Houses in Canada 2 to 3 times as expensive as U.S.

[LargoWinch]

Re: Houses in Canada 2 to 3 times as expensive as U.S.

I'm not an expert in Real Estate.

However, I would challenge the $600K average house price in Toronto. I would have guessed closer to $380K ... and Adeptus provided a chart that shows it just under $400K. It makes some of the data seem questionable.

Based on my weekly research, in the GTA (accessible to the subway via a 10min. bus ride) a semidetached (3bdr/1.5bath) goes for around $450K, while a detached starts at around $600K/$650K.

That is for a 1960/1970 built house in average area, with average repair to be done.

[Spartacus]

Re: Houses in Canada 2 to 3 times as expensive as U.S.

Most people who don't have 20% downpayments pay a 3% mortgage insurance premium (auto-packaged into their mortgage) to the "CMHC" (equivalent to Freddie/Fannie). This institution continues to have it's insurable limits raised by the government by HUNDREDS of billions. When the housing finally crashes, CMHC will eventually break, and due to Quasi-government entity, I expect nothing more than a tax-payer bail-out, just like in the USA.
Adeptus

You probably meant to write "nothing less than ..."

"nothing more than ..." means that's the limit of what'll be done.



I, on the other hand, expect more than a bailout ...

I expect bonuses for the banks, and brokerages and agents that generated the most volume,

and huge bonuses for the executives whose departments underwrote the worst of the worst insurance

[Fiat Currency]

Re: Houses in Canada 2 to 3 times as expensive as U.S.

Based on my weekly research, in the GTA (accessible to the subway via a 10min. bus ride) a semidetached (3bdr/1.5bath) goes for around $450K, while a detached starts at around $600K/$650K.

That is for a 1960/1970 built house in average area, with average repair to be done.

I appreciate the data. Is that the same as saying the AVERAGE house price in GTA (or Toronto) is $600K ?? Or is that just echoing "location location location" and saying a nice detached house within walking distance to the subway/LRT is $600K.

That is the question I was trying to ask. The article leads one to believe that the average price is $600K ... but even the slide provided doesn't show that.

[MulaMan]

Re: Houses in Canada 2 to 3 times as expensive as U.S.

Could be 600K in the City of Toronto but not Greater Toronto (GTA) which includes all the commuter cities. Think City of San Francisco vs. the Bay Area.

Canada also has public health care so worst case scenario you lose money in real estate...but YOU WIL NOT DIE (lol) as you do in America...you just rent the same place back, turn on the hockey game, and let the government take the loss.

So Canadians always take more risk (more leverage) when they purchase properties. Currently Canadians are buying in Florida and Arizonia as well.

If you want to short Canada, then you probably need to short the Canadian dollar...or you could short the banks TD, RY, BMO....but I think that is very risky.

At some point it will make sense to go long USD and short CDN but I don't think we are at the point as of yet, could be wrong.

[oddlots]

Re: Houses in Canada 2 to 3 times as expensive as U.S.

More evidence:

http://murraydobbin.ca/2009/10/22/wh...le-will-burst/

By the end of 2007 there were $138 billion in NHA securitized pools outstanding and guaranteed by CMHC –17.8 per cent of all outstanding mortgages. By June 30, 2009, that figure was $290 billion, a figure Lepoidevin says, “exceeds the total value of mortgages offered by CMHC in its 57 years of existence!” CMHC’s stated goal was to guarantee $340 billion by the end of this year and is on track to reach $500 billion by the end of 2010. Total mortgage credit in Canada will grow by 12-14 per cent of GDP in 2009.

At the peak of the U.S. housing bubble, just before it burst, house prices were five times the average American income; in Canada today that ratio is 7.4:1 — almost 50 per cent higher.

[LargoWinch]

Re: Houses in Canada 2 to 3 times as expensive as U.S.

At some point it will make sense to go long USD and short CDN but I don't think we are at the point as of yet, could be wrong.

That sort of thing is risky.

Central Banks print and collude together, why not select a few things that will benefit and simply buy the dips without leverage and wait?

Hint: one is shinny the other is from plants. ;)

[stanley2008]

Re: Houses in Canada 2 to 3 times as expensive as U.S.

Who is paying $600K for an igloo anyways I wonder.


I wonder if anyone knows what percentages of Canadians

- are "savers" and how much they save yearly. Less than in USA? More?

- have maxed out visa cards and what percentage are credit card abusers?

- own their home outright?

- Unemployment rate in Canada.?

- Home foreclosures in Canada?

