Everyone Knew that Iraq Didn't Have WMDs

[0tr]

Re: Everyone Knew that Iraq Didn't Have WMDs

I thought it was clear that the UN inspectors were coming up empty, no wmd, time after time.

The inspectors had unfettered access.

That is, what we knew was, that at a lot of sites, there was nothing. They were not finding anything significant. The process was working. There was plenty of factual inspection data. My position was, let the inspections continue, keep looking. Lots cheaper, and it was actually working. The Iraqi regime was pinned to the mat. It would have been lots cheaper in human lives if the process were allowed to continue, keep the inspections going.

[coolhand]

Re: Everyone Knew that Iraq Didn't Have WMDs

why doesn't anyone ask why, probe a little deeper, why we went after Iraq?

Read EJ's "Peak Cheap Oil I & II." Then ask yourself, if we invaded Iraq under false pretenses, is it more likely because:

a) The US has all of a sudden turned evil, or

b) Peak Oil got here sooner than expected, & while in the academic world it is possible to talk about conservation, rationing & substitution amongst all nations of the world, in the real world, those actions, in the short to intermediate run, would come down to deciding which nation's poor people were going to starve to death.

This is still the uncomfortable discussion most bears still don't want to have, but that EJ, & Andy Lees, in his free 91-page book "The Right Game", allude to: As it stands now, barring some massive new, cheap, renewable energy source that has an EROIE the same or greater than fossil fuels, you cannot sustain for very long a situation where energy supplies shrink but population & the economy grow...

[MulaMan]

Re: Everyone Knew that Iraq Didn't Have WMDs

Now I am of a Ron Paul/stay out of foreign entanglements philosophy.

This is exactly the solution. The reason it is appropriate to bash Bush, and lock him up forever, is because he was PRESIDENT and hence accountable, not just some dumbass. Look up the meaning of accountable.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accountability

He directly took the country into Iraq. PERIOD.

Second the reason it IS appropriate to bash Republicans is that at this point in history the threat is from FASCISM - CORPORATISM - use whatever term you like. The threat is NOT from the left.

The THREAT IN AMERICA IS FROM THE FAR RIGHT.

Americans have been fighting the FAR RIGHT for years and being bashed as "liberals" which is a complete joke.

Threats come from both radical left and radical right - America is being destroyed by the radical right.

Read up on Fascism:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

[iyamwutiam]

Re: Everyone Knew that Iraq Didn't Have WMDs

Episode 1 Dictator 'suddenly' invades adjoining country (Kuwait) because he 'claims' it was his country in the first place (although once true -so what right?!). Dictator and army dismantled in record 15 days with mass surrender!!

So what happens -we let Dictator go ! And viola -you have huge military bases in Abu Dhabi and Kuwait - so American troops can protect these countries against the very dictator they just destroyed and let return?

I mean there are just so many loopholes and patent distortion of facts -that like the Mark Twain quote-as if people didn't know the motives or that the whole thing was fabricated -they simply were not paying attention or I guess perversely eagerly indoctrinating themselves to the whatever the greek chorus chants.

Now days -you don't have to prove a conspiracy -its right out there as plain as day. But the orwellian trick of constantly being at war with so 'many' nations and other creative uses of 'shock' doctrine -its a wonder people can think straight.

[Crazyfingers]

Re: Everyone Knew that Iraq Didn't Have WMDs

Mark Twain understood the battle and with humor/satire tried to inform the public.

Every civilization carries the seeds of its own destruction, and the same cycle shows in them all. The Republic is born, flourishes, decays into plutocracy, and is captured by the shoemaker whom the mercenaries and millionaires make into a king. The people invent their oppressors, and the oppressors serve the function for which they are invented.
Mark Twain

How spooky is that?

[Shakespear]

Re: Everyone Knew that Iraq Didn't Have WMDs

he was PRESIDENT and hence accountable

This is the Key to the whole debate, where is in Accountability. Not just Bush mind you.

I saw last night the film "Mongol" by Bodrove. Ganghis Khan, seeing that his culture was coming apart as the age old rules were broken decided to take leadership and change things. At great risk to himself for sure. Once he took control he made the laws that were "fit for his people". Simple and direct.

1) Don't kill children - or you will die
2) Pay your debt - or you will die
3) Be loyal to your khan - or you will die
4) Steal - and you will die
5) The Mongols did not torture, mutilate or maim (but their enemies did)
etc.

I am sure the movie idealizes a lot BUT his Empire was the largest ever and lasted the longest. Until those simple rules started to be broken that is !!!!

It takes simple and direct rules to stabilize a society. The lines need to be clear and not different for different "casts". Once you allow different treatment it is the beginning of the end. History shows this over and over again.

[cindykimlisa]

Re: Everyone Knew that Iraq Didn't Have WMDs

Everyone Knew that Iraq Didn't Have WMDs

I am putting this in the news section as opposed to "Rant and Rave" because I believe that this needs to be discussed -- as to how we the people in the US are manipulated into supporting wrong -- I would go so far as to say evil - policies -- If we as a group do not discuss this honestly, and become fragmented over political partisanship and bickering, then we as a group deserve all that is coming down the pike at us,

This is a blog post from Washington's blog, and I am posting it in full.



