The Truth Bubble?

the only reason unemployment is high is because REAL wages are too high.

Real wages have to fall for unemployment to fall.

This will happen through inflation. Cost of living will continue rising (it has been rising all along) and eventually real wages will have fallen low enough to cut employment down.

Okay, I just have to respond to this... What you presume here is only part of the issue. What you have to look at is the total cost of doing business or making things in the US vs. someplace like China. While the wage differences can be large, for manufacturing operations that are anything close to efficient, labor costs are a relatively small component of the cost of the final product. A short list of the really significant cost drivers include:

Health Coverage (whether through insurance in the US or tax receipts as in Europe)
Pension Liability (think Social Security and Medicare)
Health and Safety Compliance
Environmental Compliance

So here is the comparative line up between the US and China.

Health Coverage => US: Yes | China: No
Pension Liability => US: Yes | China: No
Health And Safety => Compliance US: Yes | China: No
Environmental Compliance => US: Yes | China: No

This is why China is now one giant cesspool of toxic waste, there are no pensions, and God help you if you get sick or seriously injured. No money = no medical care. So just think about this next time you go out to Walmart and buy that cheap plastic toy. The fact that you saved a couple of bucks means that someone halfway across the planet will have a few years shaved off their life. That is the real cost.

Sorry, but the whole wage argument is something cooked up by big business as a rationale for off shoring all kinds of American jobs from medical and IT to call centers and manufacturing so they could make an extra buck and pay out higher executive bonuses. Meanwhile, you and I pick up the tab every time one of these displaced workers goes the unemployment line. Interestingly enough, it was the big banks who were some of the biggest practitioners of the off shoring model. First they downsize you, then they want you to bail them out because of their own stupid business decisions.

Keep watching that Fox News, CNBC, and other news outlets that spew this garbage. Bleat occasionally, too. That's exactly the sound the Oligarchs want to hear.

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: Jobless Rate: The Truth Bubble?

Alligning using tables:

	US	China
Health Coverage	Yes	No
Pension Liability	Yes	No
Health And Safety Compliance	Yes	No
Environmental Compliance	Yes	No

P.S. -- I submitted the above before bcassill reformatted using '=>' arrows and inlining the US and China labels.

[thriftyandboringinohio]

Re: Jobless Rate: The Truth Bubble?

For those such as myself, who are engineers at heart but lack an HVAC clue, could someone drop a hint as to what's wrong with 5-1/2 inch HVAC ducting?

Thanks!

It's not a size of duct that is manufactured or available. 6 inch is standard stuff. Masters in a trade know all this good standard practice and available parts, while us engineers tend to be a little full of theory but short on practical knowlege.

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: Jobless Rate: The Truth Bubble?

It's not a size of duct that is manufactured or available. 6 inch is standard stuff.

Ok. Makes sense.

Heck, even nerdy old me knows not to be spec'ing parts that they don't make or sell.

[flintlock]

Re: Jobless Rate: The Truth Bubble?

Alligning using tables:

	US	China
Health Coverage	Yes	No
Pension Liability	Yes	No
Health And Safety Compliance	Yes	No
Environmental Compliance	Yes	No

P.S. -- I submitted the above before bcassill reformatted using '=>' arrows and inlining the US and China labels.

LOL. The anal-retentive cow.

[flintlock]

Re: Jobless Rate: The Truth Bubble?

How true! An engineer I know tried to get 5-1/2 inch HVAC ducting installed throughout his new house years ago -he'd done some calculations! He tried to convince the contractor, but for some reason that stuborn master tradesman kept laughing and saying "no"; stopped laughing and started cussing; and then walked away from the whole damn thing.

Or the Electrical Engineer who thought his house has 3 phase wiring because he saw three conductors coming into the home. :eek: True story.

Actually I usually like doing work for Engineers. They actually understand how things work. They don't ask me if I can install a wireless power outlet like one woman did once.

Or complain that the switch at the bottom of her stairs sometimes is on when its up and sometimes its off. ( Think about it)

[Sharky]

Re: Jobless Rate: The Truth Bubble?

This is why China is now one giant cesspool of toxic waste, there are no pensions, and God help you if you get sick or seriously injured. No money = no medical care. So just think about this next time you go out to Walmart and buy that cheap plastic toy. The fact that you saved a couple of bucks means that someone halfway across the planet will have a few years shaved off their life. That is the real cost.

Yes, the Chinese have poor medical care and no pensions.

Did they have those things before they started making cheap plastic toys?

What about food? An average Chinese factory worker is a helluva lot better off than one of his countrymen who is still working in the fields.

Same goes for child labor. Sure, it's bad. But is it worse than having the children starve? That's the alternative; it's not work-or-don't-work; it's work-or-starve.

So actually, no, buying stuff made in China doesn't shave years off the lives of people working there. If anything, it adds to them. It may, however, shave years off of your life, by moving jobs from the US to China--including perhaps your own--and thereby reducing your standard of living.