Corporatists vs. Capitalists

[LargoWinch]

Oligarchy re-defined?

...

Capitalists believe in choice, free markets and competition. Corporatists believe in the opposite. They don't want any competition at all. They want to eliminate the competition using their power, their entrenched position and usually the politicians they've purchased. They want to capture the system and use it only for their benefit.

...


Full Article Here.

[Sharky]

Re: Corporatists vs. Capitalists

Nice article. However, the author misses the opportunity to introduce another misunderstood word: fascism -- which is what happens when corporatists have undue influence over government.

[MulaMan]

Re: Corporatists vs. Capitalists

What really bothers me is that tax payer subsidized MBA schools teach this "corporatism".

The entire structure of a Wharton or Columbia MBA programs is to launch you up the pyramid scheme and is 100% intertwined with the efforts to destroy capitalism in America.

I once considered attending Columbia in NYC but the place disgusted me, and most of the people attending, at least the MBA program and what they "teach" people there.

Take a look at the courses in thier MBA program, Wharton as well, and it is a lesson plan on hoq to become a Fascist.

The first pre-requisite for "tier 1" MBA schools is to have read and studied Ann Rand's how to become a fascist novels.

It would be nice to find and recognize MBA programs that still teach capitalism.

[jtabeb]

Re: Corporatists vs. Capitalists

The first pre-requisite for "tier 1" MBA schools is to have read and studied Ann Rand's how to become a fascist novels.

I've actually read her books and "fascist" or "fascist how to, for the beginner" are not descriptors that I would use to characterize her work.

If anything, the works would be more appropriately labled "anti-fascist" or anti-corporatist.

The description of the "Moochers" in Atlas Shrugged is a dead ringer for the type of crony-corpro-fascists that you see dominating the world today.

I'll give you a hint, they are NOT portrayed in a positive light.

(Are you sure you've read any of these books?)

[Sharky]

Re: Corporatists vs. Capitalists

The first pre-requisite for "tier 1" MBA schools is to have read and studied Ann Rand's how to become a fascist novels.

I'm afraid you have Rand confused with someone else. Here's a quote from her about fascism:

I have stated repeatedly that the trend in this country is toward a fascist system with communist slogans. But what all of today’s pressure groups are busy evading is the fact that neither business nor labor nor anyone else, except the ruling clique, gains anything under fascism or communism or any form of statism—that all become victims of an impartial, egalitarian destruction.

And here's another about capitalism:

In a capitalist society, all human relationships are voluntary. Men are free to cooperate or not, to deal with one another or not, as their own individual judgments, convictions, and interests dictate. They can deal with one another only in terms of and by means of reason, i.e., by means of discussion, persuasion, and contractual agreement, by voluntary choice to mutual benefit. The right to agree with others is not a problem in any society; it is the right to disagree that is crucial. It is the institution of private property that protects and implements the right to disagree—and thus keeps the road open to man’s most valuable attribute (valuable personally, socially, and objectively): the creative mind.

[Shakespear]

Re: Corporatists vs. Capitalists

Somehow seeing the photo of Rand at the session of the House Un-American Activities Committee in 1947 just doesn't convince me that she understood what was the full spectrum of danger to US ideals. Well she understood the world as she experienced it, which doesn't mean she had best understanding of it.

Clever talker,bigger than life image caused people to fawn over her and not think deeper about what she was saying. That has been going on for thousands of years and will continue to happen. For someone with little life experience or wrong life experience would not be in a position to seriously challenge her. Again, Image wins. You don't have the image, unlikely that anyone will listen to you even if you are right (Brooksley Born)

Her profile also reminds me of Greenspan the Wizard, he just couldn't be wrong All who argued against his views were just ignored. The recent Frontline about documentry nicely shows this.

[Sharky]

Re: Corporatists vs. Capitalists

Somehow seeing the photo of Rand at the session of the House Un-American Activities Committee in 1947 just doesn't convince me that she understood what was the full spectrum of danger to US ideals. Well she understood the world as she experienced it, which doesn't mean she had best understanding of it.

Who knows. She certainly understood it better than most.

I found her testimony at the hearing to be interesting:

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Ayn_Ra...can_Activities

Here's one notable quote:

I don't believe the American people should ever be told any lies, publicly or privately. I don't believe that lies are practical.

