Goodbye to US HealthCare?

[rj1]

Re: Goodbye to US HealthCare?

I didn't know Governors were going to vote on the legislation in congress.

The one race that will actually make a slight difference is the one in NY-23. Here is a seat that a Dem has never won, and the tea-baggers pulled out all the stops and sent their big guns (Palin, Beck, Limbaugh...) to campaign against the Republican and for the ultra conservative. The civil war in the Republican party is big trouble for Republican primaries.

I'd like to point out that Democrat that won NY-23 is personally against a public healthcare option.

[Jim Nickerson]

Re: Goodbye to US HealthCare?

Probably not my best sentence but I meant that once a subsidy is given or if the public thinks they are getting something for free or at a below market price it will be very hard to withdraw it. I used medicade as an example, as it is typically a very low cost to the user, people will use it more and increases to consumer costs or decreases to the subsidy come at a very high political price. Look at the demand driven by cash for clunkers you trade in your car worth $500-$1,500 and you get $4,500 and they blew through the money in no time. People love free stuff and it does not matter as to the wealth of the recipient because everyone loves a bargin.

There is no such thing as "medicade." What do you actually mean Medicare or Medicaid. They are very, vastly different programs.

Actually nothing about which I can readily think is "free stuff."

[Jim Nickerson]

Re: Goodbye to US HealthCare?

WTF, we don't really need healthcare reform. The system is a capitalistic one and just fine. How else can a system of drug suppliers pay the kinds of fines in the article below and stay in business if it is not entitled to rip off every sucker in the US?

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...nYxCGoA&pos=10

More of the same bullshit here. Insurers, Drugmakers Turn to Senate for Health-Bill Changes http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...d=auD2TZKx.l2c 11/08/09

[KGW]

Re: Goodbye to US HealthCare?

Wherein all the money goes to large, private corporations. . .

Why I Voted NO

by Dennis Kucinich
We have been led to believe that we must make our health care choices only within the current structure of a predatory, for-profit insurance system which makes money not providing health care. We cannot fault the insurance companies for being what they are. But we can fault legislation in which the government incentivizes the perpetuation, indeed the strengthening, of the for-profit health insurance industry, the very source of the problem. When health insurance companies deny care or raise premiums, co-pays and deductibles they are simply trying to make a profit. That is our system. Clearly, the insurance companies are the problem, not the solution. They are driving up the cost of health care. Because their massive bureaucracy avoids paying bills so effectively, they force hospitals and doctors to hire their own bureaucracy to fight the insurance companies to avoid getting stuck with an unfair share of the bills. The result is that since 1970, the number of physicians has increased by less than 200% while the number of administrators has increased by 3000%. It is no wonder that 31 cents of every health care dollar goes to administrative costs, not toward providing care. Even those with insurance are at risk. The single biggest cause of bankruptcies in the U.S. is health insurance policies that do not cover you when you get sick.
But instead of working toward the elimination of for-profit insurance, H.R. 3962 would put the government in the role of accelerating the privatization of health care. In H.R. 3962, the government is requiring at least 21 million Americans to buy private health insurance from the very industry that causes costs to be so high, which will result in at least $70 billion in new annual revenue, much of which is coming from taxpayers. This inevitably will lead to even more costs, more subsidies, and higher profits for insurance companies - a bailout under a blue cross.
By incurring only a new requirement to cover pre-existing conditions, a weakened public option, and a few other important but limited concessions, the health insurance companies are getting quite a deal. The Center for American Progress' blog, Think Progress, states, 'since the President signaled that he is backing away from the public option, health insurance stocks have been on the rise.' Similarly, healthcare stocks rallied when Senator Max Baucus introduced a bill without a public option. Bloomberg reports that Curtis Lane, a prominent health industry investor, predicted a few weeks ago that 'money will start flowing in again' to health insurance stocks after passage of the legislation. Investors.com last month reported that pharmacy benefit managers share prices are hitting all-time highs, with the only industry worry that the Administration would reverse its decision not to negotiate Medicare Part D drug prices, leaving in place a Bush Administration policy.
During the debate, when the interests of insurance companies would have been effectively challenged, that challenge was turned back. The 'robust public option' which would have offered a modicum of competition to a monopolistic industry was whittled down from an initial potential enrollment of 129 million Americans to 6 million. An amendment which would have protected the rights of states to pursue single-payer health care was stripped from the bill at the request of the Administration. Looking ahead, we cringe at the prospect of even greater favors for insurance companies.
Recent rises in unemployment indicate a widening separation between the finance economy and the real economy. The finance economy considers the health of Wall Street, rising corporate profits, and banks' hoarding of cash, much of it from taxpayers, as sign of an economic recovery. However in the real economy - in which most Americans live - the recession is not over. Rising unemployment, business failures, bankruptcies and foreclosures are still hammering Main Street.
This health care bill continues the redistribution of wealth to Wall Street at the expense of America's manufacturing and service economies which suffer from costs other countries do not have to bear, especially the cost of health care. America continues to stand out among all industrialized nations for its privatized health care system. As a result, we are less competitive in steel, automotive, aerospace and shipping while other countries subsidize their exports in these areas through socializing the cost of health care.
Notwithstanding the fate of H.R. 3962, America will someday come to recognize the broad social and economic benefits of a not-for-profit, single-payer health care system, which is good for the American people and good for America's businesses, with of course the notable exceptions being insurance and pharmaceuticals.

