1.5 Million 400 Troy Ounce Fake Tungsten Gold Bars - Goldfinger - A New Take On Operation Grand Slam

[Dr.No]

Use a larger % of tungsten combined with a smaller % of bismuth (which is strongly diamagnetic)

One could perhaps use a larger percentage of tungsten combined with a smaller percentage of bismuth (which is strongly diamagnetic), and - as bismuth is less dense than tungsten and gold - also combine this with a moderate percentage of osmium or iridium (both heavier than tungsten and gold, and significantly cheaper) to achieve the appropriate level of diamagnetism and overall density (have not done the calculations to determine whether this indeed would be achievable - just a thought that crossed my mind when reading your post)?

I believe there are some simple solutions to the gold plated tungsten problem, so probably it is not really a major issue. It is too easily determined without damaging the sample that it is either gold or tungsten inside.

Gold is diamagnetic, so is lightly repelled by a strong magnetic field -- it orients itself to oppose the applied field, like a magnet repelling the same pole of another magnet.

Tungsten is paramagnetic, so would be lightly attracted to a strong applied magnetic field.

So, my guess is that a mirror glued onto a stiff line (a wooden dowel, maybe) with the material under test acting as a mass on a pendulum and a laser reflecting off the mirror onto a distant wall should reveal the attraction or repulsion of the bullion from a very strong magnet. Not a terribly difficult test to conduct and no need even to scratch the surface of the material.

Also, for those deprived of a laser pointer, a patient investigator could chill a sample in the freezer, measure it with a micrometer, warm it up to room temperature, measure it again and compute the coefficient of thermal expansion. Gold would expand roughly three times the length of a similar piece containing tungsten.

Just my .02 worth. I would guess Fort Knox has pretty good means to measure the gold content of anything they still have lying around as do other serious holders of gold. On the other hand, if all you have is a scale and a beaker of water to measure density, you might get fooled.

[grapejelly]

Re: 1.5 Million 400 Troy Ounce Fake Tungsten Gold Bars - Goldfinger - A New Take On Operation Grand

I guess it could be worth it to try to make a simple device to measure paramagnetic vs diamagnetic properties and see if it would sell on eBay. I will bet finding a sample of tungsten adequate to test the device might be a challenge, and a gold plated one all the more so. I also suspect that anybody having a serious responsibility to assure they are buying gold already has lots of tests and the density test is not the only one. Then again, you could cast some jewelry out of tungsten, plate it, put it in an envelope and send it to Ed McMahon to see how much you get. My first thought was to engineer a volume resistivity test with an AC magnetic field to make a magical meter that detects tungsten vs. gold. It seemed too complex but I could see that such a meter would be pretty sexy for the conspiratorial set.

I think the whole issue of gold attracts a lot of conspiracy theories because critical information has been, is, and always will be, unavailable. People who want to manipulate demand are very good at arguing from a lack of data to present all kinds of stories to increase interest. This whole tungsten topic started in 2004 and has had a life of its own since then, I guess.

i believe there are easy tests for this. Like tapping the bar with a stick and listening. There is a unique audio signature that I doubt tungsten can replicate.

Most tungsten is going to be powder, not solid. Solid tungsten is VERY dificult to work.

Audio testing will reveal the fake.

[Dr.No]

Re: How to Make Convincing Fake Gold Bars

http://www.popsci.com/diy/article/20...fake-gold-bars

[Fiat Currency]

Re: How to Make Convincing Fake Gold Bars

http://www.popsci.com/diy/article/20...fake-gold-bars

From your article link ...

The standard gold bar for bank-to-bank trade, known as a "London good delivery bar" weighs 400 troy ounces (over thirty-three pounds), yet is no bigger than a paperback novel. A bar of steel the same size would weigh only thirteen and a half pounds.

Perhaps the author is not the expert that he thinks. :eek:

I wonder where he came up with the extra 6 pounds? He clearly knows they are troy ounces.

[Dr.No]

Re: How to Make Convincing Fake Gold Bars

From your article link ...

Perhaps the author is not the expert that he thinks. :eek:

I wonder where he came up with the extra 6 pounds? He clearly knows they are troy ounces.

He's an author and probably not a precious metals investor. He just wrote about how to make fake gold bars in principle and may well have no clue about troy ounces vs. avoirdupois ounces.