And please do click on the last this is why.

The issue is not WMD

The issue is: Both Bushes were idiots when it comes to war!

Or were they? Maybe it had something to do with increasing the Texas family business profits - As Jed Clampet would say "Black Gold!"

Cindy

[fallout]

Re: Everyone Knew that Iraq Didn't Have WMDs

Allow me to draw further attention to the Energy Task Force, lead by Mr. Cheney, who's findings remain a closely guarded secret. Dr. Robert Hirsch, author of the Hirsch Report, has previously indicated that it is likely that this was, in effect, a peak-oil working group, especially given the later acknowledgements by both Chevron and BP (both of who had representatives on the task force) regarding peak cheap oil.

Seems likely that the need to find replacement petroleum somewhere was high on the national energy policy to-do list.

[Raz]

Re: Everyone Knew that Iraq Didn't Have WMDs

And I wasnt interested in another "Oh goodness, here's another one of those silly Iraq debates that brings out the kooks, nothing to see here, moving right along, moving to Rant and Rave because no one cares *yawn*" style threads.

Valid point. Now be nice to each other, boys.

Except for oil companies, the defense industry, 24 hour news media, and the entire military-industrial complex. The profit margin difference for private contractors in Iraq versus the regular military is drastic. It's amazing that most people do not realize that a significant cost of this war goes to private businesses performing most of the same functions as the military. The real soldiers fighting in Iraq are just there to give an official face to what amounts to nothing more than the fascist imperialistic capture of the United States government by the financial elite that use force to continue the financial dominance of the entire world.

I agree with you. And when the thought of all this doesn't send me into a foaming rage,
it gives me a sick feeling that I'm watching the end of our republic.

http://jessescrossroadscafe.blogspot...-republic.html

[gnk]

Re: Everyone Knew that Iraq Didn't Have WMDs

Allow me to draw further attention to the Energy Task Force, lead by Mr. Cheney, who's findings remain a closely guarded secret. Dr. Robert Hirsch, author of the Hirsch Report, has previously indicated that it is likely that this was, in effect, a peak-oil working group, especially given the later acknowledgements by both Chevron and BP (both of who had representatives on the task force) regarding peak cheap oil.

Seems likely that the need to find replacement petroleum somewhere was high on the national energy policy to-do list.

I agree. I quoted from Cheney's 1999 speech to the London Petroleum Institute in a post below.

Keep in mind that Matthew Simmons of Simmons Co was also involved in that task force. He is probably the most vocal Peak Oilist amongst the elites. He believes that it is very likely that Saudi Arabia has peaked already.

And it is much more than just peak oil. Remember in 1999-2000 the weels were coming off the tech rally and many corporations were caught being creative with the books. Our economy was not as strong as people thought. Adding Iraq's underutilized oil to the global market would also depress oil prices. Such a downward price action is basically a tax cut for the consumer - the US consumer in particular which promotes discretionary spending.

Obviously it didn't happen but they thought it was worth a shot. Another benefit to being in Iraq: China gets to drill in Iraq with our "protection." Which is one way to ingratiate yourself to your creditor. They feel like they get something out of buying our debt.

[ASH]

Re: Everyone Knew that Iraq Didn't Have WMDs

Just curious, how would you fabricate WMD? Fabricating the doubt/fear that they were there was easy. Slipping some real ones in would be mind boggling, with less than a 1 % chance of success.

That's a fair criticism. I normally dispute the majority of conspiracy theories on the grounds that they are impractical to execute and keep secret, so it is a bit inconsistent for me to assume that the Bush Administration could have faked WMD. It is an effective argument against the conspiracy-minded who believe 'they' can do anything, but it is a weaker argument against those who suspect something more banal.

However, if I were to do it, I would demolish some remote Iraqi sites from the air during the bombardment and send the wrong type of military team briefly to the sites to collect samples from the rubble. In other words, I'd send troops in MOPP gear, but I wouldn't send troops specifically trained in WMD, so that they would not themselves be qualified or instrumented to detect chemical agents. Then I'd have the samples sent to a small 'weapons inspection' team run out of the White House to 'analyze' the samples and find traces of whatever was politically convenient... and I'd classify everything associated with the samples and their analysis. Subsequently, I'd loudly announce that evidence of WMD had been found in the rubble of suspected WMD sites, and simultaneously keep everyone away from the sites for years "until the security situation has been resolved". This wouldn't be convincing to doubters, but it only has to be convincing to those who wish to be convinced. It doesn't require any more conspiracy than the fabrications alleged in the article that Rajiv posted -- it just requires that the 'weapons inspection team' run from the White House be conspirators; not J. Random Grunt.

