Public sector salary vs Private sector

[flintlock]

Re: Public sector salary vs Private sector

Maybe I can add a little about Firemen in Atlanta as one of my best friends is a Fire Chief, his wife a firefighter/ paramedic, another good friend a firefighter/paramedic, a cousin is retired FD due to on the job injury, and my next door neighbor is a Fire Captain. All in metro Atlanta area departments. The starting pay is just that, the start. The benefits are pretty darn good. Lots of paid leave, vacation, etc. Great health care. Pension. Can retire with a small pension after only 20 years. Overtime after 40 hours. Double time for working holidays.

I think all would say they have it pretty darn good and most likely none would say they are underpaid. They love what they do as well. Most have other jobs as their schedule leaves plenty of time for that.( 24 hours on 48 off.) None have considered quitting the department to go full time at the other job as they would be taking a serious pay cut when you consider the benefits. None have college degrees. The only gripes I've ever heard from them were about job conditions, not pay. They are well aware that people are lined up down the street every time an opening comes up. The starting pay is very high considering they don't know jack about what they are doing initially.

That said, I am very glad they are in the positions they are and think they are worth every penny. Especially the officers. As all are sharp as hell and have some pretty amazing abilities. Very cool under pressure. One told me of tugging on a burning person trying to free him from an auto accident as he died right there in front of him. Another does the tough rescues and had to go up on one of those huge construction cranes to bring down a mental case. Guts. Clear thinking in stressful situations. Not the kinds of things that can be bought with an advanced degree but rather a field where experience trumps everything else.

Back on subject. Listing of Federal jobs in Atlanta.
http://jobsearch.usajobs.gov/search....ub=Y&q=Atlanta

A lot are jobs requiring some education past HS. So comparing "average" pay probably is apples to oranges. Some really wild swings in pay for the same job. For example, Equipment specialist, from $40k to 166k!

Does anyone know how many Federal workers we now have in the USA?

[LargoWinch]

Re: More FireFighter Data - Davis California

Regarding the subject at hand:

Runtime: 7min.

[BK]

Re: Public sector salary vs Private sector

Largowinch,

I'm amazed at how many itulip Readers believe Federal related jobs are on par with Private.

There are lots of tremendous benefits on top of the salary, fewer hours, car pooling (most private employees I know can't car pool because they are never sure when their day is over).

I don't want to undermine the fact that there are lots of hard working Federal employees who deserve a decent wage and their talent keeps us safe - but, the Federal Bureaucracy has way over done benefits for many employees.......and its contributing to our ailing Financial system.

[LargoWinch]

Re: Public sector salary vs Private sector

Largowinch,

I'm amazed at how many itulip Readers believe Federal related jobs are on par with Private.

There are lots of tremendous benefits on top of the salary, fewer hours, car pooling (most private employees I know can't car pool because they are never sure when their day is over).

I don't want to undermine the fact that there are lots of hard working Federal employees who deserve a decent wage and their talent keeps us safe - but, the Federal Bureaucracy has way over done benefits for many employees.......and its contributing to our ailing Financial system.

BK, just to be clear; I replied to your post because it was the last one in the thread at the time.

Also, as with all videoclips I post, they are not necessarily reflective of my personal views.


Now, with the above out of the way and given my knowledge and experience of the various levels of Canadian Governments, I must say that I completely agree with your statements as per quoted above.

Case in point; the Province of Ontario just announced today that it is now contemplating the sale of Crown Corporations to cover unprecedented deficits.

[wayiwalk]

Re: Public sector salary vs Private sector

A critical point in the Fed'l vs private sector discussion is the flip side of job security - that is, the difficulty to get rid of someone in the fed'l sector when they are not performing their job well.

In the private sector, at a big company, it will take several months of clear documentation to allow for a proper termination.

In the fed'l sector, I've seen people go on and on and on without adding one iota of value, the epitome of deadwood, in fact, really doing a completely piss poor job, and they continue to be employed by the feds year in year out.

The disparities discussed above overlook that different agencies within the gov't align their job descriptions with the GS- scale differently. With two agenicies I deal with regularly, there is significant pay disparity - where individuals only max out at a "12" (these are college educated, often with an engineering degree for technical tasks) whereas an agency they often work side by side with, at a similar level/function, the "13" is the minimum after about 3 years.

Point is, you've got to be careful in making these comparisons that you're talking apples to apples and oranges to oranges.

An ex-coworker recently started with the fed'l gov't. he was capable, and above average in the private sector, but no superstar. In his words - the advantage of working for the feds is two-fold:

1) You can leave your job at the office. You can work a 40 hr week. Forget consulting 50+ hours/week. Unless you're going after a lead position, nothing more is demanded of you....and in his case, after 2 years of catch up, he's about where he was salary-wise when he left our company.

2) Once in the fed'l system, if you don't f up, you are in the front of the line in consideration for other jobs within and at other fed'l agencies (when appropriate).


Disclosure: When I saw this all heading to the fan about 18 months ago, I tried in vain to get into a few fed'l positions that I felt I was qualified for ( I work at a highly regarded consulting firm, so I don't think I'm chopped liver), as I figured that the fed'l gov't would be the last payer in the house before the lights are turned out.

