Extra Ammonia on your Big Mac?

[Guinnesstime]

Re: Extra Ammonia on your Big Mac?

Do they use organic ammonia at farmer's markets?

Likely they don't use any ammonia for products bought at farmer's markets.
We don't use any ammonia to clean our homegrown meat and veggies.

I don't know if/or how often ammonia treatments are used on raw produce, but processed foods ex: French fries are generally sanitized with ammonia. As far as I know most commercial meats are as well.

[Guinnesstime]

Re: Extra Ammonia on your Big Mac?

I've been exploring grass-fed beef options for the last year, typically ordering a 1-3 month supply of product from a given producer.
I've been trying to identify quality family/smallholder producers with a decent shipping options.

In my latest trial, my wife an I remarked at how fresh the ground beef tasted. It smelled like it had been freshly slaughtered; this perception was something I had not encountered since eating some backwoods European meat over a decade ago.

We have almost completely switched over to in-state (relatively) local meat producers, largely because the loss-leader (presumably national) meats on sale at the local grocery stores are incredibly fatty/gristly, so much so that over half of the uncooked weight of the meat must be discarded, effectively doubling the "sale price."

There's definitely something amiss with the quality and nutritional content of "supermaket" beef. It bodes ill in the extreme for the clueless.

Its all that corn they feed the beef that ruins it. We grass feed our beef up until the month of slaughter then we feed it a bit of grain to fatten it up just a little with the idea that it will add a little bit of flavor.

[marvenger]

Re: Extra Ammonia on your Big Mac?

some seriously messed up shit is allowed in the name of higher profits. All americans should check milk labels for rBGH free labels.
http://www.ejnet.org/bgh/nogood.html
Here in aussie we don't have this problem yet...I think!

[GRG55]

Re: Extra Ammonia on your Big Mac?

The more the farmer strays from the conditions in which the animal exists in nature, the more unhealthy the animal will become. Eating unhealthy animals is unhealthy for humans . . . .

I've often wondered if the seemingly regular breakout of diseases, such as foot and mouth disease in the UK, is a function of our intensive agriculture practices in the "developed" economies? Land values have now been inflated to such a ridiculous extent in these economies [during the multi-decade FIRE era] that there's no possibility of generating an adequate income or return from agriculture.

The region where I live is historic cattle ranching country, vast rangeland with fabulous grass...so rich that despite 150 years of settlement activity around organized ranching the area is still teaming with big game - deer, moose, elk, grizzlies [I've counted herds of more than 200 wild elk migrating from the high country within a mile of my home]. The land values for recreational use far outstrip the economics of cattle ranching, and over the past 25 years, as land prices [and taxes] have been steadily pushed into the stratosphere, the old ranches are steadily being carved up as the families, no longer able to make a sufficient living raising cattle, carve off yet another quarter or full section [640 acres] and sell it on to someone [like me] from the city.

And over time the agriculture becomes more intense in an effort to get enough return from the remaining, increasingly expensive land. We are a long way from having to farm as intensively as they now do in England [where land prices are, frankly, ludicrous]...but I can't help but think the direction, and the potential consequences [7 million animals were culled in the UK during the 2001 foot and mouth episode], seem clear...

[yernamehear]

Re: Extra Ammonia on your Big Mac?

Once again, like so many things, in moderate quantities NH3 [ammonia] is beneficial...in fact much of life on earth couldn't exist without ammonia.

But it would be damn difficult to create "organic" ammonia molecule...by definition organic chemistry requires a carbon-hydrogen bond...so what we need to do is soak the meat in gasoline...

Yes, like so many chemicals, ammonia has an acceptable and/or optimum concentration, which is needed for life and/or will be harmless.

I am quite sure the amount of ammonia used is harmless. You do have ammonia in your body naturally.

[reallife]

Re: Extra Ammonia on your Big Mac?

So amusing.

salmonella and e coli are ubiquitous in nature. The only reason Americans lack resistance to these common life forms is our unusually sanitary environment and food supply prevents exposure at a young age, when the immune system is being trained to fight disease.

So what do they do? "cure" this problem by injecting our food supply with a toxic chemical for which we have no defense.

America, the endless comedy.

So now you are an epidemiologist and microbiologist, as well? Wow! You are good! :eek:

[strittmatter]

Re: Extra Ammonia on your Big Mac?

How about "free range" ammonia? Maybe we could use that.

Well, if the cows could talk, they might ask "Where you been?". You can google-up most any major university (with an ag dept.) and view their beef production comparison study results, type in: beef+foliage+ammoniated hay+study.

One of the major drawbacks they have all discovered: Feeding to much ammonia could make the cows go crazy.

http://www.fao.org/docrep/005/y1936e/y1936e07.htm

Zhang Zhishan
Ministry of Agriculture
Yan Qiaojuan
China Agricultural University
Introduction

As early as 1933, a German scientist started research on straw treatment with ammonia. In 1938, scientists in the former Soviet Union treated wheat straw with anhydrous ammonia to increase digestibility. In the 1950s, a Danish patent was issued on ammonia treatment technology. From the 1970s, Bangladesh, Canada, Denmark, Egypt, India, Japan, Niger, Norway, Tunisia, United Kingdom and USA started research on straw ammoniation. Some countries have popularized ammoniation at national level. Straw ammoniation technologies were introduced to Norway in 1975 with government financial support, and in 1988 total straw treatment had reached 130 thousand tonne, 17.3 percent of total straw output. For environmental protection, Denmark recently prohibited straw burning.
Chinese farmers have known that human urine can be used to treat straw for cattle feed. It is pity that no research has been done on this. From the 1980s, China started to adjust its animal production structure with a new policy of a grain saving strategy. Fundamental research and experiments were started. MOA began to popularize straw ammoniation in 1987. In 1989, straw ammoniation became one of ten key extension techniques of MOA, and by 1993 it had been popularized throughout the country, with 11.7 million tonne of straw treated, the largest in the world. FAO and UNDP had several successful projects on straw utilization for feeding animals. At FAO's suggestion, international conferences on Increasing Animal Production with Local Resources were organized in China on three occasions. These conferences provided the opportunity to exchange experiences among different countries.

