A tangled solar-power web...

[Ghent12]

Re: A tangled solar-power web...

Why should the US taxpayer make any public land, in the Mojave or anywhere else, available for free to a private enterprise. Would anyone advocate free oil and gas drilling leases on public lands [if anything the lease rates are too low and should be made available only through open auction]. How about free land for nuclear power plants [as opposed to nuclear waste dumps, which always seem to be proposed on public lands]. Free timber rights? Free grazing leases? See that's the problem...the powerful and entrenched interests benefit and the US taxpayer once again ends up finishing last...

Let us also not forget the instances of Eminent Domain invoked to steal land from people for the benefit of private interests. The further subset of abuse being those instances where the private interests didn't even bother to develop their freshly-stolen gains.

[fallout]

Re: A tangled solar-power web...

I can only speak for my personal experience, but at my house, the only one among the 256,000 citizens served by our local electric coop to have solar distributed generation (you wouldn't believe the battle I went through with them just to allow me to turn it on, despite state laws requiring them to run the meter backwards and continue to provide service), they....
1) Put a warning sign on the pole/transformer serving my house (Generator on line)
2) Required an external and labeled manual disconnect box for the system, right next to the meter.
Not required, but none the less provided by the PV system itself, is a built-in automatic disconnect in inverter/controller. The inverter requires the presence of grid power, and automatically and very quickly shuts down the AC side of the system should grid power be lost, out of predefined levels (i.e. fluctuating, brown out conditions, power surge, etc). The power company tested this feature and was quite satisfied that it worked as advertised.

[ggirod]

Re: A tangled solar-power web...

Can anybody out there tell me how a power company safely isolates parts of the grid if they have to work on it, in a situation where there are numerous residential/private point sources able to feed into the tail end of the system? I've always been curious about that. There must be a solution or they simply wouldn't allow power to be reversed back into the grid.

If there is no external power source, the inverter has nothing to sync to and it stops running. That keeps feeds from running in the absence of a working grid. I think quite a few areas allow people to sell back into the grid in unlimited quantities but, of course, the sale is wholesale so the bulk of the savings come from supplying your own loads first, since you avoid the cost for kwh, fuel adj, delivery, etc.

Put the solar panels on your own roofs and your own property so that you get the benefits and not Goldman Sachs.

An excellent idea, but have you checked how many solar panels you require for air conditioning or to actually carry your load? Doing your part for alternative energy is costly in personal investment and its return is probably limited, though right now payoff looks OK. Imagine return at 5% interest or more .... Then again, if you invest cash, you probably come out ok, if you don't look at opportunity cost when interest rises.

[Starving Steve]

Re: A tangled solar-power web...

What is there to preserve in the Mojave Desert? Scorpions and rattle-snakes? Garbage? Tumble-weeds? Weeds? Weed? Sand and gravel? Thorns? Gang tagging? Broken glass? Heat?

The whole bunch of eco-frauds makes me want to vomit, and you can start with Dianne Feinstein, Nancy Pelosi, the WWF, Greenpeace, the Sierra Club, Prince Charles, Al Gore, among a list of dozens of other idiots, idiotic groups, and elitist groups.:rolleyes:

What this stupidity shows me is that the lawyers are getting rich from frivolous environmental actions. Thus, it is time to invest in China and India, and certainly NOT America the way it is now. The cost of law-suits and legal protections against law-suits has made the cost-of-living and conducting business in America too high.

[ggirod]

Re: A tangled solar-power web...

What is there to preserve in the Mojave Desert? Scorpions and rattle-snakes? Garbage? Tumble-weeds? Weeds? Weed? Sand and gravel? Thorns? Gang tagging? Broken glass? Heat?

There are several thousand species of organisms living there. The top few cm of the sand consolidates with traces of organic materials to produce a delicate soil that supports lots of seasonal plants. Riding a dirt bike through the sand dunes can destroy the soil for centuries.
We face a challenge in the coming century or two when plants will need to thrive in extremes of temperature and drought lest large chunks of humanity pass prematurely to the great beyond. The genes from but one well adapted plant in the Mojave desert could be spliced into food plants and end up saving you or your progeny. So, in short, that is what to preserve in the Mojave Desert. Then again, if you happen to be religious, then we are tasked by our supreme being(s) to love, respect, and care for our land as good stewards, so ... science or theology -- result is the same!