No interest by the feds whatsoever. I'm not shocked, only disappointed.

On a $/hr basis, I make about 30% less than the fed'l peer/personnel I produce the technical work for.

I wouldn't mind a break - but the tough part is knowing I won't get it in my lifetime.

A good point was raised above - about "private" sector. When you look at how much of our GDP is "private"companies working on gov't contracts these days - I wonder just how much "new value" is being created anymore that isn't directly related to fed'l contracts, state contracts?

[Chris]

Re: Public sector salary vs Private sector

A lesson in how to increase support for your political party...

Triple the pay rise in public sector, official figures show

Public sector workers have been awarded pay rises nearly three times higher than those of private sector employees, official figures indicate.



By Harry Wallop, Consumer Affairs Editor
In last week?s pre-Budget report, Alistair Darling pledged to cap public sector pay increases at 1 per cent Photo: CLARE KENDALL


The Office for National Statistics disclosed that, in the three months to October, state workers received an average annual rise of 2.8 per cent. This was close to triple that seen in the private sector, where pay edged up by 1.1 per cent. Many private employees have been told that their pay will be frozen next year and have had Christmas bonuses withheld.
In addition to the jump in the pay of civil servants and other taxpayer-funded employees, the number of people on the public payroll has risen by almost a million in a decade.


Despite record levels of national debt, 23,000 public jobs were created in the three months to October. There are now 6.09 million state workers — up from 5.19 million 10 years ago. The disparity between public and private sector pay alarmed business leaders, who said that public sector workers could not be shielded from the recession indefinitely.
The public sector is likely to be one of the key battlegrounds in next year’s general election, with both of the main parties promising to get tough on burgeoning costs.
Gordon Brown, who as Chancellor presided over unprecedented growth in government jobs, admitted earlier this month that there was a “culture of excess” in public sector pay.
In last week’s pre-Budget report, Alistair Darling pledged to cap public sector pay increases at 1 per cent. However, these measures will not take effect until 2011.
The ONS figures will intensify pressure on the Treasury to provide more detail of its plans.
The monthly jobs data released by the ONS also showed that:
* The number of workers forced to work part-time because they could not find a full-time job climbed above the one million mark for the first time since records began. The total number of part-time workers stood at 7.7 million, also a record.
* Youth unemployment hit a new record, with close to a million 16 to 24 year-olds out of work.
* The overall jobless total rose by 21,000 between August and October to 2.49  million. However, this was the smallest increase in nearly two years.
* The number of people claiming unemployment benefit dropped by 6,300 in November to 1.63 million, the first fall since February 2008.
The slowdown in the growth of unemployment and the drop in benefit claimants led many economists to say that the overall figures were encouraging.
But the Conservatives said that the figures on public sector pay showed up Mr Brown’s pledge for “smarter government” to be a myth.
In addition to substantial workplace benefits, such as final salary pensions, public sector workers are now paid, on average, £23,648 — £1,200 more a year than their private sector counterparts.
Theresa May, the shadow work and pensions secretary, said: “It is important to protect key front line jobs such as doctors and nurses.
“However, it is remarkable that, just a week after Gordon Brown talked about smarter government, that pledge, like many of his others, has been exposed as an utter sham.”
The number of state jobs increased by 0.4 per cent over the past three months, compared with an increase of 0.1 per cent in the private sector.
This is the first time that the number private sector jobs has increased for 18 months — a period that has seen the size of the public sector payroll steadily increase.
The largest increase in jobs came in the NHS, the Armed Forces and in job centres.
The majority of new posts were in central government, however. Local councils, in contrast, started to trim their budgets and laid off dinner ladies, bin men and librarians.
David Frost, the director general of the British Chambers of Commerce, said: “Thanks to business, which has made herculean efforts to keep and train their staff during the worst recession in decades, these unemployment figures are lower than expected.”
But he stressed: “It’s now time for the public sector to step up by ensuring that its pay settlements reflect conditions in the real world.
"We cannot have a position where public sector pay increases are running at around double the rate of the wealth-creating private sector.”
Corin Taylor, a senior policy adviser at the Institute of Directors, said: “Just as the private sector recession is starting to turn a corner, the public sector recession has yet to begin.
"Businesses have had to face reality over the past year and the Government will have to as well.”

[*T*]

Re: Public sector salary vs Private sector - BLSGOV

Public Unions have our Republic by the short hairs and they won't be kicking anything back until the "Funding Crisis hits" and the system breaks.

Perhaps higher wages would have done your republic some good. Maybe people would have had something left to spend, then.

Germany has very strong unions and appears to have maintained its industrial base. It remains competitive. Similarly France.

[BK]

Re: Public sector salary vs Private sector

Thanks for the data for Atlanta Fire personnel.

Again, these Fire Fighter do a tremendous job and I'd want the best/brightest/toughest if I'd in a jam. But, if you multiply the benefits offered for these sorts of jobs in the government and multiply it by all the Cities/Towns in the USA you understand why so many Municipal Governments are one recession/depression away from Bankruptcy.