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: Extra Ammonia on your Big Mac?

Well, if the cows could talk, they might ask "Where you been?". You can google-up most any major university (with an ag dept.) and view their beef production comparison study results, type in: beef+foliage+ammoniated hay+study.

Google is good. I searched on the terms you suggested, and the very first hit I got was to this very iTulip thread:

[Jay]

Re: Extra Ammonia on your Big Mac?

I've often wondered if the seemingly regular breakout of diseases, such as foot and mouth disease in the UK, is a function of our intensive agriculture practices in the "developed" economies?

Yes it is, as is the emergence of resistant bacteria to antibiotics due to rampant use in livestock.

[peakishmael]

Re: Extra Ammonia on your Big Mac?

Yes, like so many chemicals, ammonia has an acceptable and/or optimum concentration, which is needed for life and/or will be harmless.

I am quite sure the amount of ammonia used is harmless.

What makes you so confident? I'm not trying to be snarky. I'm interested in quantitative data / reasoning behind your statement.

[yernamehear]

Re: Extra Ammonia on your Big Mac?

What makes you so confident? I'm not trying to be snarky. I'm interested in quantitative data / reasoning behind your statement.

The first place to start is a material safety data sheet (MSDS). WWW search aplenty.

Also see Professor Bruce Ames' website on chemical toxicity.

An old saw: "the dose makes the poison".

Did you know there is such a thing as water toxicity?

EVERYTHING is toxic at the right concentration, and NOTHING is toxic at a sufficiently small concentration (meaning of the word optimum....).

[peakishmael]

Re: Extra Ammonia on your Big Mac?

The first place to start is a material safety data sheet (MSDS). WWW search aplenty.

Also see Professor Bruce Ames' website on chemical toxicity.

An old saw: "the dose makes the poison".

Did you know there is such a thing as water toxicity?

EVERYTHING is toxic at the right concentration, and NOTHING is toxic at a sufficiently small concentration (meaning of the word optimum....).

I understand that. But you didn't answer my question. I was hoping that since you were so confident about THIS specific issue (ammonia) that you would be able to quickly cite what the currently accepted toxic ingestion amount is, and how much there is in a typical pound of this "beef product", and perhaps whether toxic levels have ever been found.

All you've done is tell me to do the research. But if you haven't done it yourself, then your statement would seem to be one of faith, not fact.

[yernamehear]

Re: Extra Ammonia on your Big Mac?

I understand that. But you didn't answer my question. I was hoping that since you were so confident about THIS specific issue (ammonia) that you would be able to quickly cite what the currently accepted toxic ingestion amount is, and how much there is in a typical pound of this "beef product", and perhaps whether toxic levels have ever been found.

All you've done is tell me to do the research. But if you haven't done it yourself, then your statement would seem to be one of faith, not fact.

OK, if you don't want to make the effort yourself, that's your business. I also don't keep a dictionary around so I figure out what "the meaning of the word 'is is'". These facts are obvious to anybody who works in certain technical fields.

Note- I have worked with this (NH3) and many materials for many decades; and not in the food industry...so I don't have a conflict of interest. I couldn't care less whether they use NH3 to treat the meat. Also, ammonia, depending on exactly what form it's in is a good choice because much of the excess can/will volatilise off (not remain in the food). As with most decisions, the choice to use NH3 for this purpose probably has lots of good reasoning behind it.

Happy Dooming ;)

[peakishmael]

Re: Extra Ammonia on your Big Mac?

OK, if you don't want to make the effort yourself, that's your business. I also don't keep a dictionary around so I figure out what "the meaning of the word 'is is'". These facts are obvious to anybody who works in certain technical fields.

Note- I have worked with this (NH3) and many materials for many decades; and not in the food industry...so I don't have a conflict of interest. I couldn't care less whether they use NH3 to treat the meat. Also, ammonia, depending on exactly what form it's in is a good choice because much of the excess can/will volatilise off (not remain in the food). As with most decisions, the choice to use NH3 for this purpose probably has lots of good reasoning behind it.

Happy Dooming ;)

Well, I did do a little research... found lots of stuff about unsafe levels for inhalation, but not much about ingestion, except that it's really not a good idea to drink NH3 in "high concentrations" due to the rather nasty and direct effects it can have on the upper GI tract, which is why one is warned to not induce vomiting if swallowed.

Also learned that "normal" blood ammonia levels are about 15-80 micrograms per deciliter. If I'm doing the math right, that's less than one part in a million. The "beef product" in the article obviously has a lot higher level than that, since 50ppm (in the air) is the rough lower limit for being able to smell it. Obviously it isn't being sold in beef at levels that cause immediate esophageal damage, but since I can't find any studies of the effects of long-term low-level ingestion... I don't have the same warm feeling about it that you seem to. Not so much because of what could happen after it gets into the bloodstream, but before.

But if your liver happens to be shot, it seems even a single moderate dose might cause elevated blood ammonia levels. http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/26/5/487

Couldn't find anything to address volatilizing during cooking... it would be interesting to know what typical concentrations are before/after cooking a burger.

[strittmatter]

Re: Extra Ammonia on your Big Mac?

Google is good. I searched on the terms you suggested, and the very first hit I got was to this very iTulip thread:

and down the rabbit hole portal we go...............