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  • Good Bubble, Bad Bubble...

    Once upon a time [Yes Virginia, what follows is a fairy tale], in the days of Maestros and Masters of the Universe, the official Fed position was Bubbles Are Invisible...at least until they burst.

    Apparently one former member of the Fed has been listening to Jimmy Cliff and discovered he can see clearly now - clear enough to see some of those previously transparent bubbles at least. Not only can he see them, he can categorize them. Okay, admittedly it's only a binary classification system, and we're a long way from genus and species, but it's a start...or is it??

    From today's FT [Hopefully the thread title is not so disingenuous as to attract admonition from JN]:
    Not all bubbles present a risk to the economy

    By Frederic Mishkin
    Published: November 9 2009 20:08 | Last updated: November 9 2009 20:08


    There is increasing concern that we may be experiencing another round of asset-price bubbles that could pose great danger to the economy. Does this danger provide a case for the US Federal Reserve to exit from its zero-interest-rate policy sooner rather than later, as many commentators have suggested? The answer is no.

    Are potential asset-price bubbles always dangerous? Asset-price bubbles can be separated into two categories. The first and dangerous category is one I call “a credit boom bubble”, in which exuberant expectations about economic prospects or structural changes in financial markets lead to a credit boom. The resulting increased demand for some assets raises their price and, in turn, encourages further lending against these assets, increasing demand, and hence their prices, even more, creating a positive feedback loop. This feedback loop involves increasing leverage, further easing of credit standards, then even higher leverage, and the cycle continues.

    Eventually, the bubble bursts and asset prices collapse, leading to a reversal of the feedback loop. Loans go sour, the deleveraging begins, demand for the assets declines further and prices drop even more. The resulting loan losses and declines in asset prices erode the balance sheets at financial institutions, further diminishing credit and investment across a broad range of assets. The resulting deleveraging depresses business and household spending, which weakens economic activity and increases macroeconomic risk in credit markets. Indeed, this is what the recent crisis has been all about.

    The second category of bubble, what I call the “pure irrational exuberance bubble”, is far less dangerous because it does not involve the cycle of leveraging against higher asset values. Without a credit boom, the bursting of the bubble does not cause the financial system to seize up and so does much less damage. For example, the bubble in technology stocks in the late 1990s was not fuelled by a feedback loop between bank lending and rising equity values; indeed, the bursting of the tech-stock bubble was not accompanied by a marked deterioration in bank balance sheets. This is one of the key reasons that the bursting of the bubble was followed by a relatively mild recession.

    Similarly, the bubble that burst in the stock market in 1987 did not put the financial system under great stress and the economy fared well in its aftermath.

    Because the second category of bubble does not present the same dangers to the economy as a credit boom bubble, the case for tightening monetary policy to restrain a pure irrational exuberance bubble is much weaker. Asset-price bubbles of this type are hard to identify: after the fact is easy, but beforehand is not. (If policymakers were that smart, why aren’t they rich?) Tightening monetary policy to restrain a bubble that does not materialise will lead to much weaker economic growth than is warranted. Monetary policymakers, just like doctors, need to take a Hippocratic Oath to “do no harm”.

    Nonetheless, if a bubble poses a sufficient danger to the economy as credit boom bubbles do, there might be a case for monetary policy to step in. However, there are also strong arguments against doing so, which is why there are active debates in academia and central banks about whether monetary policy should be used to restrain asset-price bubbles.

    But if bubbles are a possibility now, does it look like they are of the dangerous, credit boom variety? At least in the US and Europe, the answer is clearly no. Our problem is not a credit boom, but that the deleveraging process has not fully ended. Credit markets are still tight and are presenting a serious drag on the economy.

    Tightening monetary policy in the US or Europe to restrain a possible bubble makes no sense at the current juncture. The Fed decision to retain the language that the funds rate will be kept “exceptionally low” for an “extended period” makes sense given the tentativeness of the recovery, the enormous slack in the economy, current low inflation rates and stable inflation expectations. At this critical juncture, the Fed must not take its eye off the ball by focusing on possible asset-price bubbles that are not of the dangerous, credit boom variety.

    Party on...
    Last edited by GRG55; November 10, 2009, 12:13 AM.

  • #2
    Re: Good Bubble, Bad Bubble...

    bubble bubble, toil and trouble....

    yeah, nothing like a plain ol' asset bubble like the bygone dot.bomb days to
    bring a little life to the economy, huh?

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Good Bubble, Bad Bubble...

      Very interesting, GRG, this topic of "bubbles."

      Here is another discussion with what might be a long-term "gold bubble."

      http://blogs.ft.com/maverecon/2009/1...ble/#more-7641 11/08/09

      I don’t want to argue with a 6000-year old bubble. It may well be good for another 6000 years. Its value may go from $1,100 per fine ounce to $1,500 or $5,000 for all I know. But I would not invest more than a sliver of my wealth into something without intrinsic value, something whose positive value is based on nothing more than a set of self-confirming beliefs.
      Jim 69 y/o

      "...Texans...the lowest form of white man there is." Robert Duvall, as Al Sieber, in "Geronimo." (see "Location" for examples.)

