The Economic Elite Vs. The People of the United States of America

[Rajiv]

The Economic Elite Vs. The People of the United States of America

Part - I -- Part - II and other parts linked below

[raja]

Mr

The Economic Elite Vs. The People of the United States of America

Part - I -- Part - II and other parts linked below

Thanks, Rajiv

[Aetius Romulous]

Re: The Economic Elite Vs. The People of the United States of America

It is incredible the work that has gone into building the case for an evil "elite". Some of these folks have terrific data sets, and have spent a fortune pushing the message. They could contribute to the discussion in very important ways...until their paranoia shreds their credibility and they barrel down that road to nowhere.

Shame really.

[Rajiv]

Re: The Economic Elite Vs. The People of the United States of America

There is a systems design problem -- as the system has been designed/evolved, it may often lead to the perception of a conspiracy. However, it is the flaw in the system that allows individuals to take advantage of them, leading to the problems described. This is not to say that there are no conspiracies (in other words, individuals colluding together to achieve legal, illegal, ethical and unethical outcomes)

As pointed out in this article about Mitroff's book, and the teachings of my mentor - Ethics, Epistemology and “Dirty Rotten Strategies”

Ian Mitroff and Abraham Silvers’ book, Dirty Rotten Strategies: How We Trick Ourselves and Others into Solving the Wrong Problems Precisely, addresses the inability, prevalent among political, economic and cultural elites and the highly educated who serve them, to think critically and properly formulate problems. This incapacity results in Type 3 Errors, which

“is the unintentional error of solving the wrong problems precisely. In sharp contrast, the Type 4 Error is the intentional error of solving the wrong problems.” (Pg. 5)

Their book offers insight to those who share my conviction that our society is arrantly unsustainable yet unable/unwilling to recognize the natural ecological and fiscal/economic sources of our predicament. Those of us who think we are not a dead species walking will be enlightened and challenged by the thought exercises in epistemology (how we know what we know) and ethics (what we ought to do) found in this book.

The authors offer an integrated range of explanations for why political, corporate, military, medical, educational and cultural leaders end up honestly asking (Type 3 Error) or deceitfully devising (Type 4 Error) the wrong questions. Their framework is applicable to the economic contraction –and potential social collapse- now underway whose root or distal cause –in my view- is a decline in cheap net energy flows resulting from peak oil.
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[Aetius Romulous]

Re: The Economic Elite Vs. The People of the United States of America

Rajiv, I can't imagine how you find this stuff, paste it up, and reply so thoughtfully, so fast.

This is a book I have not read but certainly will now. It has been a pet peeve of mine that we are hunting down the people when the "system" is the problem. I consider this to be extremely dangerous right now. It wastes time, spins wheels, and prevents us from reaching any kind of rational consensus.

That was my point above. Some of these conspiracy folks are bright and motivated. It's just a waste is all.

Leave Timothy F. Geithner Alone

[Rajiv]

Re: The Economic Elite Vs. The People of the United States of America

You should also read what I have posted elsewhere

I also stated in another thread

It is the 10% that make the world unlivable for the 90% -- For a deeper understanding, read "Political Ponerology" Understanding that 10%, and recognizing them for what they are, and taking appropriate actions to safeguard yourself and others like you, could be the only way for this world to become a better place to live!

[Aetius Romulous]

Re: The Economic Elite Vs. The People of the United States of America

Fascinating.

So what we have here is an open ended cultural acceptance of a legal commercial system which by it's very nature, motivates and rewards those who can skillfully work the edges of the envelope best.

I have always felt that there are humans who respond to these incentives and opportunities as simple agents of an amoral commercial structure - innocent if you will, and just working the system provided. Like my friend Lloyd Blankfein.

Perhaps however, I have been wrong, and this "evil 6%" - being ideally suited for the task - are indeed disproportionately represented at or near the top where decisions are made and executed. This of course would extend beyond commerce, and into every human hierarchical field. And we are a hierarchical civilization.

Rajiv, this is simply great stuff and you have provided an important link for me in the chain of what the fuck.

[raja]

Mr

Their framework is applicable to the economic contraction –and potential social collapse- now underway whose root or distal cause –in my view- is a decline in cheap net energy flows resulting from peak oil.

Judging only from the snippet you posted, I'd say he must be asking the wrong questions if he's coming up with this, "(the) potential social collapse- now underway whose root or distal cause –in my view- is a decline in cheap net energy flows resulting from peak oil."

