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  • Housing Elephant Unseen

    In what has become the msm mantra, everything but lower pricing is seen as the hope for housing.... Lower pricing....baaaad. Affordable pricing...baaaad. Balloon pricing....goooood

    December 30, 2009
    Slight Rise in Home Prices Masks Signs of Weakness

    By DAVID STREITFELD

    Home prices rose modestly in October but beneath the apparent good news were some disquieting signs of deterioration. Analysts expect prices this winter to resume their descent, putting fresh pressure on the fragile economy.

    The Standard & Poor’s/Case-Shiller home price index, a widely watched measure of housing markets in 20 metropolitan areas, rose 0.4 percent from September on a seasonally adjusted basis.

    It was the fifth consecutive month that prices were up, but the rate of increase has dropped sharply from the impressive gains of the summer. Analysts said the government’s extensive and expensive effort to prop up the market was showing signs of fatigue.

    A tax credit for first-time buyers has been extended until spring, but the urgency that buyers showed this summer is draining away. The Federal Reserve has pushed down rates to the lowest level in decades, but says that program will end by March 31.

    Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, the government-controlled mortgage giants, are tightening their policies for loans in their portfolio. That is making lenders who sell their mortgages to Fannie and Freddie even more skittish about extending credit to new buyers.

    The Federal Housing Administration, which has become an important part of the entry-level housing market, is expected to tighten its standards in the next few weeks. That would further crimp the pool of eligible buyers.

    Meanwhile, foreclosures are continuing to affect the market, and credit remains tight.

    Put all these elements together, said Dan Greenhaus, chief economic strategist for Miller Tabak and Company, and “it is more than likely that prices have a bit further to fall.”

    Case-Shiller adjusts its numbers for seasonal variations. This tends to hide any weakness in the cooler months, when fewer houses are sold.
    On an unadjusted basis, the index was flat in October.

    “We’ve started to see the possibility of either a leveling off of prices for a few months or perhaps a double-dip,” said Maureen Maitland, the vice president for index services at S.& P.

    The Case-Shiller index is down 7.3 percent from October a year ago and is off 29.5 percent from its peak.

    Prices fell or were flat in nine of the 20 cities surveyed in October, the same as in September. But the recovery is beginning to diverge sharply by metro area, Wells Fargo’s chief economist, John Silvia, noted.

    In the last three months, prices in San Francisco increased at an annual rate of 25 percent while Minneapolis was up 17 percent and Los Angeles rose 11 percent. Phoenix, long a laggard, rose 13 percent.

    But New York, Portland, Ore., and Boston were up less than 2 percent.

    Las Vegas, the epicenter of the housing crash, shows no signs of recovery. Prices have fallen there for 38 months, and are now barely above the level at which they began the decade.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/30/bu...30econ.html?hp
    Last edited by don; December 29, 2009, 03:37 PM.

  • #2
    Re: Housing Elephant Unseen

    Yes please tell all the brainwashed folks that you know - low prices are good for you, bad for the banks and real estate agents.

    If houses can crash down to 50-60K for an average suburbian home then alomst all Americans could actually OWN A HOME and the rest could pay off thier mortgages fast.

    Then American's could put thier savings into true investments, real American business, and then the downward debt spiral could start to turn up.

    Real Estate is the tool of the bank scumbags to enslave nations, the first step out is for people to understand that if REAL ESTATE goes down in your nieghborhood WE ALL WIN...THE BANKS LOSE.

    Real Estate agents go back to selling used cars and hamburgers.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Housing Elephant Unseen

      I agree with you about the brainwashed folks, but can you explain what you mean when you say the rest of us could pay off our mortgages fast?

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Housing Elephant Unseen

        Originally posted by MulaMan View Post
        Yes please tell all the brainwashed folks that you know - low prices are good for you, bad for the banks and real estate agents.

        If houses can crash down to 50-60K for an average suburbian home then alomst all Americans could actually OWN A HOME and the rest could pay off thier mortgages fast.

        Then American's could put thier savings into true investments, real American business, and then the downward debt spiral could start to turn up.

        Real Estate is the tool of the bank scumbags to enslave nations, the first step out is for people to understand that if REAL ESTATE goes down in your nieghborhood WE ALL WIN...THE BANKS LOSE.

        Real Estate agents go back to selling used cars and hamburgers.

        Yeah it'd be great.... for the 1/3 of the population that rents. FIRE has the other 2/3 in a suicide pact with their houses.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Housing Elephant Unseen

          Originally posted by MulaMan View Post
          Yes please tell all the brainwashed folks that you know - low prices are good for you, bad for the banks and real estate agents.

          Real Estate agents go back to selling used cars and hamburgers.
          Years ago Travel Agents were necessary. I hope the same fate awaits Realtors. A small flat fee to meet you at a house you picked out on line- period. No more skimming the equity cream off the top. That might even short-circuit (somewhat) the local real estate insider trading that's endemic to the biz-ness.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Housing Elephant Unseen

            Originally posted by MulaMan View Post
            Yes please tell all the brainwashed folks that you know - low prices are good for you, bad for the banks and real estate agents.

