Will this become a national issue?

[Thailandnotes]

Front and center in the Washington Post...

Human microchips seen by some in Virginia House as device of antichrist

By Fredrick Kunkle and Rosalind S. Helderman
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, February 10, 2010; B01

RICHMOND, FEB. 9 -- The House of Delegates is scheduled to vote Wednesday on a bill that would protect Virginians from attempts by employers or insurance companies to implant microchips in their bodies against their will.

It might also save humanity from the antichrist, some supporters think.

Del. Mark L. Cole (R-Fredericksburg), the bill's sponsor, said that privacy issues are the chief concern behind his attempt to criminalize the involuntary implantation of microchips. But he also said he shared concerns that the devices could someday be used as the "mark of the beast" described in the Book of Revelation.

"My understanding -- I'm not a theologian -- but there's a prophecy in the Bible that says you'll have to receive a mark, or you can neither buy nor sell things in end times," Cole said. "Some people think these computer chips might be that mark."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...903796_pf.html

[we_are_toast]

Re: Will this become a national issue?

This is a really big deal amongst the rapture crowd. I know a guy who is constantly warning me about all the secret chips in TV's, Cell phones, Computers... He sees conspiracies everywhere and views them as a sign of the end times. He has taken his dogs to the shelter at least once in anticipation of the rapture in a few days. I find it very sad that people would choose to live in such constant fear. For a few hours every week or so I try to talk to him about gardening or weather or whatever, just to distract him from the concern that the end may come today.

Actually, my brother and I were just talking yesterday about starting a business together. For an annual fee we would come and get your pets after the rapture and raise them in a very luxurious open area. We were thinking of calling it, Rapture Park.

[Raz]

Re: Will this become a national issue?

This is a really big deal amongst the rapture crowd. I know a guy who is constantly warning me about all the secret chips in TV's, Cell phones, Computers... He sees conspiracies everywhere and views them as a sign of the end times. He has taken his dogs to the shelter at least once in anticipation of the rapture in a few days. I find it very sad that people would choose to live in such constant fear. For a few hours every week or so I try to talk to him about gardening or weather or whatever, just to distract him from the concern that the end may come today.

Actually, my brother and I were just talking yesterday about starting a business together. For an annual fee we would come and get your pets after the rapture and raise them in a very luxurious open area. We were thinking of calling it, Rapture Park.

It's sad indeed. And somewhat like medicine, a little theological knowledge is a dangerous thing.

Until the mid-1700s no one ever mentioned or published such a theory. The Orthodox consider it a heresy among enthusiasts of Millenialism and it was first put forth as a formal doctrine in about 1830 by John Nelson Darby of the Plymouth Brethren.

It is based entirely upon one verse written by St. Paul in his Second Letter to the church in Thessalonika, cannot be reconciled with the words of Christ in any of the Synoptic Gospels, was never mentioned by the Fathers of the Orthodox and catholic Church for more than 1700 years, and is utterly foolish.

[SBell]

Re: Will this become a national issue?

Actually, my brother and I were just talking yesterday about starting a business together. For an annual fee we would come and get your pets after the rapture and raise them in a very luxurious open area. We were thinking of calling it, Rapture Park.

Humorous yet brilliant idea

[cindykimlisa]

Re: Will this become a national issue?

Front and center in the Washington Post...

Human microchips seen by some in Virginia House as device of antichrist

By Fredrick Kunkle and Rosalind S. Helderman
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, February 10, 2010; B01

RICHMOND, FEB. 9 -- The House of Delegates is scheduled to vote Wednesday on a bill that would protect Virginians from attempts by employers or insurance companies to implant microchips in their bodies against their will.

It might also save humanity from the antichrist, some supporters think.

Del. Mark L. Cole (R-Fredericksburg), the bill's sponsor, said that privacy issues are the chief concern behind his attempt to criminalize the involuntary implantation of microchips. But he also said he shared concerns that the devices could someday be used as the "mark of the beast" described in the Book of Revelation.

"My understanding -- I'm not a theologian -- but there's a prophecy in the Bible that says you'll have to receive a mark, or you can neither buy nor sell things in end times," Cole said. "Some people think these computer chips might be that mark."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...903796_pf.html

Revelation is an apocalyptic book filled with metaphors thought by some to describe activity with the Roman Empire and the Church. I am a Theologian and it is easy to discern how any person who reads or understands the Bible might conclude that these chips are the mark of the beast: for our time it is very plausable. At the time of the Bible no one could have imagined this. Generally speaking I would have perceived the mark to be a tattoo with the number 666 included - my gut only - that would have worked then and now.

