Growth is not possible

[Aetius Romulous]

Re: Growth is not possible

I suppose those motivations are defined by their own culture, politics, and values. But I think we can say with certainty that Indians, Malaysians, and Brazilians don't adhere to American political dogmas as Americans do.

When discussing issues of a global nature, it is important to keep these distinctions in mind, and not pigeon hole everything into a left/right agenda that does not exist anywhere but in America.

[GRG55]

Re: Growth is not possible

I suppose those motivations are defined by their own culture, politics, and values...

Doesn't this apply equally to the USA?

But I think we can say with certainty that Indians, Malaysians, and Brazilians don't adhere to American political dogmas as Americans do..

And we can probably say with equal certainty that Americans don't adhere to Indian, Malaysian or Brazilian political dogmas... ;)

When discussing issues of a global nature, it is important to keep these distinctions in mind, and not pigeon hole everything into a left/right agenda that does not exist anywhere but in America.

Really? The rest of the world is a pretty big place. It's not that difficult to find examples of parties from across the entire spectrum of political ideology, with the "left-most" making the "left" of American politics look positively capitalist. I would equally argue that the politics in a place like Nigeria makes the US Republicans look like a bunch of socialists...

[Aetius Romulous]

Re: Growth is not possible

I guess that is the point - that there is a wide diversity of opinion on things, and in order to form any kind of mutual understanding we have to be ready to accept those differences as they are - which applies equally to all.

Impossibleism is not a national psychosis by any means, and the solution will thus not be a national one, but universal. Which implies international dialogue, free from national dogma. Which is tough.

[KGW]

Re: Growth is not possible

Ya, everytime I get on the freeways in L.A. County, I praise the vision of progress that lets me creep along with a billion other people. . .:rolleyes:

this is more Lefty nonsense. Defining growth is extremely complex. Of course, we can't have growth based on cheap fossil fuel any more but this is a temporary hiccup in the long history of man's ingenuity.

The economy will continue to contract but eventually it will grow again based around a new model. The timescales for this are large - always have been.

Any time the economy falters the Lefties come out with their limits to growth nonsense. It's short sighted and unimaginative (and dull).

[GRG55]

Re: Growth is not possible

Ya, everytime I get on the freeways in L.A. County, I praise the vision of progress that lets me creep along with a billion other people. . .:rolleyes:

One of our iTulip colleagues has a solution for that...I think it goes something along the lines of "ship all the illegals to D.C. and it will solve all of California's problems".

You'll be able to scream along the I-10 to Santa Monica in no time...

[KGW]

Re: Growth is not possible

I forgot to mention that this vision of progress is "non-negotiable."

One of our iTulip colleagues has a solution for that...I think it goes something along the lines of "ship all the illegals to D.C. and it will solve all of California's problems".

You'll be able to scream along the I-10 to Santa Monica in no time...

[sunskyfan]

Re: Growth is not possible

WE constantly make the mistake of confusing the virtual with the real. There is progress in networking the world. You can't look a brain and just observer that it is just a bunch of fat without missing the power of the brain. What makes a brain more than a bunch of fat is the complex protocols and software that animate it. I think our biggest problem is that we don't know how to build an economy that effectively measures both the value of an idea and the value of a bushel of wheat. Perhaps it is time to realize that it is impossible. Wall Street and Main Street are two very different things but in the last 30 years we have attempted to connect them directly destroying both our ability to measure the value of an idea and a bushel of wheat. This has been very bad. The first realization is that you can't eat an idea but you can eat the brain the idea exists in. The second realization is that without the bushel of wheat there are no brains to eat and that bushels of wheat are pretty important.

Ideas can grow exponentially. Wheat can't. Economies based on ideas can grow exponentially. Economies based on wheat can't. A man who has made his fortune in a world of ideas doesn't understand the difference. The problem is that the men we have chosen to run our economy come exclusively from a world of ideas.

[Raz]

Re: Growth is not possible

WE constantly make the mistake of confusing the virtual with the real. ...

Ideas can grow exponentially. Wheat can't. Economies based on ideas can grow exponentially. Economies based on wheat can't. A man who has made his fortune in a world of ideas doesn't understand the difference. The problem is that the men we have chosen to run our economy come exclusively from a world of ideas.

Yes indeed.

And I say "let them eat virtual cake".:mad:

[gnk]

Re: Growth is not possible

this is more Lefty nonsense. Defining growth is extremely complex. Of course, we can't have growth based on cheap fossil fuel any more but this is a temporary hiccup in the long history of man's ingenuity.

Ahh.. hiccup.. I see.

Can you spot the hiccup on the chart below?

[blazespinnaker]

Re: Growth is not possible

Robots, vat grown meat, cheap solar energy, nanotech to develop light-mass super strong building materials, etc etc.

The problem isn't growth or even innovation, the problem is the danger of innovation itself.

Eg, Terminator .. Experiments creating black holes, nanotech going wild, artificially created viruses. These are the real fundamental problems.

[ASH]

Re: Growth is not possible

It's also basic math.

I see this argument a lot, but it isn't framed correctly as a basic math problem. Exponential growth doesn't hit infinity except in the limit of infinite time. For that matter, linear growth would also hit infinity in infinite time. I think people look at exponential curves plotted on linear scales and believe they see a vertical asymptote, but it isn't there.

From a mathematical standpoint, the exponential nature of growth compared to finite resources is a red herring. Any growth at constant rate will eventually collide with a finite limit. Rather, the problem with exponential growth is the suddenness with which the limit is reached, and the fact that there IS a finite limit to material resources.

But we clearly agree that the current thing is unsustainable...

Agreed.

[ASH]

Re: Growth is not possible

Exponential growth doesn't hit infinity except in the limit of infinite time. For that matter, linear growth would also hit infinity in infinite time.

Another reason why this isn't "basic math":

Just as resources are finite, so is the period of time over which they might be consumed. It is entirely possible to have exponential growth at such a slow rate that finite resources are not consumed before the sun goes out (for instance). This doesn't correspond to our actual growth rate, but the point is that if this was only a math problem, exponential growth itself isn't the problem.

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: Growth is not possible

ANY monotonic growth will eventually collide with a finite limit

Hmm...

f(x) = 1 - 1/x

is monotonically increasing for x > 0, but will never collide with 1 .

[ASH]

Re: Growth is not possible

Hmm...

f(x) = 1 - 1/x

is monotonically increasing for x > 0, but will never collide with 1 .

Argh! Damn you mathematically-literate cow!

[Aetius Romulous]

Re: Growth is not possible

I bow to your obvious command of the subject. Ya got me beat LOL. However once explained so well, it's all obvious, no?

Regardless, the point remains that, math or no math, most folks "get" it intuitively; stuff runs out.