            If houses can crash down to 50-60K for an average suburbian home then alomst all Americans could actually OWN A HOME and the rest could pay off thier mortgages fast.

            Then American's could put thier savings into true investments, real American business, and then the downward debt spiral could start to turn up.

            Real Estate is the tool of the bank scumbags to enslave nations, the first step out is for people to understand that if REAL ESTATE goes down in your nieghborhood WE ALL WIN...THE BANKS LOSE.

            Real Estate agents go back to selling used cars and hamburgers.
            You can't explain common-sense de-flation economics to Bernanke, nor to the anyone at the Federal Reserve Bank. You can't explain common-sense de-flation economics to anyone sitting in university economics departments to-day.

            Isn't it interesting how everyone benefits by de-flation in the long run, but de-flation is viewed as a mortal danger by economists and politicians? Inflation which destroys everyone's savings is viewed as "healthy" and a sign of a strong economy. :rolleyes:

            Another interesting thing is how bailing-out the most inept and corrupt banks/bankers was seen by Bernanke as vital to economic recovery; hence, we witness his TARP programme foisted upon America. And after the bail-outs, these bank managers awarded themselves millions in bonuses.
            Last edited by Starving Steve; December 29, 2009, 06:21 PM.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Housing Elephant Unseen

              In case no one was aware of this, real estate is traditionally slower in the winter months. I'm too tired right now to address the rest of the foolishness here.:mad:

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Housing Elephant Unseen

                Real Estate is doing interesting things in my locale. Let me preface by saying this is a desirable area, not one of those far-inland developments driven purely by bubble energy. That said, for those houses here priced appropriately, prices seem to have hit a magic low-enough number and they are seeing 20 or 30 offers on a house. All those bids are driving the selling prices well above the listing prices. The houses are going to all-cash buyers who bid the price well above 'asking'. Lots of them turn into flips where they add a lot more on top of that and flip/resell very quickly. Flippers are back in business!

                Regular consumers who thought they were going to wait it out for a bottom feeder price and 'steal one from the bank' are finding themselves skunked again and again. They're not offering a high enough price above 'asking'. There are even brand new housing developments starting here because the banks are pooping out foreclosures too slowly to meet demand. The brand new houses are simply priced at what people seem willing to pay around here, and they're getting them on the market more quickly than the foreclosures.

                We may well have hit bottom here, and bounced off it. Yes, more foreclosures are coming. Lots of them. But if they don't come on the market fast enough to meet demand, the bottom may not be broken through again.

                This may not be the story for other locales- but that's the deal here.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Housing Elephant Unseen

                  I believe that the article takes that into account

                  The Standard & Poor’s/Case-Shiller home price index, a widely watched measure of housing markets in 20 metropolitan areas, rose 0.4 percent from September on a seasonally adjusted basis.

                  It was the fifth consecutive month that prices were up, but the rate of increase has dropped sharply from the impressive gains of the summer. Analysts said the government’s extensive and expensive effort to prop up the market was showing signs of fatigue.
                  .
                  .
                  .
                  Case-Shiller adjusts its numbers for seasonal variations. This tends to hide any weakness in the cooler months, when fewer houses are sold.
                  On an unadjusted basis, the index was flat in October.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Housing Elephant Unseen

                    Originally posted by pianodoctor View Post
                    Real Estate is doing interesting things in my locale. Let me preface by saying this is a desirable area, not one of those far-inland developments driven purely by bubble energy. That said, for those houses here priced appropriately, prices seem to have hit a magic low-enough number and they are seeing 20 or 30 offers on a house. All those bids are driving the selling prices well above the listing prices. The houses are going to all-cash buyers who bid the price well above 'asking'. Lots of them turn into flips where they add a lot more on top of that and flip/resell very quickly. Flippers are back in business!

                    Regular consumers who thought they were going to wait it out for a bottom feeder price and 'steal one from the bank' are finding themselves skunked again and again. They're not offering a high enough price above 'asking'. There are even brand new housing developments starting here because the banks are pooping out foreclosures too slowly to meet demand. The brand new houses are simply priced at what people seem willing to pay around here, and they're getting them on the market more quickly than the foreclosures.

                    We may well have hit bottom here, and bounced off it. Yes, more foreclosures are coming. Lots of them. But if they don't come on the market fast enough to meet demand, the bottom may not be broken through again.

                    This may not be the story for other locales- but that's the deal here.

                    It's funny, I live nearby - in the OC (I see you're in Carslbad, just a short drive south from where I am). And I see a part of the picture you're seeing, but the other part is quite different.

                    Let me say that for houses in nicest areas of the LA, OC and SD counties, what you say is true. For example, Rancho Santa Fe, or Newport, or as you mentioned Carlsbad. But in reality, 90% of the population in these counties lives elsewhere.