Maybe Tom Hanks knows.


Think about this. I recently completed a Master's degree in Divinity. Recently I put my entire seminary experience and ten years of Church work on a one Gig chip. Kind of amazing how much stuff you can get on a small chip.

Cindy

[cindykimlisa]

Re: Will this become a national issue?

It's sad indeed. And somewhat like medicine, a little theological knowledge is a dangerous thing.

Until the mid-1700s no one ever mentioned or published such a theory. The Orthodox consider it a heresy among enthusiasts of Millenialism and it was first put forth as a formal doctrine in about 1830 by John Nelson Darby of the Plymouth Brethren.

It is based entirely upon one verse written by St. Paul in his Second Letter to the church in Thessalonika, cannot be reconciled with the words of Christ in any of the Synoptic Gospels, was never mentioned by the Fathers of the Orthodox and catholic Church for more than 1700 years, and is utterly foolish.

Rapture is a small part of the big picture in Christian Theology: Eschatology

From Wik

"While Eschatology is a relatively recent development as a formal division of Christian theology, the future hope which it represents has been an important aspect of Christian faith from the very beginning. In his epistle to the Romans, Paul writes:

The creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the children of God, for the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now, and not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as children, the redemption of our bodies, for in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope, for who hopes for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience. —Romans 8:19–25

Christian eschatology is concerned with death and the afterlife, heaven and hell, the return of Jesus, the resurrection of the dead, the Rapture, the Tribulation, the Millennium, the end of the world, the Last Judgment, the new heaven and earth, and the ultimate consummation of all of God's purposes. Eschatological passages are found in many places in the Bible, both in the Old Testament (Hebrew scriptures) and the New Testament. The prophets Isaiah and Daniel, the gospel of Matthew (chapter 24), and Revelation are just a few examples. There are also many extrabiblical examples of eschatological prophecy, as well as church traditions which have been added to the scriptures over the years. Most Christians believe that death and suffering will continue to exist until the second coming of Christ. Others, however, believe that suffering will gradually be eliminated prior to his coming, and that the elimination of injustice is our part in preparing for that event. Needless to say, there are various controversies concerning the order and significance of eschatological events, some of which are discussed below (see Major Theological Positions on the Millennium and Associated Events).
Some Christians, notably followers of Eastern Orthodoxy, but also members of other sects, regard popular discussion of this topic as irrelevant or even dangerous. Theologians from a number of traditions point out that Revelation was included late in the Biblical canon because of lingering questions regarding its usefulness (see also Antilegomena), and many early teachers thought the Christian faith should occupy itself with what is most transparently understood concerning salvation. Nevertheless, a great number of Christians consider the effort to understand Revelation and other eschatological prophecies as being at the heart of Christian faith, being, as it is, a quest for a better understanding of the basis for the Christian hope for the future.


Jesus Christ Himself had a lot to say about this whole issue.

The Gospel of Matthew 24

Jesus Predicts the Destruction of the Temple

¹ Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple. ² And Jesus said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”
The Signs of the Times and the End of the Age


³ Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”
⁴ And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. ⁵ For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. ⁶ And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all^[a]these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. ⁷ For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences,^[b] and earthquakes in various places. ⁸ All these are the beginning of sorrows.
⁹ “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. ¹⁰ And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. ¹¹ Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. ¹² And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. ¹³ But he who endures to the end shall be saved. ¹⁴ And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

The Great Tribulation


¹⁵ “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’^{[c] 16} “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. ¹⁷ Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. ¹⁸ And let himspoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. ¹⁹ But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! ²⁰ And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. ²¹ For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. ²² And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.
²³ “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. ²⁴ For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. ²⁵ See, I have told you beforehand.
²⁶ “Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. ²⁷ For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. ²⁸ For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

The Coming of the Son of Man


²⁹ “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. ³⁰ Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. ³¹ And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
The Parable of the Fig Tree


³² “Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. ³³ So you also, when you see all these things, know that it^[d] is near—at the doors! ³⁴ Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. ³⁵ Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.
No One Knows the Day or Hour


³⁶ “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven,^[e] but My Father only. ³⁷ But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. ³⁸ For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, ³⁹ and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. ⁴⁰ Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. ⁴¹ Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. ⁴² Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour^[f] your Lord is coming. ⁴³ But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. ⁴⁴ Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

The Faithful Servant and the Evil Servant


⁴⁵ “Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season? ⁴⁶ Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing. ⁴⁷ Assuredly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods. ⁴⁸ But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ ^{[g] 49} and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, ⁵⁰ the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of, ⁵¹ and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX XXXX

According to Cindy

For me I am with Jesus on this: Nobody knows! And yet those of us who have been called by God to minister the gospel of Christ are charged with helping the church to interpret the "signs of the times." I see a lot of the things above ongoing now but I also know they were ongoing in Israel in 70 when the Romans invaded and destroyed the Temple.

