Beverly Hillbillies told to git

[Milton Kuo]

Re: Beverly Hillbillies told to git

You do know that in Wisconsin -they taught in Swedish for decades, and also what is wrong with foreign languages? Its ok to study Latin and preen about or French/German -but somehow -Spanish is inordinately offensive-when it is a Romance language and can be a very helpful doorway to Italian and French.

I just don't get it -!

I would worry about why Public funds fund so many private schools and also why public infra-structure (public health nurses) are required to service them -since many pay not taxes?!

As I stated above, I think most Americans would benefit from learning a foreign language and I support (actually, I strongly support) the teaching of foreign languages in a public school system. I do not, however, believe that the primary language used in teaching in the U.S. should be anything but English.

Furthermore, the U.S. has changed a lot since those days you reference in Wisconsin. Those students who only spoke Swedish and could not speak English could not (would not?) subsequently sue if they somehow couldn't get admitted into the better universities.

What my opinion boils down to is this: if I'm going to be paying taxes for something, I want to minimize my liability. I sure as heck do not want to pay additional taxes to hire specialized staff to teach a non-standard curriculum (such as having all classes taught in a language other than English) only to have the beneficiaries of such a program (the students) force me to pay even more taxes down the line when they discover that not being fluent in English precludes them from getting into the better universities and many of the better jobs in this country.

Is that so unreasonable? Should I go to a country, e.g. France, demand that the public schools I attend be taught in Chinese, and then sue the French government when I cannot get into the Sorbonne because I can barely speak a word of French?

[Starving Steve]

Re: Beverly Hillbillies told to git

I will not address your other points, with which I mostly agree, but I will address the issue of teaching classes in Spanish in a publicly-funded schooling system. I am vehemently opposed to having classes taught in Spanish in the United States. The United States was founded by English-speaking peoples and established as an English-speaking republic. Every immigrant group that has ever come to the United States (with one seeming, glaring exception) has learned to communicate in English and integrate into the framework of the U.S. political, cultural, and legal system. Every immigrant group since the founding of the United States has come here with the full knowledge that the U.S. is an English-speaking country and accepted it.

It is an unfair burden and an insult to both native English speakers and English-speaking immigrants to have to pay for the additional costs of supporting Spanish-language renditions of services for people who refuse to make an earnest effort to integrate into American society. Those proposing that U.S. public schools teach their classes using Spanish will find that no other non-Spanish-speaking country on the face of the planet will even consider such an idea.

For what it's worth, I have no quarrels with Spanish (or any other language) being taught as a foreign language and am of the opinion that most Americans would derive some benefit if they had some exposure to a foreign language. Likewise, if a privately-funded school wishes to teach its classes in a language other than English, I have absolutely no complaints. However, I draw the line at being forced to subsidize, either through taxes or hidden fees, a class of people who refuse to make any effort to integrate and seem intent on balkanizing the U.S.

Finally, if we allow our public schools to teach in Spanish, does it become necessary to create a Spanish version of the SAT or do we wait for the inevitable whining about how the SAT is an unfair exam because it is in a "foreign" language, English? What if other groups of people decide they do not want to speak English and would prefer that public schools be taught in their native tongues? If the U.S. is going to teach classes in a language other than English, why Spanish? If we believe what some economists project about the 21st century being the century of China, why not Chinese?

The de facto official language of the U.S. is English. I think it is time to make English the de jure official language of the U.S.

When it comes to the language spoken in U.S. public schools, I hope that it stays English and never does change so long as the U.S. exists as a sovereign nation.

My own view is that by high school graduation in the US, every student should have fluency in at least two languages, one being English. In California, the second language should be Spanish because half of the state's population now speaks Spanish fluently.

In Watsonville, California, where my mother and brother live, most of the town speaks Spanish fluently. And Spanish, just like English, is the language of business there. Every bank teller in Watsonville speaks Spanish fluently. To me, that is a big plus for living in Watsonville. (The community is an incubator for learning Spanish or English.)

As far as the idea of an "official language", I think that idea is un-American. Whatever the Republican Party may think, the founders of America never made English "the official language" of the nation.

