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  • Re: Yes Virginia...It's a Bubble...

    Originally posted by Polish_Silver View Post
    What did Japan waste money on ?
    "Bridges to nowhere" is a metaphor for Japan's post-bubble Big Project infrastructure spending program that was supposed to prevent the economy from going into deflation.

    Here's an excerpt from a 2009 NYT article (which is right about the time China was gearing up to take its already magnificent and out of control infrastructure spending into hyper-overdrive in the aftermath of the global financial crisis). And as you will see from the second article posted below that thinking is still largely intact. Despite the very visible and quantifiable failures in Japan and now China, I am fascinated by the comparisons that suggest that nations that did not follow this prescription are somehow deficient or missing out on these oh-so-easy-prescriptions for the nirvana hat-trick of job creation, higher sustainable GDP growth and, of course, the ultimate prize of a magical cure-all 2% inflation rate.

    Necessary and appropriate public infrastructure, and the maintenance and periodic rejuvenation/upgrading/replacement of same has always been a key component to economic competitiveness. But the idea that massive and invariably indiscriminate infrastructure spending, aided by gobs of cheap Central Bank induced money from helicopters is somehow going to pave the way for sound, sustainable, competitive economic growth? Count me a sceptic.
    HAMADA, Japan — The Hamada Marine Bridge soars majestically over this small fishing harbor, so much larger than the squid boats anchored below that it seems out of place.

    And it is not just the bridge. Two decades of generous public works spending have showered this city of 61,000 mostly graying residents with a highway, a two-lane bypass, a university, a prison, a children’s art museum, the Sun Village Hamada sports center, a bright red welcome center, a ski resort and an aquarium featuring three ring-blowing Beluga whales.


    Nor is this remote port in western Japan unusual. Japan’s rural areas have been paved over and filled in with roads, dams and other big infrastructure projects, the legacy of trillions of dollars spent to lift the economy from a severe downturn caused by the bursting of a real estate bubble in the late 1980s. During those nearly two decades, Japan accumulated the largest public debt in the developed world — totaling 180 percent of its $5.5 trillion economy — while failing to generate a convincing recovery...

    ...Moreover, it matters what gets built: Japan spent too much on increasingly wasteful roads and bridges, and not enough in areas like education and social services, which studies show deliver more bang for the buck than infrastructure spending.


    “It is not enough just to hire workers to dig holes and then fill them in again,” said Toshihiro Ihori, an economics professor at the University of Tokyo. “One lesson from Japan is that public works get the best results when they create something useful for the future.”


    In total, Japan spent $6.3 trillion on construction-related public investment between 1991 and September of last year, according to the Cabinet Office. The spending peaked in 1995 and remained high until the early 2000s, when it was cut amid growing concerns about ballooning budget deficits. More recently, the governing Liberal Democratic Party has increased spending again to revive the economy and the party’s own flagging popularity.


    In the end, say economists, it was not public works but an expensive cleanup of the debt-ridden banking system, combined with growing exports to China and the United States, that brought a close to Japan’s Lost Decade. This has led many to conclude that spending did little more than sink Japan deeply into debt, leaving an enormous tax burden for future generations...




    September 18, 2013 — 3:25 AM MDT

    Broken wood pieces dangle and sway like autumn leaves from the window frames of vacant homes in Inariyato, part of Yokosuka in the greater-Tokyo urban area, where taped-over mailbox slots tell a story of abandonment.

    More than 50 houses and apartments, almost 20 percent of the quaint residential neighborhood of narrow streets and stairway paths leading into green hills, are empty here, an hour’s train ride south of Tokyo and 1,000 yards (900 meters) from the Yokosuka naval base, home of the U.S. Seventh Fleet. That hasn’t stopped developers from building at least eight new apartment blocks in the same city in the past two years.


    Prime Minister Shinzo Abe’s plan to boost the economy in part by reviving the housing market and encouraging new home construction is in conflict with Japan’s demographics. Rural, suburban and less-desirable urban areas are becoming littered with empty homes as younger people moving to cities combines with one of the world’s fastest-aging populations. At the same time, tax breaks on mortgages favoring new-home purchases, recently extended to 2017 and increased to 50 million yen from 30 million yen, are spurring demand for new properties.


    “Even when the number of vacant homes is on the rise, more and more new homes are being built,” said Hidetaka Yoneyama, a senior researcher at Fujitsu Research Institute in Tokyo who has written at least five books on Japan’s housing market. “That’s absurd.”

    Home vacancy in Japan, estimated at about 18 percent of housing nationwide, may reach 24 percent by 2028, he said...
    Last edited by GRG55; June 19, 2016, 10:57 PM.

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    • Re: Yes Virginia...It's a Bubble...

      Originally posted by jk View Post
      i don't think a big infrastructure build in the u.s. would necessarily or even likely be the kind of misallocation done in japan and china. i don't see the u.s. building many bridges to nowhere or ghost cities. u.s. infrastructure sucks, and there's a lot of productivity enhancing work to be done before we have people digging holes so that others can fill them in.
      Yesterday during our 122 degree heatwave, 861 homes lost power around 5:30 PM, only about a mile from where I live. Half of them were still without power at 10 PM. The electric company has all year to prepare for high demands on the power grid, but this happens every summer.

      Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

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      • Re: Yes Virginia...It's a Bubble...

        Originally posted by shiny! View Post
        Yesterday during our 122 degree heatwave, 861 homes lost power around 5:30 PM, only about a mile from where I live. Half of them were still without power at 10 PM. The electric company has all year to prepare for high demands on the power grid, but this happens every summer.
        I don't know about down there, but up here where I live the power companies have their hands tied. Coal is being legislatively phased out (at least two major coal fired power plants in Alberta have been shut down in past year) and trying to get approvals for any new power projects is a lengthy, costly process - doesn't matter if it is a nat gas fired turbine, new transmission lines, wind farms, run-of-river hydro or anything else. We Canadians have decided that everyone who has no financial skin in the game is a "stakeholder" and therefore must be consulted before anything can be started. In addition, the project proponent company must pay all the costs for the public hearings, including the costs of the interveners, so there is every incentive to tie up every project for as long as possible as it supports the "protest industry" that has sprung up here. And I continue to marvel at the amount of recently discovered First Nations sacred territory - could never have conceived that in a nation as vast as Canada, but then what do I know.

        Solar on the rooftop (with a good broom to clean off the snow) and burning wood to heat your house in winter are starting to look like the default options up here.
        Last edited by GRG55; June 20, 2016, 12:53 PM.

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        • Utility frustration

          Originally posted by shiny! View Post
          Yesterday during our 122 degree heatwave, 861 homes lost power around 5:30 PM, only about a mile from where I live. Half of them were still without power at 10 PM. The electric company has all year to prepare for high demands on the power grid, but this happens every summer.

          Is it a grid distribution problem, or a power production problem?

          The California brown outs of the 1990's were primarily production problems, exacerbated by some illegal deals by Enron and the like. The local utility
          had been trying to build a power plant for years before the shortages began, but the Nimbyism was downright suffocating---even for a natural gas generator.

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          • Re: Yes Virginia...It's a Bubble...

            Originally posted by shiny! View Post
            Yesterday during our 122 degree heatwave, 861 homes lost power around 5:30 PM, only about a mile from where I live. Half of them were still without power at 10 PM. The electric company has all year to prepare for high demands on the power grid, but this happens every summer.
            APS and SRP have similar problems in Phoenix. Because the majority of the year is quite temperate and the summers are searingly hot, they can fight the regulators and the public to keep extra equipment on hand to handle these extraordinary heating days or they can keep energy prices low, (12 cents a kWh average), and deal with a few unlucky people. Unless the trend changes soon, this is only going to get worse over the next 20-30 years.

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            • Re: Yes Virginia...It's a Bubble...

              Originally posted by santafe2 View Post
              APS and SRP have similar problems in Phoenix. Because the majority of the year is quite temperate and the summers are searingly hot, they can fight the regulators and the public to keep extra equipment on hand to handle these extraordinary heating days or they can keep energy prices low, (12 cents a kWh average), and deal with a few unlucky people. Unless the trend changes soon, this is only going to get worse over the next 20-30 years.
              i suppose the national grid isn't good enough for the southwest's summer cooling demand to be offset by generation capacity in regions with the opposite seasonality. why can't that work?

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              • Re: Yes Virginia...It's a Bubble...

                Originally posted by jk View Post
                i suppose the national grid isn't good enough for the southwest's summer cooling demand to be offset by generation capacity in regions with the opposite seasonality. why can't that work?
                There are actually 3 grids in the US. AZ is part of the western grid and is a net supplier of electricity to its neighboring states, like us in New Mexico. They have the largest nuclear plant in the US, are 2nd only to California in solar energy. They're cutting back on the use of coal and ramping up natural gas but all of this has to be done while maintaining their RPS, (renewable energy standards), and within their budget. Micro grids and battery back up will resolve this issue for the rich but the average Arizonian would be well served to focus on extreme insulation, (R-40+ walls and 70+ ceiling), to resolve the majority of their cooling problems during the summer.

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                • Re: Yes Virginia...It's a Bubble...

                  Originally posted by santafe2 View Post
                  There are actually 3 grids in the US. AZ is part of the western grid and is a net supplier of electricity to its neighboring states, like us in New Mexico. They have the largest nuclear plant in the US, are 2nd only to California in solar energy. They're cutting back on the use of coal and ramping up natural gas but all of this has to be done while maintaining their RPS, (renewable energy standards), and within their budget. Micro grids and battery back up will resolve this issue for the rich but the average Arizonian would be well served to focus on extreme insulation, (R-40+ walls and 70+ ceiling), to resolve the majority of their cooling problems during the summer.
                  i've picked up the conventional wisdom that we need to modernize and smarten the u.s. grid, but in fact i know nothing about what that entails. could you [briefly] enlighten me? thanks.