It is not esay to figure all this stuff out. So beware when someone says they have it all figured out. Generally for me that is not a good sign.

Cindy

[cjppjc]

Re: Will this become a national issue?

Religion is studied too much. Religion is meant to be lived. With charity and love for all. But who is able to live like that? Easier to philosophize and study. Of the three parts, words, rituals, ceremony. The words get all the attention.

I am not trying to put down religion. It's just that without real change in the individual his or her spiritual growth is more fantasy than reality. Can he turn the other cheek?

[jmaxey]

Re: Will this become a national issue?

Theological arguments aside, why would anyone or any institution wish to implant microchips in someone else without their consent anyway? Would (insert despot of choice, historic, current, U.S. or foreign) availed themselves of such technology if they could?

[Serge_Tomiko]

Re: Will this become a national issue?

Theological arguments aside, why would anyone or any institution wish to implant microchips in someone else without their consent anyway? Would (insert despot of choice, historic, current, U.S. or foreign) availed themselves of such technology if they could?

Money.

If I offer you to reduce your health insurance deductible by $1,000, would you do it? I bet a lot of people would.

[ASH]

Re: Will this become a national issue?

Money.

If I offer you to reduce your health insurance deductible by $1,000, would you do it? I bet a lot of people would.

Doesn't that qualify as consent?

[ASH]

Re: Will this become a national issue?

Theological arguments aside, why would anyone or any institution wish to implant microchips in someone else without their consent anyway? Would (insert despot of choice, historic, current, U.S. or foreign) availed themselves of such technology if they could?

In my opinion, the whole "without consent" part of this is a signal that the honorable Mr. Cole is engaging in classic political grandstanding. Sponsor a bill to outlaw something that sounds horrific or offensive -- even if no one is actually engaged in said offensive activity -- and you simultaneously stir up fear about the possibility of such activity as well as garner political support because you are doing something about it.

And yes -- people have been "marked" with brands or arm patches before, against their will, by despots. The fact that we're talking about a microchip just makes it sound more plausible to the gullible voter. If Mr. Cole had sponsored a bill to outlaw employers or insurance companies from branding their employees against their will, he probably wouldn't get much traction, because he'd be labeled a grandstanding kook. Introduce 'high tech' and suddenly it sounds like something that could be on the horizon. However, the thing that makes this silly is the idea that somebody would try to make implantation of microchips involuntary. It's not that there wouldn't be a utilitarian reason to do so (our family cat is chipped for ID purposes), but rather that implying this would be done without the individual's consent is pure political opportunism.

[WildspitzE]

Re: Will this become a national issue?

Theological arguments aside, why would anyone or any institution wish to implant microchips in someone else without their consent anyway? Would (insert despot of choice, historic, current, U.S. or foreign) availed themselves of such technology if they could?

Here's some of the precedent in Mexico (and IIRC in FL), security & medicine.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5439055/

[charliebrown]

Re: Will this become a national issue?

I assume this person is referring to the "Mark of the beast" that is mentioned in revelation which is credited to the apostle John.

I used to be a theologian, although not a good one. I dropped out of school for family reasons, before studying eschatology (The logic of last things). However I know that the book of revelation can be interepreted in several broad ways. My personal leaning is that it was meant for an audience of John. So it probably refers to the Roman destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

Anyhow as others have mentioned here,
My core belief is the words of Jesus From Matt 22.
³⁴Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. ³⁵One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question:
³⁶"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" ³⁷Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' ³⁸This is the first and greatest commandment. ³⁹And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' ⁴⁰All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

Do this and EVERYTHING else falls into place. BTW, I fail this commandment on a daily basis.

Getting back to the thread, Is this chip for identification? I seems like a huge invasion of privacy to have some ID implanted in you. Unless planes are being blown out of the sky on a weekly bases, I don't want to be subjected to this.

And even so how is this identifier any different than finger prints?
Chips can be "faked" too. If someone can read the chip of an innocent, I'm sure someone can make a duplicate and have it implanted in a someone else. Some other bio-metirc identifier is actually more secure.

[charliebrown]

Re: Will this become a national issue?

Congratulations, I was in seminary too for a while.
I regretfully had to leave for family medical issues.
However I now know this is my calling. It is my
purpose on this rock.

