Goodbye to US HealthCare?

[fliped42]

Post Deleted

[Raz]

Re: Goodbye to US HealthCare?

I am very conservative, in the real sense of the term - not the NeoCon mutation.

And all I have to say is: if the Republicans think that this means they can sit back and do nothing about the health insurance cartel, then they are truly stupid, and will overplay their hand just as Obama and that idiot Pelosi have overplayed theirs.

[Hypatia]

Re: Goodbye to US HealthCare?

There will be much number-crunching tomorrow, but preliminary numbers (at least in Virginia) show that GOP turnout remained the same as last year, but Democratic turnout collapsed. This is a base problem, and this is what Democrats better take from tonight:

1. If you abandon Democratic principles in a bid for unnecessary "bipartisanship", you will lose votes.

2. If you water down reform in favor of Blue Dogs and their corporate benefactors, you will lose votes.

3. If you forget why you were elected -- health care, financial services, energy policy and immigration reform -- you will lose votes.

Tonight proved conclusively that we're not going to turn out just because you have a (D) next to your name, or because Obama tells us to. We'll turn out if we feel it's worth our time and effort to vote, and we'll work hard to make sure others turn out if you inspire us with bold and decisive action.

The choice is yours. Give us a reason to vote for you, or we sit home. And you aren't going to make up the margins with conservative voters. They already know exactly who they're voting for, and it ain't you.

[we_are_toast]

Re: Goodbye to US HealthCare?

I didn't know Governors were going to vote on the legislation in congress.

The one race that will actually make a slight difference is the one in NY-23. Here is a seat that a Dem has never won, and the tea-baggers pulled out all the stops and sent their big guns (Palin, Beck, Limbaugh...) to campaign against the Republican and for the ultra conservative. The civil war in the Republican party is big trouble for Republican primaries.

6 months ago, no one gave health care reform a chance of even getting this far. It will continue to move forward and will pass, even if it takes reconciliation. The 50 million Americans who don't have insurance, or who've been the victim of denied coverage or huge rate increases will be eternally thankful.

Hypatia is also correct about the disappointment and lack of enthusiasm felt by many Dems. There's plenty of time to turn that around, and as we enter the campaign season (if it ever ends), we'll see more politically sponsored legislation to fire up the base.

[Raz]

Re: Goodbye to US HealthCare?

I didn't know Governors were going to vote on the legislation in congress.

The one race that will actually make a slight difference is the one in NY-23. Here is a seat that a Dem has never won, and the tea-baggers pulled out all the stops and sent their big guns (Palin, Beck, Limbaugh...) to campaign against the Republican and for the ultra conservative. The civil war in the Republican party is big trouble for Republican primaries.

6 months ago, no one gave health care reform a chance of even getting this far. It will continue to move forward and will pass, even if it takes reconciliation. The 50 million Americans who don't have insurance, or who've been the victim of denied coverage or huge rate increases will be eternally thankful.

Hypatia is also correct about the disappointment and lack of enthusiasm felt by many Dems. There's plenty of time to turn that around, and as we enter the campaign season (if it ever ends), we'll see more politically sponsored legislation to fire up the base.

There are NOT 50 Million American citizens without healthcare.
The number is bogus - pure propaganda.

[Chomsky]

Re: Goodbye to US HealthCare?

There are NOT 50 Million American citizens without healthcare.
The number is bogus - pure propaganda.

It's closer to 36 million:

Looking back to Obama's statement, though, he said nearly 46 million Americans don't have insurance. Actually, the census data include noncitizens. The Census Bureau breaks out that information and reports that 9.7 million of the uninsured are noncitizens. So the number of Americans without insurance is actually closer to 36 million.

[BK]

Re: Goodbye to US HealthCare - NY 23

The Obama Administration understood the Demographics of the Congressional District NY23 when the gave McHugh his new job as Secretary of the Army. Its a brilliant move grab incumbent Republicans in District that are likely to go Democrat with a new Candidate.

Look at the Major donors for McHugh - Labor Unions and Defense were major contributors. The 2nd highest contributors were Defense Organizations - I'd argue the Labor Union base indicates that there are a lot of people who might be Union members and likely to vote for an appealing Democrat.

Its crazy how Political pundits on the left and right are trying to characterize this single election cycle as a change in how things are. New Jersey elected a a Republican Governor - the State will still be controlled by the Democrats.