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                  • Re: Yes Virginia...It's a Bubble...

                    Originally posted by jk View Post
                    i suppose the national grid isn't good enough for the southwest's summer cooling demand to be offset by generation capacity in regions with the opposite seasonality. why can't that work?
                    The total US grid looses about 6.5% of our power in transmission losses.
                    If the average distance between the generator and the load increases, the losses go up proportionally.
                    The resistance of a wire is ohms per foot. More feet means more ohms.

                    For the US all regions have the highest electrical demand in the summer when the air conditioners are running, even in Vermont and Alaska.

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                    • Re: Yes Virginia...It's a Bubble...

                      you'd think solar would be a perfect solution if developed in sufficient volume.

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                      • Re: Yes Virginia...It's a Bubble...

                        Originally posted by thriftyandboringinohio View Post
                        For the US all regions have the highest electrical demand in the summer when the air conditioners are running, even in Vermont and Alaska.
                        To add on to this idea: Utility systems are designed for peak demand. That peak demand will come during the afternoon and early evening, during the work week and during summer months. These systems are designed for the 5-10% of the time peak production is required. What we're talking about here is the peak 1% and that might raise rates by an additional 50%.

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                        • Re: Yes Virginia...It's a Bubble...

                          Originally posted by jk View Post
                          you'd think solar would be a perfect solution if developed in sufficient volume.
                          Well, sort of perfect. Without batteries, solar is not smart. It produces about the same amount of energy every day whether you need it or not, (less in winter of course). When there is too much energy being created, it has no value. In fact, it can have a negative value. Smart grids that talk to smart battery systems will resolve this over time and some utility companies are coming to the realization that they are no longer in the energy production business and are in the energy delivery business so they're cooperating in this effort, (most are not).

                          We're not a society run in a top down fashion so it will take longer than it should for our energy production and delivery model to change but it will change.

                          Comment


                          • Re: Yes Virginia...It's a Bubble...

                            Originally posted by GRG55 View Post
                            We have the usual Chinese stuff in Wal-Mart and a lot of the mass market electronics and small appliances are also Chinese or Korean made (my D-Link router, my laser printer, my iPad, my iPhone, my electric tooth brush, my 3 Samsung computer screens, the VIRZoom bike, and so forth) But if you look closely across the spectrum a very large part of what we consume is made in the USA and Mexico (NAFTA zone). The highest end products if not made in Canada come almost exclusively from the USA or western Europe including all 3 vehicles in our family, my airplane and the new avionics in it, most of the cosmetics and pharma products and most everything that went into making the GRG55 bunker.

                            That maybe the case in Canada but in Asia, most of the high end products are made in Japan or Korea (cosmetics and appliances). Of course Japan doesn't manufacture airplanes.

                            The US and Western Europe on the whole doesn't compete with China directly but compete against Japan, Korea and to a lesser extent Taiwan and Singapore.

                            Especially so for Korea which is gaining a lot of market share with great quality consumer products (often the best quality you can find in the whole world) but at prices lower than Japanese and Western Europe made stuff.

                            The US doesn't need to worry because of software and Internet dominance and huge domestic market, but Western Europe may face a serious problem in the next 10 years. The failure of the EU due to political meddling in Greece, and illegal sabotage in Ukraine and Russia will prove to be very costly to France and Germany.
                            Last edited by touchring; July 02, 2016, 12:41 AM.

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                            • Re: Yes Virginia...It's a Bubble...

                              Originally posted by touchring View Post
                              That maybe the case in Canada but in Asia, most of the high end products are made in Japan or Korea (cosmetics and appliances). Of course Japan doesn't manufacture airplanes.

                              The US and Western Europe on the whole doesn't compete with China directly but compete against Japan, Korea and to a lesser extent Taiwan and Singapore.

                              Especially so for Korea which is gaining a lot of market share with great quality consumer products (often the best quality you can find in the whole world) but at prices lower than Japanese and Western Europe made stuff.

                              The US doesn't need to worry because of software and Internet dominance and huge domestic market, but Western Europe may face a serious problem in the next 10 years. The failure of the EU due to political meddling in Greece, and illegal sabotage in Ukraine and Russia will prove to be very costly to France and Germany.
                              If the EU 'fails" it won't be because of these things.

                              It will be because some its largest economy participants proved completely incapable of the internal reforms needed to make it work. Italy's current difficulties were entirely predictable and have been building for decades. Its ongoing tolerance of institutionalised organized crime & corruption, destructive comedic politics (such as Berlusconi) and sclerotic bureaucrats discouraging investment and commerce have lasted a very long time, but cannot last "forever". The recent demonstration of France's inability to undertake even the most modest of labour market reforms is similar.

                              No wonder Mrs. Merkel is a passionate fan of Wagnerian operas...she's living in one every day.

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                              • Re: Yes Virginia...It's a Bubble...

                                i've been thinking that the eu's problem is that it wanted to be more than a free trade zone. if it had accepted that limited achievement the whole community would be better off. the euro, in particular, was a huge mistake- reaching far beyond their grasp.

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