Canadians cannot write off mortgage interest - so not as much of an incentive to go deeply into debt as there is in the USA. This is a huge difference from USA. Why would you ever want to own a home outright in the USA when you can write off the interest of a home equity loan? I don't think there has been nearly as much of these "home equity loans" that can really doom a home owner caught in a real estate bubble. Not sure of this really, but I am sure it's a lower percentage than in America.

Most of the trouble in Canada that I have heard about on the news has been related to the auto industry problems in Ontario, lumber, and the ups and downs in oil. Strong loony is a chronic squeeze on exporters, but you are not going to see the same level of corporate bankruptcies as in the USA. Commercial real estate in big cities - yeah, there are problems, but for some it's opportunities.

Canadians pay higher tax rates, but don't have to be so concerned about health insurance. University tuition, although it's going up all the time, is lower than in the USA. These factors can reduce debt burden somewhat.

Nobody in Canada is bankrupted by a broken arm or a few weeks in a hospital.

Canada supplies USA with 16% of it's imported oil - don't forget that fact iTulipers. USA gets imports more oil from Canada than from Saudi Arabia. Other natural resources are abundant in Canada - and these resources create a lot of employment.

The Central bank of Canada might not be controlled by the man behind the curtain like it is in the states. That might be a good thing. Not sure about this, but I think Prime Minister MacKenzie King saw some problems in the USA with the Fed, and decided to take a different path on banking. If this is actually true, I'd like to know how he pulled that off. Seems more likely that the Canadian banksters are behind all of this mess! (halfway kidding there).

Canadian banks are the strongest in the world right now. The conservative suits running Canadian banks seem to have avoided the whole scam. It's baffling, but I think this is actually true! Maybe someone can research it up and let us know if this is true. They don't do as much of the derivatives of mortgage insurance whatever you call it.

You can still get a credit card for your pet cat in Canada, just like in the USA, but the average Canadian is not getting nearly as many junk mail credit card offers anymore - so that has changed a little bit.

Loans from banks? If you qualify by simple standards, you can get a loan. If you want a jumbo loan for a $700K McMansion and you just got a promotion at McDonalds, you are not going to get the loan unless you can put down at least 25%. So that's different than a ninja loan from the bank of Arizona a couple years ago I suppose.

CMHC is for first time home buyers, and they never used to give these 5% down loans away to anyone with a pulse - maybe now they do, I'm not sure, but surely when they see what has happened to America, they are tightening up the belt and not racing to sign up ninja loans in Canada - that would be unthinkable now.

The prime minister "Steven Harper" really liked George W Bush. He is still in power, and has been trying to make $200 Billion disappear in the name of some "bailout". They paid off GM to keep the Canadian auto industry going in Canada I am sure, and loading up the country with debt seems to be the thing to do these days. But again - it's not on the same scale as in the USA.

Canada is fine, but really $600K for an igloo is outrageous.

Actually it's a pretty safe bet that there is going to be 20% drop in housing - but that's a lot different than a $1.00 house in Detroit.

So there is my take on Canada, juxtaposed with what we see in the USA.


Here's a MacKenzie King quotation I found:

William Lyon Mackenzie King Quote

"Once a nation parts with the control of its currency and credit,
it matters not who makes the nations laws. Usury, once in control,
will wreck any nation. Until the control of the issue of currency
and credit is restored to government and recognized as its most sacred
responsibility, all talk of the sovereignty of parliament and
of democracy is idle and futile."

I think he was referring to the US Federal Reserve.

[stanley2008]

Re: Houses in Canada 2 to 3 times as expensive as U.S.

Scary, scary stuff.

And he's not even as much of a doomer as me.

That $559,000 house looks to me like an East York place - no other Toronto suburb has lots of one-storey houses. Built around about WWII, single storey with a basement. Detached garage or no garage - The driveway comes up to the house's side door.

I lived in East York - Bayview and Eglinton area as I recall. It's fairly close to downtown I guess. Considered a luxury for all the sucker commuters who have to drive for an hour to get to their jobs from way far away. There is a premium for convenience in Canada's largest city.

Yeah, I was thinking the same kinda thing about those Vancouver houses - are these near Kit's beach or something? Location location location - it's true. No matter how bad it gets, if you are in a good area, the price is going to be high.

As a comparison this blogger guy shows some McMansions in Arizona! Nice comparison - but how much do you have to pay for air conditioning for a 7000 square foot house like that? "Nice fuckin lawn man" - lol. No beach? But I guess there are plenty of shopping malls. lol. I mean really, he is loading up his arguement a bit. How much is a 1000 square foot bungalo near the waterfront in San Francisco? that's a better comparison than some mansion in the desert or what something in Texas? come on dude. That blogger has a mission, and it's not to inform you. It's dis-information.