America and the world speak English because it is the language of business in the world, and English is very user-friendly. Even if English is spoken incorrectly, the meaning of the communication is still clear. Almost every sentence in English begins with a subject, then the sentence continues to the verb, then it ends with an object: the formate is SVO for subject, verb, object. So English is easy to use, for everyone, native English speaker or not.

The subject is a noun or pronoun, the verb comes after, then put the direct or indirect objects in (noun or pronouns) at the end. This basic format makes English easy to use.

Spanish is easy to learn because 60% of Spanish words are cognates of English words. Only the conjugations of verbs and verb phrases are difficult in Spanish, but these can be simplified for people learning Spanish.

Having trouble with learning Spanish or English? Move to Watsonville, and you will do fine.

[iyamwutiam]

Re: Beverly Hillbillies told to git

As I stated above, I think most Americans would benefit from learning a foreign language and I support (actually, I strongly support) the teaching of foreign languages in a public school system. I do not, however, believe that the primary language used in teaching in the U.S. should be anything but English.

Furthermore, the U.S. has changed a lot since those days you reference in Wisconsin. Those students who only spoke Swedish and could not speak English could not (would not?) subsequently sue if they somehow couldn't get admitted into the better universities.

What my opinion boils down to is this: if I'm going to be paying taxes for something, I want to minimize my liability. I sure as heck do not want to pay additional taxes to hire specialized staff to teach a non-standard curriculum (such as having all classes taught in a language other than English) only to have the beneficiaries of such a program (the students) force me to pay even more taxes down the line when they discover that not being fluent in English precludes them from getting into the better universities and many of the better jobs in this country.

Is that so unreasonable? Should I go to a country, e.g. France, demand that the public schools I attend be taught in Chinese, and then sue the French government when I cannot get into the Sorbonne because I can barely speak a word of French?

You speak in riddles- first you say that you don't want 'students' to sue you if they can't get into a good University because they have been taught in Spanish the whole time- you have any precedents of this actually happening in the US? I paying a high school coach for Tennis or Golf -necessary and a good use of tax dollars -even footabll and basketball or fencing -last I checked -they were NOT in the curriculum that my school handed out.

Sorbonne is a COLLEGE - and I am sure there are many french, arabs, spanish, chinese and Indians who go to Harvard -and speak english. I really am trying to understand your antipathy. Also would you mind tellig me which public school is being supported that allows spanish only -and if they do -do they also support schools to teach exclusively in Hebrew and Yiddish . I know this is true in NYC -but not sure where you are.

[Milton Kuo]

Re: Beverly Hillbillies told to git

You speak in riddles- first you say that you don't want 'students' to sue you if they can't get into a good University because they have been taught in Spanish the whole time- you have any precedents of this actually happening in the US? I paying a high school coach for Tennis or Golf -necessary and a good use of tax dollars -even footabll and basketball or fencing -last I checked -they were NOT in the curriculum that my school handed out.

The hypothethical students will not sue me personally; they will instead sue the government or a university. As for precedents, there are none that I know of being that classes not being taught in English is not widespread in the U.S. However, look up the various lawsuits that have been filed claiming that the SAT is a culturally-biased exam. Allowing EL-HI to be taught in any arbitrary language is going to end badly.

Tennis, golf, et cetera are electives. The classical core curriculum in the U.S. are the three R's: Reading, wRiting, and aRithmetic. Of those three R's, two are directly related to the language in which they are taught. A person in the U.S. can be lousy at electives such as tennis and golf and still have a decent probability of making a good living for himself. A person who is lousy at the three R's?

I'd rather be lousy at electives than lousy at the three R's.

Sorbonne is a COLLEGE - and I am sure there are many french, arabs, spanish, chinese and Indians who go to Harvard -and speak english. I really am trying to understand your antipathy. Also would you mind tellig me which public school is being supported that allows spanish only -and if they do -do they also support schools to teach exclusively in Hebrew and Yiddish . I know this is true in NYC -but not sure where you are.