They are hevily subsidized medical programs where people pay very small co-payments. They do not actually pay their fair share of the cost. It is subsidized by other taxpayers. Hence an entitlement and the below market cost.

[Jim Nickerson]

Re: Goodbye to US HealthCare?

post #69, nice find, KGW.

[stanley2008]

Re: Goodbye to US HealthCare?

Do you carry a card in your wallet that says something to the effect of:

"If am injured or sick and it will cost more money to fix me than I have, please deposit me in the nearest trash can."

This of course should be accompanied by a copy of your financial statement. This way you can avoid being labelled a hypocrite or freeloader.

+1

When it comes to the nitty gritty of getting treatment, I'm sure all those folks who refuse to be "taxed by the gubment" will bend and accept whatever they can get.

IF you want government to ever pay for your health care services, you as a citizen should be willing to pay extra taxes for any of your own unhealthy behaviours. If you smoke, or are overweight, these things can be measured and an appropriate optional tax can be applied. If you refuse to pay the tax, then yeah, you should be dropped in the garbage can when the time comes. It's not a very nice thought, but that's how it has to go.

No pay - no service.

For those who are on welfare chronically - well they are the weaklings - we have to take care of the weaklings. If we don't, then we'll need more gated communities and more police! Simple as that.

What's so hard to understand about that?

[Ghent12]

Re: Goodbye to US HealthCare?

+1

When it comes to the nitty gritty of getting treatment, I'm sure all those folks who refuse to be "taxed by the gubment" will bend and accept whatever they can get.

IF you want government to ever pay for your health care services, you as a citizen should be willing to pay extra taxes for any of your own unhealthy behaviours. If you smoke, or are overweight, these things can be measured and an appropriate optional tax can be applied. If you refuse to pay the tax, then yeah, you should be dropped in the garbage can when the time comes. It's not a very nice thought, but that's how it has to go.

No pay - no service.

For those who are on welfare chronically - well they are the weaklings - we have to take care of the weaklings. If we don't, then we'll need more gated communities and more police! Simple as that.

What's so hard to understand about that?

Goodie goodie, now we can wade through the swamp of assigning taxes based on someone's "medical liability potential." Sounds like such great fun. Sexually promiscuous? Not sterile? Work in heavy industries? Do you go running for exercise or other reasons? Extra taxes for you!

Religious adherence to the "latest and greatest" health advice? Lower taxes for you! Now are eggs good for you or bad for you? Milk?

Somehow I get the feeling that this road leads to hell, in anyone's definition of it...

[fallout]

Re: Goodbye to US HealthCare?

The system cannot be reformed as it now stands, no more than you can work on your automobile while still driving down the highway. It's already all bandaids and bailing wire, with far too many "vested interests" with their hands on the wheel.