Here is a list of major Donors for McHugh according to OpenSecrets.
Look at the Top Donors for McHugh as of 2008
1 Constellation Energy $10,750 $750 $10,000
2 Credit Union National Assn $10,000 $0 $10,000
2 General Dynamics $10,000 $0 $10,000
2 Lockheed Martin $10,000 $0 $10,000
2 Mid Manhattan PAC $10,000 $0 $10,000
2 National Assn of Postmasters $10,000 $0 $10,000
2 National Assn of Realtors $10,000 $0 $10,000
2 National League of Postmasters $10,000 $0 $10,000
2 National Rural Letter Carriers Assn $10,000 $0 $10,000
2 Natl Star Route Mail Contractors Assn $10,000 $0 $10,000
2 Operating Engineers Union $10,000 $0 $10,000
2 PMA Group $10,000 $6,500 $3,500
13 Health Net Inc $8,750 $2,750 $6,000
14 Pitney Bowes Inc $8,500 $500 $8,000
15 Hiscock & Barclay $8,400 $6,100 $2,300
16 American Hospital Assn $8,000 $0 $8,000
16 American Maritime Officers $8,000 $0 $8,000
18 Boeing Co $7,500 $0 $7,500
18 Carpenters & Joiners Union $7,500 $0 $7,500
18 Honeywell International $7,500 $0 $7,500
18 International Assn of Fire Fighters $7,500 $0 $7,500
18 National Beer Wholesalers Assn $7,500 $0 $7,500

[Raz]

Re: Goodbye to US HealthCare?

It's closer to 36 million:

Looking back to Obama's statement, though, he said nearly 46 million Americans don't have insurance. Actually, the census data include noncitizens. The Census Bureau breaks out that information and reports that 9.7 million of the uninsured are noncitizens. So the number of Americans without insurance is actually closer to 36 million.

This information came from the St. Petersburg Times, one of the most disingenuous, hard-left newspapers on the North American Continent. I view anything they say with more than a grain of salt - perhaps a bucket of salt.

What's left out of these "statistics" is the number of American Citizens who elect to NOT purchase health insurance.
I personally know two people who could easily afford $600 - $1,200 per month premiums but choose not to.
Pelosi the Pea-Brain says I should pay for theirs. :mad:

An accurate number of American citizens who lack health insurance and cannot afford health insurance coverage is between 16 and 20 Million.

Politifact (Ha!) rates Obama's 46 Million number as "mostly accurate" since many people have lost coverage due to the recession.
Now that's a novel idea - use a floating number based on where you think it should be due to the economic cycle, in order to lend "credibility" to your most favored politician.

What a boatload of crap.

[sunskyfan]

Re: Goodbye to US HealthCare?

Once again Raz we come to the same conclusion from opposite ends of the political spectrum. Health Insurance is a BS concept that has duped the American People into sending scammers their hard earned money just as Wall Street has tried to convince people they can just be consumers without producing (retirement) half of their adult lives and still be okay.

I say let the system crash and let's rebuild. For those who think they are secure in their current situation you are going to get a rude awakening just like last year. The health system will crash if something is not done. It may crash even if something is done.

As for the person who does not want to pay $1000 premium even if they can afford it. I hate to say their decision may make economic sense. If I have a large deductible and there is a cap on coverage of $5 million (as is the plan available to me for BC&BS). What would I be buying?

[Jim Nickerson]

Re: Goodbye to US HealthCare?

This information came from the St. Petersburg Times, one of the most disingenuous, hard-left newspapers on the North American Continent. I view anything they say with more than a grain of salt - perhaps a bucket of salt.

What's left out of these "statistics" is the number of American Citizens who elect to NOT purchase health insurance.
I personally know two people who could easily afford $600 - $1,200 per month premiums but choose not to.
Pelosi the Pea-Brain says I should pay for theirs. :mad:

An accurate number of American citizens who lack health insurance and cannot afford health insurance coverage is between 16 and 20 Million.

Politifact (Ha!) rates Obama's 46 Million number as "mostly accurate" since many people have lost coverage due to the recession.
Now that's a novel idea - use a floating number based on where you think it should be due to the economic cycle, in order to lend "credibility" to your most favored politician.

What a boatload of crap.

WHAT THE FUCK DIFFERENCE IS THERE BETWEEN 46m AND 100 IF THEY DO NOT HAVE HEALTH INSURANCE IN THE SUPPOSEDLY RICHEST COUNTRY ON THE PLANET THAT HAS ABOUT AS WASTEFUL A SYSTEM AS IMAGINEABLE. Even if everyone had health insurance and it still provides subpar care at inflated costs, the system should be made better and more efficient.

[c1ue]

Re: Goodbye to US HealthCare?

As a good friend of mine put it:

The health care debate is a farce. Do you think if your loved one is injured, knocked unconscious, and taken to the hospital, that treatment should be refused if no ID is available/presented?

Note this is regardless of whether they have insurance or not.

If you believe yes, then bully for you.

The vast majority of people do not. Replace that loved one with 'their child' and the rate goes up even higher since children don't normally carry ID.

Therefore health care is a right like clean water and not a privilege. The question then becomes how to best provide for and pay for this right.

As for Obama - the reality is that he is even a bigger weasel than appears on the surface.