That said, now, why in the hell should an area preserved as wilderness and dedicated for preservation be trashed with solar and wind installations when other areas are available and have already been trashed? Well, here is my .02 worth. Knee-jerk anti-environmentalists play into the hands of TPTB who want to insert poison pills into initiatives like wind and solar power because they would really rather poison our progeny with mercury-laden "clean coal" and CO2-laden fossil fuels than exploit free energy given some properly applied wide open spaces and wise investments in infrastructure.

[GRG55]

Re: A tangled solar-power web...

If there is no external power source, the inverter has nothing to sync to and it stops running. That keeps feeds from running in the absence of a working grid. I think quite a few areas allow people to sell back into the grid in unlimited quantities but, of course, the sale is wholesale so the bulk of the savings come from supplying your own loads first, since you avoid the cost for kwh, fuel adj, delivery, etc...

I can only speak for my personal experience, but at my house, the only one among the 256,000 citizens served by our local electric coop to have solar distributed generation (you wouldn't believe the battle I went through with them just to allow me to turn it on, despite state laws requiring them to run the meter backwards and continue to provide service), they....
1) Put a warning sign on the pole/transformer serving my house (Generator on line)
2) Required an external and labeled manual disconnect box for the system, right next to the meter.
Not required, but none the less provided by the PV system itself, is a built-in automatic disconnect in inverter/controller. The inverter requires the presence of grid power, and automatically and very quickly shuts down the AC side of the system should grid power be lost, out of predefined levels (i.e. fluctuating, brown out conditions, power surge, etc). The power company tested this feature and was quite satisfied that it worked as advertised.

Thank you. I thought there must be an elegant solution to that issue...

[globaleconomicollaps]

Re: A tangled solar-power web...

Again you show your complete lack of economic understanding.

Solar power being sent into the grid is useless because it accentuates the peak demand vs. peak supply. What is necessary is to equalize the two.

Forcing electric utilities to buy more peak supply electricity just increases costs overall as this extra power will just as likely wind up being lost in transmission, being grounded, or otherwise wasted.

Electricity costs including generation and transmission going into a house must be different than electricity prices leaving a house - and the resulting price derived nor grid-wide benefit would not amount to much at all.

I have been looking for a opportunity to insert this thought. The main issue with solar panels is that they only address the electricity side of energy use and only during the day. Most of my energy use is at night and consists of home heating, gas for cooking and hot water. It would be ideal if a solar hot water heater was combined with a small generator to produce electricity from the hot water ( ideally in vacuum flask style hot water tank ). Is anybody making such a thing and is it economical? So time ago I came across this guy:
http://www.usherbrooke.ca/gmecanique..._frechette.htm

who makes these things:

http://www.usherbrooke.ca/gmecanique...#Microturbines

and holds a patent on a sealed microscopic turbine that runs on ammonia or other phase change gas/liquid to generate electricity.

Does this ring any bells? Is anybody commercializing this?

-Global

[Starving Steve]

Re: A tangled solar-power web...

The environment in the Mojave Desert is much less hostile to people than the environment on Mars, but that is about all that can be said in favour of the Mojave Desert. At least the Mojave Desert has gang tagging; there is absolutely nothing for mankind on Mars.

Walk ten miles in the Mojave in high summer--- with the rocks, the thorns, the hornets, the snakes, the cloudless sky, the excessive heat, and the baking and blinding sun. :rolleyes:

Let the solar power nuts do their solar thing in the Mojave. Solar power plants are also being constructed in the Sahara Desert. Why would anyone care to stop these projects in deserts?

[MulaMan]

Re: A tangled solar-power web...

Let the solar power nuts do their solar thing in the Mojave.

Yes Goldman Sachs is filled with "solar power nuts" - LOL - You are an absolute retard...truely....

if you knew anything about investing the important information here is that Goldman Sachs was interested in seeing if they could get "free" public lands from the taxpayers to build a massive solar utility....now why would Goldman Sachs want to do that...they know that there is plenty of oil....GS is not in the business of losing money....