The "decline in cheap net energy flows resulting from peak oil" could have been handled a lot more gracefully and without social collapse if it weren't for the greed and arrogance of the Financial Elite. IMO, allowing the Financial Elite too much power and wealth is the "root or distal cause" of most of our problems today.

[Rajiv]

Re: Mr

Yes that is where the "Type IV" error comes in -- "intentionally solving the wrong problem" -- in other words you distract the public from appreciating the real problem -- Thus the bankers are enriched at the expense of the taxpayer. However, I do believe that "Peak Oil" and the fear of "Peak Oil" were behind the various shocks suffered by the system. This includes the Iraq war, and then the speculation in "oil futures" causing instability in the system.

Of course there is another factor behind the derivatives madness. Things and strategies that work on the small scale, often stop working when they are scaled upwards, or they can cause instabilities in the system (see resonance collapses of bridges) because human beings often act as sheep, and everybody piles on to what is considered to be a successful strategy. Of course human greed and fear play into all of this. All of this is complicated by the fact that often amoral or immoral people without a conscience are better able to work the system, and therefore rise to powerful positions.

[bart]

Re: The Economic Elite Vs. The People of the United States of America

Another take, and my preferred one, on the same general area:

A short essay on "Unconscious Conspiracies".

[c1ue]

Re: The Economic Elite Vs. The People of the United States of America

It has been a pet peeve of mine that we are hunting down the people when the "system" is the problem.

Under your argument, the death camp wardens should not have been prosecuted either.

The problem with your statement is that a systemic inducement is still not a justification for an individual decision to do others ill.

A Tyrannosaurus Rex has an excuse to eating anything that moves.

Intelligent, educated human beings do not.

The only problem I have with the smackdown on Geithner is if it is used as an excuse for not smacking down all the others who also deserve it.

[Alvaro Spain]

Re: The Economic Elite Vs. The People of the United States of America

You should also read what I have posted elsewhere

I also stated in another thread


It is the 10% that make the world unlivable for the 90% -- For a deeper understanding, read "Political Ponerology" Understanding that 10%, and recognizing them for what they are, and taking appropriate actions to safeguard yourself and others like you, could be the only way for this world to become a better place to live!

Your idea is a profound truth. I think, however, that this 10% of "bad" people is probably a reflection of the worst 10% of our inner selves. Without deeply cleaning this really awful 10% of ourselves, things won't change. I don't believe that this cleaning is generally possible or feasible. It is almost impossible to change yourself. And, because everybody should heal this worst 10% of themselves in order for the world to be different, it is clear that there is nothing to do, and that the world will unfortunately be always a difficult place to live. "Salvation" (in a broad sense) is possible, but not for the world at large. I have nothing against the masses, but "salvation", including living in a better world, is only possible on an individual scale. All IMO.

[Aetius Romulous]

Re: The Economic Elite Vs. The People of the United States of America

Under your argument, the death camp wardens should not have been prosecuted either.

The problem with your statement is that a systemic inducement is still not a justification for an individual decision to do others ill.

A Tyrannosaurus Rex has an excuse to eating anything that moves.

Intelligent, educated human beings do not.

The only problem I have with the smackdown on Geithner is if it is used as an excuse for not smacking down all the others who also deserve it.

"Death camp wardens" has nothing to do with it. Completely different issue and a red herring that simply derails the discussion.

The issue is an economic one and concerns systemic incentives that allow humans too much lattitude to be...humans. There is simply no reward in struggling against human nature. Our best hope is that we can accept human foibles and design social systems that remove as much as possible opportunity for negative social externalities.

My use of Geithner in the article was deliberate. It was meant to challenge the usual thinking by throwing up a lightning rod. There are tens of thousands of nameless, faceless Geithners all of whom would serve to illustrate the case, and any one of whom would simply fill his spot once he was hung, drawn, and quartered.

Nothing would change except that having hunted down and killed a single one, we would then again feel ourselves solved and vindicated...and drop the issue entirely, again.

I just don't see the value in that exercise while the clock is ticking on us all.

[c1ue]

Re: The Economic Elite Vs. The People of the United States of America

"Death camp wardens" has nothing to do with it. Completely different issue and a red herring that simply derails the discussion.

The issue is an economic one and concerns systemic incentives that allow humans too much lattitude to be...humans. There is simply no reward in struggling against human nature. Our best hope is that we can accept human foibles and design social systems that remove as much as possible opportunity for negative social externalities.

