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Most folks are good; a few aren't. -
Re: Looting Social Security, Part 2
I think WorldTraveler's viewpoint is a lot more balanced than the article... he's talking sense, but the article is not.Originally posted by aaron View Post
It is worth pointing out that retirees who paid "extra" payroll tax during their working years have already enjoyed the benefit of those "extra" tax dollars being spent on their behalf at the time the "extra" tax was collected... by government representatives for whom they, in aggregate, voted. Retirees who seek to claim pay-outs on the Social Security and Medicare Trust Funds are trying to double-dip, AND collect compounding interest on the double-dipping (because the Trust Funds collect interest on the GAS bonds they hold). They are essentially claiming a right to benefit twice from the extra payroll tax they paid... once when the tax revenue was spent for their benefit during their working years (and replaced by bonds in the Trust Funds), and later upon redemption of the Trust Fund bonds with interest. Those generations essentially paid for extra government services during their working years with the excess payroll tax (which is fair, because they had a vote for their representatives), but also attempted to pre-obligate general tax revenue from the future to be spent exclusively for their benefit in retirement (which is grossly unfair). I doubt that the average baby boomer actually was aware of these mechanics because so few are knowledgeable at this level of detail, but the facts are the facts. I think it is very bad form to insist upon a "right" to something so selfish and abusive, on the weak basis that one didn't realize what was going on when their generation set it up.Comment
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Re: Looting Social Security, Part 2
Asshole or not, that doesn't change the fact that what he is saying is objectively true -- and significant portions of what Greider is saying are objectively false. The man could be Satan himself, and acting purely out of self-interest... it doesn't change the facts.Originally posted by aaron View PostComment
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Re: Looting Social Security, Part 2
I agree. Society has to take care of its members at any given time. The fraudulent part of this is that workers who paid surplus payroll tax seem to think that should give them a right to a specific benefit level upon retirement. The truth of the matter is that all government spending comes out of immediate tax revenue and borrowing -- it has always been hand-to-mouth and it likely always will be. There is no real connection between the tax you pay during your working life and the revenue available to pay for your retirement. Social Security should be a need-based program. Maybe you pay in all your life and never collect a cent, because you have adequate personal savings. So be it. Rich people pay a lot of taxes in a progressive system that fund necessary public services they never use. People without kids pay for schools; people without cars pay for highways; doves pay for wars and isolationists pay for foreign aid. That is the compromise inherent in a nation.Originally posted by World Traveler View Post
The problem with the Trust Funds is that they present a fiction of one generation "paying in" to support itself in retirement, which has no connection to reality. If the Trust Funds held anything other than the government's own debt, they would hold assets whose sale could bring revenue into the Treasury, and they really would represent the legitimate savings of a generation which could legitimately be called upon to fund its retirement. Instead, the Trust Funds are a generational swindle that have the net effect of allowing retirees to get the use of their tax dollars twice.
What we owe retirees is some level of support commensurate to society's ability to generate wealth. But that level needs to be balanced by the needs of other generations. Workers who paid surplus FICA have absolutely no moral basis for claiming a pay-out on the Trust Funds, because nothing was ever saved. If you pay a tax and receive government services funded by that tax, how the hell can you expect to receive retirement benefits from the money that was already spent? And how can one possibly expect to collect interest on savings that were never made?
Everyone needs to be taken care of, but it is beyond obscene for Greider to say that retirees are owed a particular level of benefits because they paid "extra" payroll tax. And he must not be much of a journalist to imply that the Trust Funds represent a way to pay retirees what they're 'owed', when every year the Trustees themselves remind us that "Neither the redemption of trust fund bonds, nor interest paid on those bonds, provides any new net income to the Treasury, which must finance redemptions and interest payments through some combination of increased taxation, reductions in other government spending, or additional borrowing from the public."Last edited by ASH; January 14, 2010, 11:19 PM.Comment
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Re: Looting Social Security, Part 2
I absolutely agree with what you are saying. However, I get very emotional about the subject.
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And I here I go again!
I was really young then, but I remember Ross Perot educating the country with graphs and stuff. I could wikipedia it up, but I think he told the boomers the truth. It makes me want to scream.
Social security should be means tested down to the poorest of the poor. Medicare should be too. YOU ALL KNEW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Here's an idea:
Social security ought to be like the work-study bullshit invented for today's indentured students. At 65 you are given a mop and $5 bucks an hour to clean up the mess you made. Suddenly, there will be a lot of savers who do not need SS. Others might discover that if they put down the Denny's grand slam senior specials, at 65 you might actually be healthy enough to do something useful. For example, take care of your grandchildren since your kids can no longer afford the nanny.
This is not to say we should not take care of the truly poor. Several of them can fit in one of those $5000 dollar foreclosures in Detroit, for example. Since the government will likely end up owning (directly, or indirectly) most real estate, I think it is a fair, equitable distribution of wealth. And, it would only cost us imaginary money that has already been monetized. The government is broke, but can probably afford to provide shared housing and food stamps to those who need it. Charity can pick up the rest.Comment
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Re: Looting Social Security, Part 2
Maybe Greider was and is a well paid journalist.Originally posted by ASH View Post
He is looking out for himself. Wouldn't be the first time.
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Re: Looting Social Security, Part 2
social security is a regressive wage tax posing as a pyramid scheme.
like any con game, it plays on the mercenary desires of its victims, the wage earners and - thus - the social security tax payers. our poorest workers pay far more in social security tax than they do in income taxes. meanwhile the tax cuts out for high income earners, and dwindles to insignificance as earnings rise.
the wage tax should be abolished and replaced by either a consumption/value added tax or rolled into the income tax.
the benefits should be means tested in one form or another.
the former is unlikely. the latter is inevitable, though it will likely be disguised by gimmicks involving taxing back the benefits. the losers will be middle income retirees. surprise!
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