Somehow the US is the only industrialized nation on earth that turned basic health care into a for-profit enterprise, and yet we really don't get much for our buck thanks to malpractice insurance, lawyers, the "wheel of justice" for bad outcomes, $100 pills that cost $.01 everywhere else in the world and are available without a prescription, billing departments that dwarf the actual service staff of hospitals, rampant specialization, HMO/insurance restrictions/cancellations/refusals (i.e. the product fails when you need it).
Millions of Americans have insurance, but are actually badly under insured, having been sold "products" that are of little real use.
http://health.usnews.com/articles/he...erinsured.html
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/156157.php
Some years ago I when I didn't have health insurance through an employer I was in such a predicament, paying hundreds of dollars a month for a policy that was effectively only marginally useful. Why? To avoid being "uninsured" completely.
Add those to the official uninsured numbers for a closer look at reality, and as USNews reports you have a good 75 million plus.

Most insurance is simple, many pay in a small amount to cover the cost of the few unlucky who actually end up needing it, examples being home fire insurance (probably never need it, but useful if you do) and life insurance (which one only ever needs once in their lives). "Health" insurance, on the other hand, is actually SICK insurance, you only need it when you are sick and you are GUARANTEED to need it, repeatedly. As a result, it fails to perform in a manner conducive with other insurance 'products'.

Charles Hugh Smith, along with a number of his regular contributors, including several doctors, has run a series of very good articles on this matter already, well worth a read.-

"Healthcare reform" has nothing to do with either socialism or capitalism. Socialism is the Veterans Administration system (owned lock, stock and barrel by the government and run by the government) which offers remarkably cost-effective if basic care to millions of vets, and capitalism is cash-only clinics like those offered in Mexico, India and Thailand and in some Wal-Mart walk-in clinics.
The entire "healthcare reform" enterprise is not about providing care to all--that is the sales pitch. It is about milking the entire populace so more of the national income is transferred to the "healthcare" cartels and State (central government) Elites.
http://www.oftwominds.com/blognov09/...care11-09.html
http://www.oftwominds.com/blogaug09/...tice08-09.html
http://www.oftwominds.com/blogaug09/...bono08-09.html
http://www.oftwominds.com/blogjuly09/healthcare-readers07-09.html
http://www.oftwominds.com/blogjuly09...care07-09.html

His suggestion? Go back to the full capitalist model from the 1950's, the cash-only care system. Make hospitals non-profits. Libertarians should love it, and with actual market forces at work again, costs, which have increased at several dozen times the average rate of inflation, should plummet, as they have in the few medical service areas outside the realm of government programs, insurance, hmo, and similar manipulation, such as cosmetic surgery.
Might have something there.

[Rajiv]

Re: Goodbye to US HealthCare?

Here is Kucinich on Democracy Now as of 8 am this morning

See also

[MulaMan]

Re: Goodbye to US HealthCare?

Goodie goodie, now we can wade through the swamp of assigning taxes based on someone's "medical liability potential." Sounds like such great fun. Sexually promiscuous? Not sterile? Work in heavy industries? Do you go running for exercise or other reasons? Extra taxes for you!

Religious adherence to the "latest and greatest" health advice? Lower taxes for you! Now are eggs good for you or bad for you? Milk?

Somehow I get the feeling that this road leads to hell, in anyone's definition of it...

Actually this is how it works in the entire civilized world except America. You know all those countries listed way above America in health care, education, standard of living, ect...

Take a look at the cigarette and alcohol taxes in Canada or Britian. I believe some even have a "fast food" tax.

In America fast food is actually subsidised by American taxpayers which is absolutely absurd and contributes to all the fat people in America and then drives up health care costs -

American taxpayers actually PAY TAXES to keep the price of Big Macs down and now complain about paying for health care reform - think about how absurd that is!

I'm glad to pay taxes so my poor neighbors can eat cheap big macs but not for health care. LOL.

[MulaMan]

Re: Goodbye to US HealthCare?

His suggestion? Go back to the full capitalist model from the 1950's, the cash-only care system. Make hospitals non-profits. Libertarians should love it, and with actual market forces at work again, costs, which have increased at several dozen times the average rate of inflation, should plummet, as they have in the few medical service areas outside the realm of government programs, insurance, hmo, and similar manipulation, such as cosmetic surgery.
Might have something there.