Clever talker,bigger than life image caused people to fawn over her and not think deeper about what she was saying. That has been going on for thousands of years and will continue to happen. For someone with little life experience or wrong life experience would not be in a position to seriously challenge her. Again, Image wins. You don't have the image, unlikely that anyone will listen to you even if you are right (Brooksley Born)

My impression is that most of the politicians and others in power that she spoke to didn't agree with her at all. They didn't think deeper about the issues because what they saw on the surface scared them to death: freedom, honesty, virtue, principles, morals -- the opposites of how the entrenched system operates.

[Serge_Tomiko]

Re: Corporatists vs. Capitalists

Nice article. However, the author misses the opportunity to introduce another misunderstood word: fascism -- which is what happens when corporatists have undue influence over government.

This is also sort of a response to MulaMan.

Corporatism, in the use of the word in Italian Fascism, is not related to the Anglo-American legal concept of a corporation.

The root word of Corporatism is "body" or corpus. The idea is that government should be organized in the same was as the body, with each organ having a separate an independent function, which ultimately creates a functioning state.

While the events of the depression made the realization of this political process impossible, it is important to remember that the concept of the "dictator" was a direct borrowing of that office from Roman times. It was intended to be a temporary position.

In time, what Oswald Mosley termed an "occupational franchise" was to replace popular democracy. Rather than society being stratified along geographic lines, each occupational group would elect what ideally should be the best representation of their craft or specialty.

Discussing the benefits of this system is beyond the scope of this post - but imagine what our government could be like if lawyers were represented by a single senator rather than all of them. Not only would such a system likely increase citizen participation in governance, it would eliminate corruption as no one economic segment could achieve dominance of the government. Certainly, brazen corruption like the President appointing Goldman Sachs employees to a wide variety of executive posts would no longer be possible. The various bureaucratic agencies would instead be distributed to those elected by their respective industry.

The point is that we live in a unique time. Pejorative labels do no one any good. The old ways have failed us. Certainly, the US Constitution is the most dismal failure. No one would have died to create the sick society in which we live today. Could you imagine a free man being asked to sacrifice his life so that his great-great-grandchildren could be born into debt slavery for a usurious oligarchy? A world where far too many men must stand back in despair as their daughters become whores? A lifetime of indoctrination by a corrupt educational and entertainment system?

Despite all the flaws of fascism - those nations demonstrated something clearly amiss in the materialist, internationalist world: courage - that characteristic that was in the words of Cicero the defining element of masculinity. You had a few small countries with limited natural resources that were willing to fight against the combined forces of the British Empire, the Soviet Union, and the United States - an alliance that controlled most of the world.

For what are people willing to die today? Free healthcare? Continued access to MTV? Endless bestial fornication? An unlimited supply of twinkies?

Democracy is at this point finished. Democracy always descends into plutocracy. What happens after that is the bigger question. Much can be learned from the brief fascist era, just as much can be learned from Plato, who witnessed first hand how the democratic mob executed one of the greatest thinkers to have ever walked the earth. The ruling class of the West knows their time is up. Our time is better spent learning from the past and preparing for the future - a future without democracy and without a plutocratic oligarchy.

[unlucky]

Re: Corporatists vs. Capitalists

The point is that we live in a unique time. Pejorative labels do no one any good. The old ways have failed us. Certainly, the US Constitution is the most dismal failure.

A provocative, and thought-provoking, point-of-view Serge. We have to keep in mind though that western democracies have faced grave crises and hardships before, and overcome them. It isn't neccessarily the case that democracy always produces indolence and corruption, and is incapable of producing courage.

The "rentiers" have been beaten back before, but now they are back in a new manifestation. (And I would include fascists in the class of "rentiers" by the way - those who seek to appropriate by force the wealth earned from the honest toil of others). But the rise of the FIRE oligarchy, at least in its present form, is still a relatively recent phenomenon. Let's not give up hope on democracy just yet.

[lsa420]

Re: Corporatists vs. Capitalists

Democracy is at this point finished. Democracy always descends into plutocracy. What happens after that is the bigger question. Much can be learned from the brief fascist era, just as much can be learned from Plato, who witnessed first hand how the democratic mob executed one of the greatest thinkers to have ever walked the earth. The ruling class of the West knows their time is up. Our time is better spent learning from the past and preparing for the future - a future without democracy and without a plutocratic oligarchy.

"In questions of power, then, let no more be heard of confidence in man, but bind him down from mischief by the chains of the Constitution." - Thomas Jefferson

I pretty much agree with you Serge, especially the inevitability of democracy turning into mob rule and eventually resulting in chaos. Isn't this precisely why the U.S. is not a democracy, but a Constitutional Republic? Unfortunately we have not learned from the past and have not listened to the advice of the founders. Instead the government has done everything in its power to undermine the Constitution that was created to restrain government tyranny and protect individual liberty. If we had simply followed the Constitution, we would NOT be in the current situation. This is not a failure of the Constitution, but a failure of corrupt men and big government. The wise and powerful destroyed the Constitution long ago.