My beef with the article is that it asks us to believe that the Bush Administration would base its entire case for the war on something it knew was a lie, without making any effort to prevent the lie from being discovered, and without any strategy for what to do when the lie was discovered. It asks us to believe that the Bush Administration would fabricate 'evidence' to push for war, yet allow itself to be rendered politically ineffectual after the invasion for want of evidence that could also be falsified. Again, I don't see Machiavellian geniuses at work here -- I see ideology, hubris, and the same sort of political lying that promises we will all get our old age pensions.

[thunderdownunder]

Re: Everyone Knew that Iraq Didn't Have WMDs

I never believed it. You'd be amazed at how many still do believe it though.

Saddam had to be taken out because he refused to play by the rules set by the U.S. - take a loan from the IMF, let the World Bank and National Endowment for Democracy in through the front door, join the World Trade Association and conduct cross border trade in dollars.

Our leaders didn't want to deal with sanctions and fly zones for another thirty years, waiting out Saddam's death and they wanted a team player in Iraq, like a Karzai. Who was their corrupt-ass point man in Iraq? I know Rajiv will know whose name I can't recall right now.

Yet Donal Rumsfeild was a Bum buddy of Mr Hussain up until he wan't:rolleyes:

I never understood why they didn't take a leaf out of the police force and "plant" some evidence - Dumb bastards - Then even I would have swallowed the pill

[D-Mack]

Re: Everyone Knew that Iraq Didn't Have WMDs

Wasn't it tried ? Don't know if it's true, but wouldn't surprise me.

US tried to plant WMDs, failed: whistleblower

Daily Times Monitor

According to a stunning report posted by a retired Navy Lt Commander and 28-year veteran of the Defense Department (DoD), the Bush administration’s assurance about finding weapons of mass destruction in Iraq was based on a Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) plan to “plant” WMDs inside the country. Nelda Rogers, the Pentagon whistleblower, claims the plan failed when the secret mission was mistakenly taken out by “friendly fire”, the Environmentalists Against War report.

Nelda Rogers is a 28-year veteran debriefer for the DoD. She has become so concerned for her safety that she decided to tell the story about this latest CIA-military fiasco in Iraq. According to Al Martin Raw.com, “Ms Rogers is number two in the chain of command within this DoD special intelligence office. This is a ten-person debriefing unit within the central debriefing office for the Department of Defense.”

The information that is being leaked out is information “obtained while she was in Germany heading up the debriefing of returning service personnel, involved in intelligence work in Iraq for the DoD and/or the CIA. “According to Ms Rogers, there was a covert military operation that took place both preceding and during the hostilities in Iraq,” reports Al Martin Raw.com, an online subscriber-based news/analysis service which provides “Political, Economic and Financial Intelligence”.

..

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default...2-8-2003_pg1_9

[jiimbergin]

Re: Everyone Knew that Iraq Didn't Have WMDs

That's a fair criticism. I normally dispute the majority of conspiracy theories on the grounds that they are impractical to execute and keep secret, so it is a bit inconsistent for me to assume that the Bush Administration could have faked WMD. It is an effective argument against the conspiracy-minded who believe 'they' can do anything, but it is a weaker argument against those who suspect something more banal.

However, if I were to do it, I would demolish some remote Iraqi sites from the air during the bombardment and send the wrong type of military team briefly to the sites to collect samples from the rubble. In other words, I'd send troops in MOPP gear, but I wouldn't send troops specifically trained in WMD, so that they would not themselves be qualified or instrumented to detect chemical agents. Then I'd have the samples sent to a small 'weapons inspection' team run out of the White House to 'analyze' the samples and find traces of whatever was politically convenient... and I'd classify everything associated with the samples and their analysis. Subsequently, I'd loudly announce that evidence of WMD had been found in the rubble of suspected WMD sites, and simultaneously keep everyone away from the sites for years "until the security situation has been resolved". This wouldn't be convincing to doubters, but it only has to be convincing to those who wish to be convinced. It doesn't require any more conspiracy than the fabrications alleged in the article that Rajiv posted -- it just requires that the 'weapons inspection team' run from the White House be conspirators; not J. Random Grunt.

My beef with the article is that it asks us to believe that the Bush Administration would base its entire case for the war on something it knew was a lie, without making any effort to prevent the lie from being discovered, and without any strategy for what to do when the lie was discovered. It asks us to believe that the Bush Administration would fabricate 'evidence' to push for war, yet allow itself to be rendered politically ineffectual after the invasion for want of evidence that could also be falsified. Again, I don't see Machiavellian geniuses at work here -- I see ideology, hubris, and the same sort of political lying that promises we will all get our old age pensions.

Ash, you have stated my view far better than I ever could. Thanks

jim

[Shakespear]

Re: Everyone Knew that Iraq Didn't Have WMDs

This gets better and better with time :rolleyes:

The operating phrase here is "may have come from", but still I suspect this Holloway wouldn't have the guts to say this if he didn't think it was true.

45-minute WMD claim 'may have come from an Iraqi taxi driver' Tory MP and defense specialist Adam Holloway says MI6 got information indirectly from a taxi driver who had heard Iraqi military commanders talking about weapons

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2...md-taxi-driver

I caught a taxi from Heathrow yesterday, and the driver told me he thought George Bush had been working for Al-Qaeda