America IS Bust! (Bloody good read)

[Diarmuid]

Re: America IS Bust! (Bloody good read)

We certainly do have faith. It's the most important thing in my life. But I have not met any of those zombies, you will have to tell me where you found them

Jim what the empiricists / atheists refuse to accept in my opinion, is that faith and belief are intrinsic to the human condition, even if if that faith or belief manifests itself as blind faith in science (because the experts say so), faith in empiricism or the belief that there is nothing beyond our physical existence as perceived by the five senses.

As Plato noted in Theaetetus

Soc. Take a look round, then, and see that none of the uninitiated are listening. Now by the uninitiated I mean: the people who believe in nothing but what they can grasp in their hands, and who will not allow that action or generation or anything invisible can have real existence.

Theaet. Yes, indeed, Socrates, they are very hard and impenetrable mortals.

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: America IS Bust! (Bloody good read)

Jim what the empiricists / atheists refuse to accept in my opinion, is that faith and belief are intrinsic to the human condition

The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in the mind at the same time, and still retain the ability to function.
-- F. Scott Fitzgerald

If intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in the mind at the same time, then perhaps faith is the ability to contemplate that which we are unable to sense or consciously and logically understand.

[BadJuju]

Re: America IS Bust! (Bloody good read)

Jim what the empiricists / atheists refuse to accept in my opinion, is that faith and belief are intrinsic to the human condition, even if if that faith or belief manifests itself as blind faith in science (because the experts say so), faith in empiricism or the belief that there is nothing beyond our physical existence as perceived by the five senses.

As Plato noted in Theaetetus

Except there is a very stark contrast between the two. I could perform the same experiments as the experts and arrive at similar, if not the same, conclusions as they did. And many others have done it. It is called the scientific method. You cannot test something based in faith, whether you are an expert, amateur, or no one in particular.

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: America IS Bust! (Bloody good read)

You cannot test something based in faith,

Yup, agreed. You got a problem with that ?

Let me turn that around the other way. Are you claiming that all that is worth knowing can be tested? If so, I hope you are a young man, so that there might be time for you to learn the folly of your thoughts.

[Diarmuid]

Re: America IS Bust! (Bloody good read)

Except there is a very stark contrast between the two. I could perform the same experiments as the experts and arrive at similar, if not the same, conclusions as they did. And many others have done it. It is called the scientific method. You cannot test something based in faith, whether you are an expert, amateur, or no one in particular.

BadJuju, I was not equating the two or saying either or, I said blind faith, in regard to the scientific method, I am not propagating faith over empiricism or the scientific method, I said faith and belief is intrinsic to the human condition, which means that logic, faith and belief are not separable in my opinion. Science is replete with examples of faith or belief playing a part in the scientific method from the theory of of geocentric orbits to the theory of the ether , the scientific method is not as cut and dry as what you have espoused, It is not merely doing an experiment and getting result A and not B hence A is true, often in complex problems data must be collected and interpreted and it may often be extremely difficult to interpret, one must often try and fit curves and trends over the noise generated by data collection, doing this accurately and without bias takes great skill and years of experience, even so data is still often interpreted differently by different people, hence the divergences in opinion in the scientific community, ones interpretation is often influenced by ones belief what ever they maybe. Science is not devoid of human beings or their emotions or beliefs as much as some would wish or want it to be.

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: America IS Bust! (Bloody good read)

often in complex problems data must be collected and interrupted and it may often be extremely difficult to interrupt

Did you mean interpret, not interrupt?

[Diarmuid]

Re: America IS Bust! (Bloody good read)

Did you mean interpret, not interrupt?

Yes my spell checker automatically changed to so, dyslexia is a bitch even with technology ;-)

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: America IS Bust! (Bloody good read)

Yes my spell checker automatically changed to so, dyslexia is a bitch even with technology ;-)

Perhaps your spell checker is dyslexic ?

[BadJuju]

Re: America IS Bust! (Bloody good read)

Let me turn that around the other way. Are you claiming that all that is worth knowing can be tested? If so, I hope you are a young man, so that there might be time for you to learn the folly of your thoughts.

What is worth knowing beyond the material world and that which we can bring into creation from thought?

Please give me a few examples.

[BadJuju]

Re: America IS Bust! (Bloody good read)

BadJuju, I was not equating the two or saying either or, I said blind faith, in regard to the scientific method, I am not propagating faith over empiricism or the scientific method, I said faith and belief is intrinsic to the human condition, which means that logic, faith and belief are not separable in my opinion. Science is replete with examples of faith or belief playing a part in the scientific method from the theory of of geocentric orbits to the theory of the ether , the scientific method is not as cut and dry as what you have espoused, It is not merely doing an experiment and getting result A and not B hence A is true, often in complex problems data must be collected and interpreted and it may often be extremely difficult to interpret, one must often try and fit curves and trends over the noise generated by data collection, doing this accurately and without bias takes great skill and years of experience, even so data is still often interpreted differently by different people, hence the divergences in opinion in the scientific community, ones interpretation is often influenced by ones belief what ever they maybe. Science is not devoid of human beings or their emotions or beliefs as much as some would wish or want it to be.

Hm, you are correct. I was actually going to edit my statement prior to your post to reflect what you said here, but I decided to let you do the work for me. Ha! :p

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: America IS Bust! (Bloody good read)

You changed the question on me, BadJuju. I said some things worth knowing cannot be tested, and you asked what might be worth knowing, beyond the material world, that cannot be created from thought. Depending on how widely you define "thought", perhaps nothing, perhaps a lot. Whatever ... I do not have a sense that this conversation is leading to further insights.

[BadJuju]

Re: America IS Bust! (Bloody good read)

You changed the question on me, BadJuju. I said some things worth knowing cannot be tested, and you asked what might be worth knowing, beyond the material world, that cannot be created from thought. Depending on how widely you define "thought", perhaps nothing, perhaps a lot. Whatever ... I do not have a sense that this conversation is leading to further insights.

I think you made an assumption, so I broadened the question to reflect my perspective.

[rjwjr]

Re: America IS Bust! (Bloody good read)

I think you made an assumption, so I broadened the question to reflect my perspective.

So you took a leap of faith?! :eek:

[Raz]

Re: America IS Bust! (Bloody good read)

What is worth knowing beyond the material world and that which we can bring into creation from thought?

Please give me a few examples.

Try this on for size. (But the MP3 download will cost you $3.00)

https://store.peoplespharmacy.com/71...31-09-mp3.html

[Diarmuid]

Re: America IS Bust! (Bloody good read)

Try this on for size. (But the MP3 download will cost you $3.00)

https://store.peoplespharmacy.com/71...31-09-mp3.html

Coito ergo sum, Raz

;)