Politically if Obama chose to chip away at the problem - for example by proposing legislation preventing denial of claims for stupid s**t like pre-existing conditions - do you really think anyone would stand in the way Republican or otherwise?

Even the stupidest Senator knows how damaging a few teary eyed orphaned kids or a one legged, one breasted cancer survivor in front of a camera would be.

But rather than attempt these types of maneuvers which would absolutely hurt the health care industry, he instead is choosing to go for the whole ball of wax knowing full well the storm of controversy would arise and likely prevent substantive action.

As I've written numerous times: the problem IS the insurance industry. The present attempts to reform via the insurance industry are wrong headed and doomed to failure.

The same friend also noted that if the choice between approval of care lay between a government employee and a private sector employee:

The government employee might only work from 9 to 5. He/She might be extremely inefficient about it. He/She might not care about you personally. But the job is clear.

The private sector employee is more efficient and motivated, but also is choosing between their job/profit/bonus/survivability as a corporation and your claim.

His choice, and my choice, would be the former.

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: Goodbye to US HealthCare?

I personally know two people who could easily afford $600 - $1,200 per month premiums but choose not to.

I'm in that category as well.

I object to health insurance mandates and consider the extra several hundred it will cost me to be another tax.

I don't want health insurance, and I don't want to pay for it for myself or others. I prefer to spend that sum of money on healthier food.

[Raz]

Re: Goodbye to US HealthCare?

As a good friend of mine put it:

The health care debate is a farce. Do you think if your loved one is injured, knocked unconscious, and taken to the hospital, that treatment should be refused if no ID is available/presented?

Note this is regardless of whether they have insurance or not.

If you believe yes, then bully for you.

The vast majority of people do not. Replace that loved one with 'their child' and the rate goes up even higher since children don't normally carry ID.

Therefore health care is a right like clean water and not a privilege. The question then becomes how to best provide for and pay for this right.

Healthcare is not a right; and neither is clean water.

Jefferson wrote of "inalienable rights", confered by the Creator and not ours as a gift or grant from mankind. These rights were manifest throughout the created order - (example: man is free until subjugaded by other men) - they were "self-evident" as Jefferson put it. Alienable rights, those "rights" granted by men, could just as easily be taken away by men.

No one can assert a right against the created order. For example, the law of gravity prevents water from flowing uphill. Now man can build a pumping system to force water uphill, but it would be utterly ridiculous to say that "I have a right for water to flow uphill".

Good health is not a right. That is manifest throughout the created order for even thousand year old Redwood trees grow ill and die.
And healthcare is not a right - it is a claim that must be enforced against other individuals, whose property or income must be confiscated in order to provide this phony "right" to someone else.

The government must take rights away from one group (their property rights) in order to convey this so-called "right" of healthcare to another group.

[Ghent12]

Re: Goodbye to US HealthCare?

I despise the current discussion on "healthcare reform" because it seems to fly in the face of basic economics. If demand on insurance increases greater than the supply of it, rates increase. Since all "state embargoes" will remain intact on insurance, the supply of insurance will only increase via the public option. Yet that's suppose to "cost more than or equal to" some private providers, so we'll see just how effective that is in increasing the supply of available insurance opportunities.

Then there's the disturbing fact that nearly half of practitioners "will consider leaving their practice" if a similar iteration of the bill is passed. I doubt that the actual number that will leave their practice will be greater than 10% or so, but the fact is that any bill proposed does nothing to increase the supply of healthcare assets.

So it seems to me, with the passage of "healthcare reform" ...
* the supply of healthcare assets (including access to doctors) will decrease generally, which will...
* increase the price of healthcare, which will...
* increase the cost to insurers, which will...
* drive marginal insurance providers out of business, reducing its "supply", which will...
* drive insurance rates up generally, and if the public option is "linked" with private insurance in price to "keep them honest," that will...
* encourage more people to opt for the tax rate over insurance, thus...
** decreasing health insurance coverage...

That is, of course, unless all pretense of the public option being "just another insurance option for consumers" is dropped and it becomes the universal one-payer system dreamt about by economic-illiterists. Then we'll simply have "unlimited, low-cost health insurance for all." Can't wait. :rolleyes:

[sunskyfan]

Re: Goodbye to US HealthCare?

Once again Raz we come to the same conclusion from opposite ends of the political spectrum. Health Insurance is a BS concept that has duped the American People into sending scammers their hard earned money just as Wall Street has tried to convince people they can just be consumers without producing (retirement) half of their adult lives and still be okay.

I say let the system crash and let's rebuild. For those who think they are secure in their current situation you are going to get a rude awakening just like last year. The health system will crash if something is not done. It may crash even if something is done.

As for the person who does not want to pay $1000 premium even if they can afford it. I hate to say their decision may make economic sense. If I have a large deductible and there is a cap on coverage of $5 million (as is the plan available to me for BC&BS). What would I be buying?