                    So in these 'elsewhere' places, the situation is reverse. For example, Laguna Hills (minus exclusive pockets such as Nellie Gail), or inland, for example Murrieta (FBI ranks it second safest city in the nation, very nice family oriented place to live). In these places (be it coast or inland), prices are dropping. And get this, if you are a cash buyer, you can offer 30% LESS THAN ASKING PRICE and still get the place. I am speaking from experience. Here is an example that demonstrates why is this so. For example there is a nice condo in Laguna or a big house in Temecula. RE Agent tells you there are 14 offers on this place. Ok, fine. Then you forget about it and come back in 6 months. The place is still for sale, and ALL 14 OFFERS have fallen out, for the reasons that people make offers without having money (or a loan), or just simply going around to look for houses for fun. Offer on a house these days MEANS NOTHING. So then you come back and offer 30% less than asking price in cash. Bank is insulted, RE Agent almost won't convey the offer to the Bank. But eventually they may yield because otherwise they may not sell it ever.

                    So, I am saying that you are right when it comes to very very very nice areas that by far most people can't touch with a nine-yard pole. But in the rest of the world (my freehand estimate, 90% of the market), the situation is reversed.

                    Why is this so? Traditionally, best areas keep value. And that may be true. But I am not so sure. In the OC, many companies have shut the doors. A few days ago, on Saturday Dec 27 (the best shopping day of the year), in Aliso Wood and Creek Canyon, the entire dirt parking was full with families walking around - AND NOT SHOPPING. I can't tell you how strange this is. I've never ever seen this parking full, and on shopping holidays, it's always empty. Now it was full. People were walking (cheap fun), not shopping. It was bizzare. I was bummed, because I like it empty.

                    My point is, some of these high priced areas may be in for a rude awakening. There is some talk about a few bigger companies moving from LA, OC and SD into Murrieta - the Inland Empire! Why? Because lots of qualified people moved from ritzy areas they can't afford to here. Where there are jobs, the housing market will do fine. I don't know if this will happen though. The point is, things are uncertain on both ends.

                    I would be interested to hear what others think about where are prices now, and where they are headed.
                    Last edited by serge_oc; January 08, 2010, 11:34 AM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Housing Elephant Unseen

                      Originally posted by Starving Steve View Post
                      You can't explain common-sense de-flation economics to Bernanke, nor to the anyone at the Federal Reserve Bank. You can't explain common-sense de-flation economics to anyone sitting in university economics departments to-day.

                      Isn't it interesting how everyone benefits by de-flation in the long run, but de-flation is viewed as a mortal danger by economists and politicians? Inflation which destroys everyone's savings is viewed as "healthy" and a sign of a strong economy. :rolleyes:

                      Another interesting thing is how bailing-out the most inept and corrupt banks/bankers was seen by Bernanke as vital to economic recovery; hence, we witness his TARP programme foisted upon America. And after the bail-outs, these bank managers awarded themselves millions in bonuses.
                      Excellent appraisal of the whole rotten situation. Excellent. I couldn't agree more.

                      It's amazing how intelligent and sensible you are when you take your meds! :p

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Housing Elephant Unseen

                        Read this:-

                        http://www.financialarmageddon.com/

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Housing Elephant Unseen

                          Originally posted by pianodoctor View Post
                          We may well have hit bottom here, and bounced off it.
                          ..or you could have just hit a ledge on the way down and got airborne again.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Housing Elephant Unseen

                            Originally posted by DRumsfeld2000 View Post
                            Thank you for this link. It EXACTLY describes what is happening. As for why falling real estate prices are a good thing even for underwater homeowners, they can reduce their minimum living expenses either by defaulting and renting from an investor who buys foreclosed homes. By lowering their minimum living expenses, they become more competitive in the global economy.

                            In a race to the bottom, the first one there wins the race. We should be encouraging debt liquidation, not debt extensions, debt forbearance, debt moritoria or debt re-amortization. Only the first is a solution that will benefit the common citizen; all the other solutions benefit only the FIRE economy and its parasitic denizens.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Housing Elephant Unseen

                              Originally posted by don
                              Years ago Travel Agents were necessary. I hope the same fate awaits Realtors. A small flat fee to meet you at a house you picked out on line- period. No more skimming the equity cream off the top. That might even short-circuit (somewhat) the local real estate insider trading that's endemic to the biz-ness.
                              There are some differences between a realtor and a travel agent.

                              Travel is a generic commodity. For the most part, a seat on one airplane is identical to another. But more importantly, the variables and legal issues attached to travel are few.

                              Real estate, on the other hand, has legal issues like title issues, covenants and conveyances, comparable pricing, etc etc.

                              A good realtor understands the local market in a historical sense should the buyer not - price history as well as other issues like schooling, urban development direction, etc.

                              The real issue as I see it is the commission. The 'standard' 6% commission is simply too high for the modern era; it was designed for a lower volume and smaller income to house price multiples but has carried over due to historical inertia.

                              Unfortunately or fortunately the recent several decades' worth of higher real estate transaction volumes look to be returning to historical mean; perhaps the ultimate remedy is simply the death of the RE bubble which in turn will relegate real estate realtor-dom to those who choose to be professionals as opposed to 'get rich quick'.

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