[rjwjr]

Re: Corporatists vs. Capitalists

"In questions of power, then, let no more be heard of confidence in man, but bind him down from mischief by the chains of the Constitution." - Thomas Jefferson

I pretty much agree with you Serge, especially the inevitability of democracy turning into mob rule and eventually resulting in chaos. Isn't this precisely why the U.S. is not a democracy, but a Constitutional Republic? Unfortunately we have not learned from the past and have not listened to the advice of the founders. Instead the government has done everything in its power to undermine the Constitution that was created to restrain government tyranny and protect individual liberty. If we had simply followed the Constitution, we would NOT be in the current situation. This is not a failure of the Constitution, but a failure of corrupt men and big government. The wise and powerful destroyed the Constitution long ago.

Are you by chance running for office in 2012? So far, you have my vote.

[lsa420]

Re: Corporatists vs. Capitalists

Are you by chance running for office in 2012? So far, you have my vote.

Haha. I don't have any plans, but if that changes I'll let you know. I do appreciate your "vote" in any case.

[jiimbergin]

Re: Corporatists vs. Capitalists

OK this site is getting full of America Bashers lest we forget what America's Republic, Democracy, Freedom, Liberty and Democratic Society has given the world in Chronological Order:

Lightning Rod
Submarine
Cotton Gin
Interchangeable Parts
Steam Powered Pump Stations
Coffe Pot
Steam Boat
Plough
Sewing Machine
Power Tools
Anesthesia
Telegraph
Vulcanized Rubber
Elevator
Oil Well
Oil Pipe Line
Typewriter
Structural Steel Bridges
Telephones
Phonographs
Light Bulbs
Hearing Aides
Electric Fans
Skyscrapers
Kodak Cameras
Dishwashers
Escalators
Gasoline Powered Cars
Zippers
Air Conditioning
Radio Broadcasts
Model T Mass Production
Radio Astronomy
Digital Computer
Atomic Reactor
Polio Vacinne
Lasers
Mini Computers
Optical Fiber
Super Computers
Space Shutle
Personel Computer
Genetic Engineering
Internet
GPS

Etc. Etc.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/telepho..._timeline.html

Imagine a world without America for a minute. Imagine Europe having to pay for its own defense. You think they could afford the current entitlements and having to pay a real Army, Navy, Air Force and Marines to protect the open plains in the East. You think 10% cronic unemployment is a problem now what if they had to fully fund defense what would the taxes look like then? Poland Occupied. Germany still divided where would Europes industrial production come from? No American stabilizing presence in Asia Japan, Korea and China all fighting as they have been for centuries before the end of WWII. No American Naval Presence to keep sea lanes open. No Oil because the Middle east is a shambles with Shite, Shia, Persian and Israeli constantly fighting for territory? Sure we have our problems now we will get through them like we always do with hard work, inginuity and persistance multiplied with freedom and liberty. One day I hope we leave Asia, Europe and the Middle East to fend for themselves. Right after we complete missle defense. Europe can deal with Iran then. We will prepare to be back in 10-15 years cleaning up the mess they always end up making for themselves.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/deploy.htm

Thanks for reminding us

[aaron]

Re: Corporatists vs. Capitalists

OK this site is getting full of America Bashers lest we forget what America's Republic, Democracy, Freedom, Liberty and Democratic Society has given

American no longer has these things. That is why this "basher" despairs.

[0tr]

Re: Corporatists vs. Capitalists

OK this site is getting full of America Bashers lest we forget what America's Republic, Democracy, Freedom, Liberty and Democratic Society has given the world in Chronological Order:

Lightning Rod
Submarine
(omitted for brevity)
GPS

Etc. Etc.

And one more, one of my favorites, from Wikipedia: the triple effect evaporator, used in sugar refining,

"Norbert Rillieux (March 17, 1806 – October 8, 1894), an American inventor and engineer, is most noted for his invention of the multiple-effect evaporator, an energy-efficient means of evaporating water. This invention was an important development in the growth of the sugar industry. Rillieux was a cousin of the painter Edgar Degas."

Unfortunately, he lost the rights to his patent.

Just like what happened to so many other inventors.

Oh, yah, and other faves; FM radio, and the Browning M2. Invented almost a century ago, and still essentially a pinnacle of machinery/technology in its field.

And RDX. Spectacular. Unsurpassed.