[Rotwang]

Re: 1.5 Million 400 Troy Ounce Fake Tungsten Gold Bars - Goldfinger - A New Take On Operation Grand

A sound velocity meter will readily reveal a fake specimen.
But how many specimens are actually subjected to verification.
The simple steps:
1. Hardness
2. Density
3. Sound Velocity
All non-destructive.
Peddling 400 oz. bars on the metal exchanges, and expecting none to show up in an industrial process over time (jewelery, plating) is asking a lot. They would for sure be found out at the jewelery end when the bar is transmuted into 14k wearables, or used in the plating process as the source metal. Some p.o.ed industrial operator would surely complain, and demand satisfaction.
So it remains to ensure, that tungsten slugs (of whatever weight/size) are not discovered by simple means. Replacing CB storage appears a likely candidate. But you can only do it once. But who's to say a good fake tungsten bar, almost indistinguishable from the real thing in some CB vault is not as good as gold. Actually better, since the it serves the purpose of 'reserves', and the surplussed metal can be put to other uses.
Assaying a 400 oz. bar destructively is not for the faint of heart. It'll cost you.
Since tungsten can be purchased in plate and bar form, making slugs with a tungsten core seems like a reasonable exercise. It should be possible to preheat tungsten plate (close to the melting temperature of gold) support the plates in a mold, and pour gold around them. The idea being that the tungsten would float (in place) when the gold is introduced. Thus a bar, with exterior surface properties of gold could be manufactured. Refiners stamps and serial numbers can be punched (with gold behavior). Hard to say what the yield function in the finished product would be, but I'm guessing easily better than 70%. Plating does approach 100%, but it would be hard to install refiner marks and serial number. But what refiner would like to lend themselves to this process. A clandestine manufacturer of slugs could be non-discriminating and attempt 1:1 forgery of existing bars, provided access to these stored bars can be arranged, a record of weights and visual properties maintained, and a replacement calendar arranged with the custodian of original goods. The real deal is of course to ensure that the tungsten 400 oz. bars never see the light of day. Who provides that kind of storage? Vaults where the product presumably rests forever.

However SOUND VELOCITY of the specimen is a direct give away.

[lb]

Re: 1.5 Million 400 Troy Ounce Fake Tungsten Gold Bars - Goldfinger - A New Take On Operation Grand

Wouldn't passing a current through the bar reveal this instantly?

[ASH]

Re: 1.5 Million 400 Troy Ounce Fake Tungsten Gold Bars - Goldfinger - A New Take On Operation Grand

Wouldn't passing a current through the bar reveal this instantly?

Without doing any calculations, my bet is that the difference between a W slug coated in Au is very slight compared to that of a solid Au bar of the same size. This is based upon how conductive the exceedingly thin Au layers on the electronic circuitry with which I'm familiar are. I think you would have to try passing a hell of a lot of current through something the size of a gold bar to see much effect from a W core, if the Au overlayer has any appreciable thickness at all.

[metalman]

Re: 1.5 Million 400 Troy Ounce Fake Tungsten Gold Bars - Goldfinger - A New Take On Operation Grand

Without doing any calculations, my bet is that the difference between a W slug coated in Au is very slight compared to that of a solid Au bar of the same size. This is based upon how conductive the exceedingly thin Au layers on the electronic circuitry with which I'm familiar are. I think you would have to try passing a hell of a lot of current through something the size of a gold bar to see much effect from a W core, if the Au overlayer has any appreciable thickness at all.

let's reopen the assay office and sub-treasury...

The Assay Office is a branch of the United States Mint, and, as its name indicates, it receives and assays deposits of gold and silver and returns same to the depositors in the shape of bars, or the Government will give coin for the value of the gold. An interesting book could be written about the Assay Office, its methods of melting and refining, and its marvelous scales, which are so delicately adjusted that they can weigh one-half of one hair of a person's head. It is from this office that the exporters of gold obtain most of the yellow metal for shipment; and it is in this connection that the Assay Office becomes an important part of the mechanism of Wall Street. In this office we are confronted with the evidence of the dual character of gold as money or a medium of exchange, and as merchandise, an article itself bought and sold the same as pig-iron. The Assay Office makes two kinds of gold bars for sale: small bars varying in value from $100 to $700, which are bought for use in the arts and sciences; and large bars varying in value from $5,000 to $8,000, which are used for the export of the precious metal. These bars are stamped with weight and fineness as ascertained by the assay. Exporters pay 4 cents per $100 for them, but even at this cost the bars are cheaper than coin would be.