I am not arguing that French, Spaniards, et cetera who can speak English as a second language can or cannot go to Harvard. I am arguing that an American who cannot speak English well or at all is going to have difficulty succeeding in this country. Furthermore, the American who cannot speak English because his government allowed and enabled such a thing is likely to seek redress for perceived wrongs due to the highly litigious environment in this country.

A friend volunteers to speak at a public school in his home town. At least for the class to whom he recently presented, no effort was made to teach the small children one word of English. He discovered this when he asked the class a question and no student made any effort to reply. It was then that the teacher told him the children did not know one word of English and no efforts were being made to teach them in English. I do not know if this class was an isolated incident at the school or if it is more pervasive. If these children intend to ultimately go to college/university in the U.S., they are being shortchanged in their primary education. I suspect they will not be allowed to submit TOEFL scores in lieu of the verbal portions of the SAT.

Are you saying that there are schools, funded by taxpayer dollars, in NYC where classes are taught only in Hebrew and Yiddish? Such schools should be privately-funded.

[Milton Kuo]

Re: Beverly Hillbillies told to git

My own view is that by high school graduation in the US, every student should have fluency in at least two languages, one being English. In California, the second language should be Spanish because half of the state's population now speaks Spanish fluently.

We're just going to have to agree to disagree on this matter.

America and the world speak English because it is the language of business in the world, and English is very user-friendly.

I had to comment on this, though. English is not a user-friendly language at all due to all of the exceptions in spelling, verb conjugation, pronunciation, and so on. I seem to recall a joke stating that the official language of Hell is English.

English is the language of business thanks to the back-to-back eras of the British and American economic/military empires.

[BK]

Re: Beverly Hillbillies told to git

Rajiv,

Your Data seems to support my thesis - the range of money spent per pupil adjusted by CPI is $5000-$13000.
The Money is going to teachers and Administrators - that is the bulk of where the Money goes for Schools. Towns and Cities will be declaring bankruptcy in the coming year unless the Feds find a clever mechanism to print money and ship it directly to them.

The truth lies some where between $5,000 - $13,000 - the problem with the pay scales of the East and West Coast is there will be No Way to pay the Pension Benefits in the future.

Look at the States/Cities that are on life support - wages are the Number one factor.

If you can provide me with a list of five teachers that left Teaching in the last ten years (on the East or West Coast) because of wages - I'll be happy to make $200 contribution to the charity of your choice.
You are paying the appropriate salary when there is some turnover in a school district - when you pay too much money you get No turn over and the Cost of running the school district is out of control.

I look forward to seeing the list of the lowly paid School employees who left for greener pastures........my local school district is still raising wages for some school positions - during a recession (probably a depression).

Regards,

[Rajiv]

Re: Beverly Hillbillies told to git

I'll leave that to Starving Steve, since he has the ground level experience with many of the California school districts.

However from my table, it appears that the Western states are at the bottom of the list, and not at the top, where you would appear to put them.

[fallout]

Re: Beverly Hillbillies told to git

As an observation, every law, article, treaty, or other governmental document ever published in US history has been in English. This includes the Constitution and Declaration of Independence, at a time when many in the fledgling republic or its soon to be territories spoke French, Indian, Creole, or Spanish, and some 3/4ths of the population was, themselves, first generation immigrants. Thus I must agree with Milton that English is, in fact, the official language of America in all but formality, and always has been (at least since 1776).
Foreign language skills are important in a global economy (albeit I and many others here suspect globalism as we've known it is already dying), and making efforts to accommodate those who do not speak English yet still need to learn/receive an education is also important (there are even standardized tests available for those whose English is not their primary language). But Milton has a point, at some point immigrants traditionally have learned English, even if at a lesser proficiency, like that perennial relative from the old country who spoke with a heavy accent and stumbled on the occasional term. Failure to encourage the current crop of immigrants to do likewise is a disservice both to them in the long term and to those already here, immigrant and non-immigrant alike, which is why California is in the bilingual snafu it is already in. The only choices available are to either fight the battle or concede defeat. The later is a viable choice, as Canadians can no doubt attest to, but such will permanently balkanize (and I use that term in more than one way) those affected.