I agree with this but believe it is politically impossible.

Obama is doing what is possible. Take control of health care in order to break the health insurance cartel and reduce costs.

The details are simply political noise, any reform will easily reduce costs from the 16% of GDP currently wasted on health care in America - this is over $2 trillion a year - absolutly absurd.

Then future administrations can move it back towards a free market model.

Obama is absolutly doing the best thing for the middle class. Most republicans and Lieberman have shown themselves to be compelete mafia scumbags.

De-regulation and destruction of America took 20 years and many republican and democratic presidents...it will take multiple administrations to fix health care and wall-street.

So what is important is that each administration be given the chance to make a step forward and the first step of breaking the cartel / monopoly is the most difficult step.

[MulaMan]

Re: Goodbye to US HealthCare?

Health Care Spending Per Capital. America is the highest by far.

There are only 2 ways forward:
1. Keep the cartel and let your people die.
2. Support Obama, reduce costs and break the cartel.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/he...ing-per-person


Then if you like, elect Ron Paul and further break the over-regulated, socialist health care in America: American Bar Association, American Medical Association, Health Insurance, FDA, ect..

America already has the most unfairly regulated health care system in the world - it is nothing to do with free markets whatsoever - go and open a doctor's office without a "medical degree" and compete with the current medical system - tell us how far you get?

[MulaMan]

Re: Goodbye to US HealthCare?

Faith based health care - more stats - 1st in spending, teenage pregnancy, obesity, and plastic surgery...

America is fat, pregnant, fake, and broke.

Abortions	1,210,880		[2nd of 19]
Age of women at first childbirth	24.9 years old		[15th of 17]
Breast cancer incidence	21.2 per 100,000 females		[17th of 26]
Daily smokers	17.5%		[29th of 30]
Death from cancer	321.9 deaths per 100,000 peopl		[9th of 16]
Drug access	95%		[27th of 163]
Heart disease deaths	106.5 per 100,000 people		[13th of 26]
Hospital beds	3.6 per 1,000 people		[27th of 29]
Hospital beds > per 1,000 people	3.3 per 1,000 people		[37th of 149]
Life expectancy at birth > Male	75.29 years		[48th of 226]
Life expectancy at birth > Total population	78.14 years		[46th of 225]
Maternal mortality	8 per 100,000		[121st of 136]
Obesity	30.6%		[1st of 29]
Physicians > per 1,000 people	2.3 per 1,000 people		[31st of 148]
Plastic surgery procedures	90,992		[1st of 34]
Spending > Per person	4,271		[1st of 133]
Suicide rate > Females	4.4 per 100,000 people		[40th of 80]
Suicide rate > Males	19.8 per 100,000 people		[30th of 80]
Teen birth rate	64		[1st of 40]
Teenage pregnancy	494,357 births		[1st of 26]

http://www.nationmaster.com/country/...tes/hea-health

[Dirk Diggler]

Re: Goodbye to US HealthCare?

I'm in that category as well.

I object to health insurance mandates and consider the extra several hundred it will cost me to be another tax.

I don't want health insurance, and I don't want to pay for it for myself or others. I prefer to spend that sum of money on healthier food.

I feel exactly the same way. It is amazing how much healthier you are when you eat the right foods and get a decent amount of exercise.

[Jim Nickerson]

Re: Goodbye to US HealthCare?

I feel exactly the same way. It is amazing how much healthier you are when you eat the right foods and get a decent amount of exercise.

You and PC, and maybe others, need to take your heads out of your asses and look around, though everything probably will be very dark at first.

You can eat all the healthy stuff you can find, take all the supplements you can find, and do anything else that you think will remove you from ever potentially needing some sort of life-saving healthcare, or quality of life healthcare.

Don't ever get shot, stabbed, clubbed, don't ever get into a serious car wreck, don't misstep off a curb, don't ever fall off a ladder, don't get old with diseqilibrium and break your hip or your neck, etc. etc. etc. Oh, and there might just be some cancers that are not the effect of lifestyle, except prostate ones which are ever more likely if you stay alive long enough.