      Dedicated to the idea that all people deserve a chance for a healthy productive life. B&M Gates Fdn.

      Good judgement comes from experience; experience comes from bad judgement. Unknown.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Good Bubble, Bad Bubble...

        Originally posted by Jim Nickerson View Post
        Very interesting, GRG, this topic of "bubbles."

        Here is another discussion with what might be a long-term "gold bubble."

        http://blogs.ft.com/maverecon/2009/1...ble/#more-7641 11/08/09
        ...something whose positive value is based on nothing more than a set of self-confirming beliefs...
        There's a few companies with stock market equity prices that fit that description...:p

        Come to think of it, the paper money in my wallet fits that description too...:eek:

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Good Bubble, Bad Bubble...

          Originally posted by GRG55 View Post
          ...something whose positive value is based on nothing more than a set of self-confirming beliefs...
          There's a few companies with stock market equity prices that fit that description...:p

          Come to think of it, the paper money in my wallet fits that description too...:eek:
          Ah, the stuart smalley economy.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Good Bubble, Bad Bubble...

            Originally posted by doom&gloom View Post
            bubble bubble, toil and trouble....

            yeah, nothing like a plain ol' asset bubble like the bygone dot.bomb days to
            bring a little life to the economy, huh?
            We should accept that the hustle and flow is the economy.

            Now we get to see what a global fiat bubble "really" looks like.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Good Bubble, Bad Bubble...

              Originally posted by GRG55 View Post
              ...something whose positive value is based on nothing more than a set of self-confirming beliefs...
              There's a few companies with stock market equity prices that fit that description...:p

              Come to think of it, the paper money in my wallet fits that description too...:eek:

              I think you haven't time to read the article, it covers "fiat" of all sorts rather well.
              Jim 69 y/o

              "...Texans...the lowest form of white man there is." Robert Duvall, as Al Sieber, in "Geronimo." (see "Location" for examples.)

              Dedicated to the idea that all people deserve a chance for a healthy productive life. B&M Gates Fdn.

              Good judgement comes from experience; experience comes from bad judgement. Unknown.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Good Bubble, Bad Bubble...

                Jesse's comments hilarious.

                Former Fed governor Fred Mishkin distinguishes between bad bubbles, that hurt banks, and good bubbles like the tech bubble, that just hurt investors and distort the economy.

                http://jessescrossroadscafe.blogspot...-and-love.html

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Good Bubble, Bad Bubble...

                  I think EJ or someone else here said something like - "the only thing worse than when the bubble bursts is no new bubble!" I really liked that thought.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Good Bubble, Bad Bubble...

                    Originally posted by stanley2008 View Post
                    I think EJ or someone else here said something like - "the only thing worse than when the bubble bursts is no new bubble!" I really liked that thought.
                    Well now we have a credit "binge" bubble that is not going away soon. The first part of the Mishkin article is so, so, so correct. The Loop is Killing the banks- Citibank and others are piling up cash reserves (close to a $billion) because it has many billions of mark to makebelieve that they know is actually real and increasingly building. Banks do not make money hording cash - they are margin seekers. If they are piling it up, they are because they have a major problem hidden that they are desperately trying to cover.
                    The other part below is just plain bullshit. All bubbles cause pain depending on how long they have been allowed to grow vs how wide spread they expand. The "tech bubble" was short and sharp and never infected a wide part of the Investor field, indeed, many people stayed away simply because they did not understand it. It effect were felt across a narrow field and not a lot was lost( and some Techs made big money ie Amazon).
                    But there is a bubble forming that I call the "Inflation Fear Bubble" Money that is chasing returns on any asset that may give a capital gain above bank interest or bond clips. Money flows to best risk adjusted return and it really doesn't matter what it is as long as it is a positive return above inflation. Money in cash will earn you, what 4%pa at best then its taxed - My God you can earn that in one week buying a stock that is government protected as TBTF - they are after Anything but cash paying less than inflation. An Inflation fear Bubble - its the only game in town

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Good Bubble, Bad Bubble...

                      Originally posted by thunderdownunder View Post
                      Banks do not make money hording cash - they are margin seekers. If they are piling it up, they are because they have a major problem hidden that they are desperately trying to cover.
                      Isn't the Fed paying interest on reserves? That is risk free margin and recapitalization.