Imagine running a business of 20-30 people where you over pay everyone by 7-10% - you wouldn't be in Business very long because you'd run out of money.Republics with Democratically elected leaders notoriously over pay Public safety - politicians can't risk being connected with any one getting hurt.

The only thing that will correct these imbalances is when Municipal Governements begin to declare bankruptcy and then they can renegotiate. Unless of course the Feds print enough money to cover every Government job in the USA - would that lead to Gold going to the MOON.

[flintlock]

Re: Public sector salary vs Private sector

I agree completely.

[fallout]

Re: Public sector salary vs Private sector

Sounds more like encouraging a race to the bottom, actually. Have food, energy, tuition, transportation, healthcare, or any other "essential" prices fallen dramatically in this recession? Or aggregate over the last 5 years? 10 years? 20 years? 30 years?
The truth of the matter is twofold:

1) Yes, private sector salary and benefits are now (and for several years at least) falling behind those in public sector, across the board. I give BK. As the teenagers here would say, "governement job = Win!, private sector job = Fail." Perhaps soon all US citizens will work for the US government.

2) This is primarily due to the fact that virtually all job growth, at least since 2000 (for which I have data, probably for some time prior to that), has been in low paying, low skill, low education requirement service sector jobs for the private sector, and high paying (overpaid?) government jobs. Both Dem. Robert Reich (former US Sec. of Labor) and Rep. Paul Craig Roberts (former Asst. Sec. of Treasury), among others (Forbes, etc), have covered this in articles with facts and cites to back them up, primarily railing on the "there are no jobs for college grads" issue, one that has been addressed on this forum previously (i.e. requiring college degrees and commensurate debt for bank teller positions, quite absurd). As a result, the "good paying" jobs are increasingly in government, which is expanding in a manner that would impress Keynes, and the private sector jobs are increasingly crappy, lowpaying, low job security positions in the burgeoning areas of tanning salons, auto title pawn, tattoo parlors, cell phone sales, landscaping, construction (for a time at least) and similar "growth" industries, when they can be found at all, while formerly well paying positions in manufacturing, IT, and others have been outsourced, offshored, or simply eliminated. At least here in the US, I appologize to our non-US readers for my US-centric focus.

[fallout]

Re: Public sector salary vs Private sector

As a side note, that is almost exactly what happened in the Soviet Union. The rouble continued to be devalued to the point that public sector paychecks no longer bought a loaf of bread. That is, when those civil servants were paid at all, which often did not occur for months at a time. Oddly enough, most remained on the job even without pay (or meaningful pay), the trains still ran, electric grids remained up, fires were still put out. This behavior, however, may be unique to the post-Soviet experience.

[wayiwalk]

Re: Public sector salary vs Private sector

When you consider the growth (# and payscale) in the public sector jobs in the face of declining revenues, one is reminded of EJ's comments in the most recent article that (and I'm paraphrasing), "the powers that be will not go down without a fight"

They're just getting their troops on board right now.....:rolleyes:

[MulaMan]

Re: Public sector salary vs Private sector

I would say it has MORE to do with benefits than base salary.

In America, there is a 2 class system for labor, there are 2 sets of labor laws.

1. Those that apply to government employees.
2. Those that apply to corporate employees.

The issue is the unfairness in the labor markets - public vs. private.

Public labor is given all types of labor protections and benefits by laws passed by OUR ELECTED OFFICIALS (this is NOT the same as a legal labor Union) while private labor has NOT RECIEVED any of these same protections.

I believe in counties such as Germany, France, Canada, ... public employees DO NOT get as many special benefits and rights but they are rolled out to all citizens (all or none).

If public employees get health care then all citizens do, if public employees get 2X overtime then there is a Federal law that ALL employers are required to pay 2X overtime, ect...

The solution is to level the playing field.

a) Roll out all protections, laws, benefits the public sector recieves to the private sector.

b) Privatize the public sector.

I believe what should happend is public employees should lose many benefits, protections and private labor should gain some until the public and private labor markets are more equitable.

If anything the private labor market should be much more lucrative, with greater benefits, and greater legal protections then the public market. This is so government employees are those that truely WANT TO SERVE in a public role and are not just looking for a free ride on US taxpayers.

Yes there are Private Sector Fireman - and they work for FREE - and they are EQUALLY DEDICATED AND TRAINED TO SERVE!

http://hvfd.com/

[BK]

Re: Public sector salary vs Private sector

I agree whole heartily with your posting.

The Public Sector Voting block (and all their relatives) will fight this to the bitter end (Municipal bankruptcy ). Until Cities and Towns are bankrupt the labor Unions will be willing to do the right thing to preserve their position in the flow of Cash.

[MulaMan]

Re: Public sector salary vs Private sector

I know you guys don't agree with Mr. Deflation - but he has a good post today on public vs. private: e-mails from a Cop and a DOD employee.

http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/

There is also a link to a very report on Federal employees that simply go AWOL, do not show up to work....oh I mean they are tele-commuting.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...082803271.html