I hope your calling bears much fruit.

[ggirod]

Re: Will this become a national issue?

I have learned a bit more than I might want to know about the conspiracy theories that abound in this time of uncertainty and change. Writing a novel based on the theories is a great way to get inside the minds of believers ...

but rather that implying this would be done without the individual's consent is pure political opportunism.

Rationally, and right now, I have to agree. However, how many people would consent to it? Adoption of microchipping except for livestock and pets is unlikely. In fact, my dog is tattooed with his AKC registry number so if he gets lost they can find me or the breeder ... Tattooing already happened to people once. But, even though chipping is new and sterile and "invisible" and high tech, people are unlikely to go along.

In its "terms and conditions", the Book of Revelation has a warning to those who would add to it or change it, that the long term prospects for their soul might be bleak.

[18] For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
[19] And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

So, with full intent to avoid that fate, I would simply suggest (for your consideration) that the whole Mark of the Beast stuff is a metaphor for enforced participation in a secular economy. In other words you could not trade with anonymity. Your freedom to trade could be turned on and off at will. If the government wanted to find you, it would be much easier than "Amber Alerts". By requiring the mark your actions would be traceable and traced. It is the ultimate basis of a cashless society.

There are really only four forms I can imagine for a cashless society --

1. a gift economy in which everybody voluntarily gives and gets commensurate with their skills, blessings, etc and no money needs to change hands
2. a barter economy in which people trade commodities for each other
3. a society in which the goods are distributed without need for payment "to each according to their needs and from each according to their means", or something like that...
4. an economy in which physical cash is eliminated but transactions of virtual cash are tracked, maintained, and accounted within a financial system.

If anyone can come up with additional ones, please add them...

I think it is the fourth option that is so feared by the writers of the scripture. The other three are way too decent and close to actual 100 CE Christianity to be feared. The fourth, however, has to be a pretty scary prospect to those who already live under the thumb of the Romans.

So, in my paranoia-addled mind, it is the fourth option which I think is feared. Sadly, it is the fourth option that might be implemented sooner than we might want. And, it is the fourth option that would ultimately be practically involuntary.

If you consider the aftermath of launching a cashless society, those who thumb their noses at the system and grow their own crops and livestock / live in an agrarian subsistence lifestyle might be the envy of the enslaved because they in fact would be the only free peoples on the planet. That would be unacceptable and, at risk of losing control of the masses, those who objected to the system would have to be dealt with. The presence of a black market subverts the economy and a functioning black market very effectively subverts an oppressive system.

The financial oligarchs just have to look at the modern society to see major risks coming. People are walking away from mortgages, leaving the idiots who bought the paper to hold the bag. Others whose unemployment and circumstances leave them bloodless as a turnip cannot pay their debts; leaving yet more idiots out in the cold with their worthless paper. The government can only bail out the top of the pyramid so the whole economic model is at risk. The masses, who have nothing to lose will be difficult to control -- if ya ain't got nuthin' ya got nuthin' ta lose.

Idiots the losers may be, but powerless they are not. Now that the corporations own the government with the blessing of the Supreme Court, it will not be very long before oppressive laws will be passed. How long is it until the teeming masses yearning to be exploited, will need control?

So, to answer the quote above, it may in fact be that introducing and even passing the law is political opportunism. But, it is opportunism not for the reason cited, but because when the time comes the law they pass today will be as meaningless as anything else including the constitution that people put up to resist the oligarchs.

Interesting thought, no? No ponder this ...

The really neat idea is that only the margins of society claim to believe this could happen. They are obviously wingnuts, or whatever you wish to call them. That perception makes a perfect smokescreen for the powers that be to act unnoticed. Mass rejection of even the possibility makes it much easier for the oligarchs to make it so when they decide to. Quickly, quietly, and forcefully.

Oh, that's just paranoia ... yup, just paranoia ... sleep well tonight

Welcome to the wonderful world of paranoia where the boundary between imagination and reality fades and disappears. It is an almost limitless realm in which misapplied logic can extend the possiblities almost to the infinite. Truly believing in it is not productive, even harmful, but considering the possibilities may be useful. How many times have you engaged in a preventive action because it occurred to you that some bad outcome was possible? Maybe you went back in the house and found that you did, in fact, leave the iron on. An hour after you left for your vacation that same thought would feel an awful lot like paranoia. So, while I cannot accept that things like the above metaphor will happen and that the future is immutable, I do believe that if we do not watch out, the future may well not be to our liking.