                      Originally posted by thunderdownunder View Post
                      The "tech bubble" was short and sharp and never infected a wide part of the Investor field, indeed, many people stayed away simply because they did not understand it. It effect were felt across a narrow field and not a lot was lost( and some Techs made big money ie Amazon).
                      Didn't historically low rates and the real estate bubble turn that puppy around?
                      Originally posted by thunderdownunder View Post
                      An Inflation fear Bubble - its the only game in town
                      Until the punch bowl is pulled again and there is another leg down. That will be some real fear.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Good Bubble, Bad Bubble...

                        I'm not an economist but I think this paragraph is an example of where this author "jumps the tracks" on his thesis.

                        "
                        With a bit of further work, such an economy will have an equilibrium with a positive, constant price of money (a constant general price level). Economists call this the fundamental equilibrium. This stationary economy will, however, also have many other (in fact infinitely many other) non-stationary equilibria, called (speculative) bubbles. They always have equilibria in which the value of money starts at a positive value but falls steadily towards zero - the general price level rises without bound even though the quantity of money is constant. The holders of money anticipate the future inflation and reduce the real stock of money balances they want to hold. This further increases the actual and expected rate of inflation, and the real stock of money balances goes to zero: the general price level goes to infinity or the price of money goes to zero. We have Zimbabwe."

                        1). Name one instance in the past where gold went to zero?

                        2). Name one instance where hyper inflation occurred and the quantity of money was held constant?

                        I think the author is out in left field with this article. JMHO.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Good Bubble, Bad Bubble...

                          Originally posted by stanley2008 View Post
                          I think EJ or someone else here said something like - "the only thing worse than when the bubble bursts is no new bubble!" I really liked that thought.
                          that was the conclusion of the next bubble.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Good Bubble, Bad Bubble...

                            freddie mishkin needs fresh material. bubble selectivity? old idea is old...
                            The Bubble Cycle is Replacing the Business Cycle

                            Maybe there's a New Economy after all

                            by Eric Janszen

                            Note: this article originally appeared on the AlwaysOn Network, March 13, 2005.

                            Let's put to rest the myth that the Fed is blind to asset bubbles and never intentionally acts to prick them. The truth can be obtained by anyone with an internet browser and a few hours on their hands to read the voluminous Fed Open Market Committee (FOMC) meeting minutes. In the FOMC meeting minutes from March 22, 1994 (pdf), Greenspan says (my emphasis in italics):
                            "When we moved on February 4th, I think our expectation was that we would prick the bubble in the equity markets. What in fact occurred is that, as evidence of the dramatic shift in the economic outlook began to emerge after we moved and long-term rates began to move up, we were also clearly getting a major upward increase in expectations of corporate earnings. While the stock market went down after our actions on February 4th, it has gone down really quite marginally on net over this period. So what has occurred is that while this capital gains bubble in all financial assets had to come down, instead of the decline being concentrated in the stock area, it shifted over into the bond area. But the effects are the same. These are major capital losses, which have required very dramatic changes in the actions and activities on the part of individuals and institutions."

                            "So the question is, having very consciously and purposely tried to break the bubble and upset the markets in order to sort of break the cocoon of capital gains speculation, we are now in a position—having done that and in a sense succeeded perhaps more than we had intended—to try to restore some degree of confidence in the System."
                            To try to restore some degree of confidence in "the System," as Greenspan calls it, the Fed injected liquidity in 1994 that restored function to a dysfunctional banking system and rescued the bond market. But what cures one bubble sows the seeds of new ones. As Martin Mayer said in his book The Fed: "The truth is that liquidity, the only significant weapon remaining in the central bank's arsenal as decision making moves to the markets, will not necessarily go where you want it to go when you need it to go there."

                            The 1994 liquidity injection kicked off the largest and longest period of real estate appreciation in US history and launched the late 1990s stock market bubble in the bargain. Five years later, in June 1999, the Fed appears to have moved to prick the new stock market bubble in the same purposeful manner as in 1994, except you won't find the same explicit discussion about pricking bubbles in the minutes of the June 30 FOMC meeting notes. The only reference to asset bubbles comes from the President of the Federal Reserve Banks of Boston, Cathy E. Minehan, during the previous month's meeting (emphasis added):

                            "We recently held a meeting of the Bank's Academic Advisory Council which, as you all know, includes two or three Nobel Prize winners and people from Harvard, MIT, Yale, and so forth. The discussion focused on issues related to productivity growth, labor market tightness, and asset market bubbles. The group was lively, to say the least. But some consensus was reached on the need for action that might take the wind out of asset markets, even in the absence of tighter monetary policy, perhaps through increased margin requirements or increased supervisory oversight on credit extended, particularly in the day trading operations."



                            She also commented on "excesses and imbalances" in the "stock markets, real estate markets, corporate and personal debt." If there was concern around the FOMC in 1999 about real estate excesses, you have to wonder what the FOMC thinks today. The median home price in California is up 123 percent since then. That's close to the median home price increase for the US in the previous 20 years, from 1980 to 1999.
                            etc, etc...

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