[Fiat Currency]

Re: Houses in Canada 2 to 3 times as expensive as U.S.

Here's a MacKenzie King quotation I found:

William Lyon Mackenzie King Quote

"Once a nation parts with the control of its currency and credit,
it matters not who makes the nations laws. Usury, once in control,
will wreck any nation. Until the control of the issue of currency
and credit is restored to government and recognized as its most sacred
responsibility, all talk of the sovereignty of parliament and
of democracy is idle and futile."

I think he was referring to the US Federal Reserve.

Remember - King used to believe heavily in the spirit world - and regularly talked to his dog and consulted him on affairs. Who knows what he was referring to ... :eek: ... but you make some other good points.

[LargoWinch]

Re: Houses in Canada 2 to 3 times as expensive as U.S.

Stanley, you have too much faith in Canada's Central Banksters.

They are no better than Europe's or those south of the border.

So yes, the name of the game is like everywhere else: devaluation, print print print and prop up asset prices while decreasing standards of living for all of us.

Here is a chart proving my point about a "strong" $CAD:



More importantly, make sure not to miss the following post of a few months ago: it cannot be more clear than that about BoC intentions...

Pitty the fool who buys $CAD for protection instead of Gold or Oil.

[touchring]

Re: Houses in Canada 2 to 3 times as expensive as U.S.

I'm not sure if the West is prepared to devalue until prices go to such extents. The advantage in many Asian countries is there is no need to get elected.

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/BUSINESS....hk.hot.money/

Chinese cash inflates Hong Kong property prices

Hong Kong, China (CNN) -- The most coveted property on Hong Kong island is called "The Peak," overlooking the city's stunning Victoria Harbor.
But these days, the prices are what is taking people's breath away -- a modest apartment here now can go for $30 million. Recently what is claimed to be the world's most expensive apartment -- a 6,200-square-foot duplex -- sold for a record $57 million.



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/f...s-for-25m.html

China's property market tipped for revival as house sells for £25m

A house in Shanghai has sold for a record 250m yuan (£25m) as analysts tipped the Chinese property market for a comeback.


By Malcolm Moore in Shanghai
Published: 3:44PM GMT 24 Mar 2009

A villa at the Shimao development in Shaighai's Sheshan suburb. One of the 72 on the site has gone for a record £25m.


Shimao, a Hong Kong-listed property developer, said it had sold two villas in the leafy Shanghainese suburb of Sheshan, one for 250m yuan and the other for 155m yuan.
The price paid for the 40,000 sq ft house is almost double the previous record of 130m yuan. According to Shimao, the house boasts a bowling alley, a wine cellar and access to a private islet.

[bobola]

Re: Houses in Canada 2 to 3 times as expensive as U.S.

Stories like this only help reinforce my plan to beat the high cost of housing, which is to live on a sailboat with easy access to a big city.

No property tax.

Don't like your neighbor..???..move to a different slip.

Don't like the marina which just jacked up the cost of slip rental ..???...move to a different marina.

Don't like marina cost...??...anchor off.

[AlexPKeaton]

Re: Houses in Canada 2 to 3 times as expensive as U.S.

I didn't know it was that high

A North American relative visited India wanted to buy 2 hotels in Delhi, to be an absent owner - a cousin would run the places.

Diversifying from his Oaxaca landscaping company, Seoul cleaners, and Dublin pub? ;)

(For readers outside the US, Indians/Indian-Americans own 43% of American hotels, and 60% of the "budget" category that I frequent:
http://www.usatoday.com/money/smallb...els-usat_N.htm)

To the original point: I plan to ask EJ about this dynamic soon in the Peak Oil Part Deux thread...it looks like most developed countries are facing similar FIRE and balance sheet issues as the US.

[Spartacus]

Re: Houses in Canada 2 to 3 times as expensive as U.S.

he's a business process consultant, slash, wanna be Internet millionaire and addicted to American management-speak (if I hear "at the end of the day when the synergies line up and the rubber has hit the road" one more effin time, I'll go postal on his *ss. It would probably sound really funny (well, funnier than it does) if he had his ancestors' accent ... )

Diversifying from his Oaxaca landscaping company, Seoul cleaners, and Dublin pub? ;)

[MulaMan]

Re: Houses in Canada 2 to 3 times as expensive as U.S.

Stories like this only help reinforce my plan to beat the high cost of housing, which is to live on a sailboat with easy access to a big city.

And what address are you going to use for your welfare checks?