My use of Geithner in the article was deliberate. It was meant to challenge the usual thinking by throwing up a lightning rod. There are tens of thousands of nameless, faceless Geithners all of whom would serve to illustrate the case, and any one of whom would simply fill his spot once he was hung, drawn, and quartered.

Nothing would change except that having hunted down and killed a single one, we would then again feel ourselves solved and vindicated...and drop the issue entirely, again.

I just don't see the value in that exercise while the clock is ticking on us all.

I disagree.

The death camp wardens were equally financially and socially incentivized to do their legally certified work. I guarantee that it was legal in Nazi Germany to be a death camp warden - is there any doubt that this activity was financially and socially acceptable under the Nazi German system?

These wardens in some cases were not even directly responsible for killing; but is there a difference between guarding the camp where Jews are exterminated and shooting Jews in the head? Or if you're driving the train to Auschwitz or Treblinka - perhaps the first dozen trips is excusable, but anyone with any sense of awareness should be wondering why so many trains go in full but out empty at some point.

The 'improperly incentivized' banksters doing "God's work" are no different - the only difference is that the reprehensible activity in question is white collar crime vs. murder.

Yet I've noted before that actuarially speaking, there is no difference between stealing $10M and shooting one youthful person.

And equally for the banksters as it was for the death camp wardens, the correct moral path was easily discernable.

That they allowed themselves to be persuaded that the reprehensible activity is part of the 'system' - therefore that their own enrichment from the 'system' and equally the impoverishment of others - is acceptable as being a part of life is in no way a sufficient excuse.

Yet it is exactly this moral cowardice - deliberate or otherwise - which allows these crimes to occur. The systematic looting of entire nations much as the extermination of millions of an ethnic minority cannot occur by a keystroke - it is built like the Great Wall of China brick by brick upon the acceptance of many.

Fraudulent mortgage by crap ratings agency certification.

Churn and burn MBS creation by 'give them what they want' bond salesmen.

CDO writing insurance company by Greek debt hiding derivative sellers.

If you choose to close a blind eye to one societally acceptable yet morally reprehensible activity, then you should equally close a blind eye to the other.

While you may not be attempting to be an apologist for the banksters, your argument is very much in the identical vein.

[Aetius Romulous]

Re: The Economic Elite Vs. The People of the United States of America

I disagree.

The death camp wardens were equally financially and socially incentivized to do their legally certified work. I guarantee that it was legal in Nazi Germany to be a death camp warden - is there any doubt that this activity was financially and socially acceptable under the Nazi German system?

These wardens in some cases were not even directly responsible for killing; but is there a difference between guarding the camp where Jews are exterminated and shooting Jews in the head? Or if you're driving the train to Auschwitz or Treblinka - perhaps the first dozen trips is excusable, but anyone with any sense of awareness should be wondering why so many trains go in full but out empty at some point.

The 'improperly incentivized' banksters doing "God's work" are no different - the only difference is that the reprehensible activity in question is white collar crime vs. murder.

Yet I've noted before that actuarially speaking, there is no difference between stealing $10M and shooting one youthful person.

And equally for the banksters as it was for the death camp wardens, the correct moral path was easily discernable.

That they allowed themselves to be persuaded that the reprehensible activity is part of the 'system' - therefore that their own enrichment from the 'system' and equally the impoverishment of others - is acceptable as being a part of life is in no way a sufficient excuse.

Yet it is exactly this moral cowardice - deliberate or otherwise - which allows these crimes to occur. The systematic looting of entire nations much as the extermination of millions of an ethnic minority cannot occur by a keystroke - it is built like the Great Wall of China brick by brick upon the acceptance of many.

Fraudulent mortgage by crap ratings agency certification.

Churn and burn MBS creation by 'give them what they want' bond salesmen.

CDO writing insurance company by Greek debt hiding derivative sellers.

If you choose to close a blind eye to one societally acceptable yet morally reprehensible activity, then you should equally close a blind eye to the other.

While you may not be attempting to be an apologist for the banksters, your argument is very much in the identical vein.

I very much apologize for that opening salvo about death camps. It was not meant to be scolding and I should have worded that better. Sorry Clue.

I prefer to avoid that ugly meme if only because it does drag human emotion into it. If you don't mind, I'm going to pass on a direct response for that reason. Our points are still valid I believe.

Indeed, there are evil humans about. They should be punished and removed from the system where their actions are morally and ethically reprehensible. However, without removing the structure in which they thrive we really have accomplished little, No?

Far better to remove the opportunities which these and other humans use lawfully to their full, and our detrimental advantage. Design a system that limits to the fullest extent possible that incentiveized position.