The coin can be obtained without premium at the Sub-treasury on presentation of legal tenders, but coin is inferior to bars for export, because more easily abrased. The stamp of the United States on a coin is effective only within our own boundaries. As soon as the coin reaches a foreign country, its value is determined not by the stamp upon it but by its weight. So, when we are compelled to pay our debts by a gold shipment, the gold, whether it be bars or coin, is weighed and its value ascertained. Coin loses value by handling. Even new coin carried in bags loses value by abrasion during the trip across the Atlantic. It is stated at the Assay Office that if a bag of gold coin is put on the scales and weighed, then lifted on to the floor, and then immediately put on the scales again, the mere movement which this simple operation has involved will cause an abrasion such as will show a difference in weight. Bars, on the other hand, can be easily handled without much, if any, friction. When they arrive on the other side there is little loss in weight. In a big gold shipment this means much.

The shipper packs them in the rear court of the Assay Office in casks, with sawdust to prevent abrasion.

The Work of Wall Street, Sereno S. Pratt
D. Appleton and Co., New York and London, 1910, Pages 221-222, 236.

no tungsten slug bar got by these dudes. :cool:

[Rotwang]

Re: 1.5 Million 400 Troy Ounce Fake Tungsten Gold Bars - Goldfinger - A New Take On Operation Grand

and here is an ultrasonic meter.
http://www.portabletesters.com/listing.phtml?pid=ut005
that when calibrated for the sound velocity of gold(Au) will spit out tungsten (W) easily.

[jshare]

Re: How to Make Convincing Fake Gold Bars

He's an author and probably not a precious metals investor. He just wrote about how to make fake gold bars in principle and may well have no clue about troy ounces vs. avoirdupois ounces.

I think his actual confusion is between troy pounds and avoirdupois pounds.

400 troy oz is 33.33 troy lbs.

[Dr.No]

Re: Use a larger % of tungsten combined with a smaller % of bismuth (which is strongly diamagnetic)

One could perhaps use a larger percentage of tungsten combined with a smaller percentage of bismuth (which is strongly diamagnetic), and - as bismuth is less dense than tungsten and gold - also combine this with a moderate percentage of osmium or iridium (both heavier than tungsten and gold, and significantly cheaper) to achieve the appropriate level of diamagnetism and overall density (have not done the calculations to determine whether this indeed would be achievable - just a thought that crossed my mind when reading your post)?

Might be other ways to appropriately modify its magnetic properties as well.

[newnewthing]

Re: 1.5 Million 400 Troy Ounce Fake Tungsten Gold Bars - Goldfinger - A New Take On Operation Grand

Bulk resistivity is quite different as well. Gold is a bit more than 2x the conductivity of Tungsten. This can be indirectly tested by measuring the decay characteristics of a magnetic field that has been applied for a second or two. The field decays in rough proportion to conductivity. One way around this might be silver coated tungsten powder then coating the result with something else that won't alloy with gold when poured.

You would still get an acoustic tell. Both an acoustic test and induced B field tests are fairly trivial design tasks and would be cheap and provide fast, non destructive tests.

[newnewthing]

Re: 1.5 Million 400 Troy Ounce Fake Tungsten Gold Bars - Goldfinger - A New Take On Operation Grand

Without doing any calculations, my bet is that the difference between a W slug coated in Au is very slight compared to that of a solid Au bar of the same size. This is based upon how conductive the exceedingly thin Au layers on the electronic circuitry with which I'm familiar are. I think you would have to try passing a hell of a lot of current through something the size of a gold bar to see much effect from a W core, if the Au overlayer has any appreciable thickness at all.

The Au layers on some electronic circuits, (connector fingers, PGA sockets, etc) are to provide corrosion resistant positive contact. They are significantly less conductive than the copper substrate they are on. Since they are thin in comparison, the voltage loss through the Au is negligible.

It has been stated in this thread that it is impossible to directly measure the Gold bar bulk resistivity. It can be measured using 4 terminal techniques and sub microvolt DC meters. However, it is more easily measured using decaying B fields.

[LargoWinch]

Re: 1.5 Million 400 Troy Ounce Fake Tungsten Gold Bars - Goldfinger - A New Take On Operation Grand

The Au layers on some electronic circuits, (connector fingers, PGA sockets, etc) are to provide corrosion resistant positive contact. They are significantly less conductive than the copper substrate they are on. Since they are thin in comparison, the voltage loss through the Au is negligible.

It has been stated in this thread that it is impossible to directly measure the Gold bar bulk resistivity. It can be measured using 4 terminal techniques and sub microvolt DC meters. However, it is more easily measured using decaying B fields.

Wha? ;)

[ok...ok: 8 letters it is]