European consortium to invest $400 billion importing solar from the Sahara

[GRG55]

Re: European consortium to invest $400 billion importing solar from the Sahara

While much of the USA will be watching Game 6 of the World Series coming from Yankee Stadium, this other hardball game is heating up and could eventually become even more exciting...

Turkey's Erdogan slams nuclear sanctions on Iran

Today's installment...

Sudan's president is free to visit Turkey

Associated Press
2009-11-05 04:24 PM

A foreign ministry official says Sudan's indicted president is free to attend a meeting of Islamic nations in Turkey despite an international arrest warrant against him.

Sudanese President Omar al-Bashir, wanted by the International Criminal Court for war crimes and crimes against humanity, is expected to arrive in Istanbul this weekend to attend a meeting of the Organization of Islamic Conference.

The official said Thursday that Turkey is not a party to the International Criminal Court and has no obligation or intention to arrest al-Bashir. She spoke on condition of anonymity because she was not authorized to speak to media.

Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and Afghan President Hamid Karzai are also expected to attend the meeting next Monday.

[GRG55]

Re: European consortium to invest $400 billion importing solar from the Sahara

Today's installment...

Sudan's president is free to visit Turkey

Associated Press
2009-11-05 04:24 PM

A foreign ministry official says Sudan's indicted president is free to attend a meeting of Islamic nations in Turkey despite an international arrest warrant against him.

Sudanese President Omar al-Bashir, wanted by the International Criminal Court for war crimes and crimes against humanity, is expected to arrive in Istanbul this weekend to attend a meeting of the Organization of Islamic Conference.

The official said Thursday that Turkey is not a party to the International Criminal Court and has no obligation or intention to arrest al-Bashir. She spoke on condition of anonymity because she was not authorized to speak to media.

Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and Afghan President Hamid Karzai are also expected to attend the meeting next Monday.

Waaaay off the topic that started this thread [my apologies]...but this is getting really interesting...

Turkey-EU spat over Bashir highlights OIC summit risks

Fri Nov 6, 2009 9:58am EST

ISTANBUL, Nov 6 (Reuters) - A dispute between Turkey and the European Union over Sudan's indicted president highlights the risks Turkey will face when it hosts an Islamic summit with some new friends who are not to the taste of its Western allies.

The gathering next week will boost EU candidate Turkey's quest to deepen ties with the Muslim world but at the risk of alienating traditional American and European allies.

Turkey's president acused the EU of interfering after the bloc asked Ankara to reconsider inviting Omar Hassan al-Bashir.

Bashir, who has an international arrest warrant against him for war crimes, and Iran's President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, engaged in a standoff with the West over Tehran's nuclear programme, are among leaders who will attend an Organisation of the Islamic Conference (OIC) meeting in Istanbul on Monday.

The one-day summit will add to growing concerns in some Western capitals that Turkey, an important regional ally of Washington, is shifting away from its pro-Western foreign policy and embracing countries such as Iran and Syria, while distancing itself from friend Israel...

...That concern was laid bare open on Friday after President Abdullah Gul, asked about a request from Brussels that Turkey drop Bashir from the guest list, said: "What are they interfering for? This is a meeting being held in the framework of the Organisation of the Islamic Conference. It is not a bilateral meeting."...

[KGW]

Re: European consortium to invest $400 billion importing solar from the Sahara

Wow, I need to get some of what you've been smoking, O Emaciated One. Wow, the visions. Good F**king Grief. :rolleyes:

Last time I checked, the Iraq War had IMPROVED the lives of people in Iraq, Syria, Lebonon, the Persian Gulf states, and even some improvement in the West Bank of Palestine, if not Gaza. And why is that? The answer is that Hamas, Hesbollah, Al Qaide, and similar Islamo-fascist groups have been dispersed.

This does not mean that the struggle against Islamo-fascism has been won, but it does mean that Islamo-fascists are not quite as popular and as entrenched as they were before Bush invaded Iraq and threw-out the regime of So-Damn-Insane.

I don't believe in nation-building so much as thumping the Islamo-fascists whenever one gets the chance. It is similar to clobbering a hornet that flies into your house. In other words, you never will be able to do-away with hornets, but you should never have to live with them.

If Iran is any indication, I suspect many in the Middle East feel as I do. The vast majority of people in that part of the world would love to see the Islamo-fascists crushed. A peaceful and democratic Middle East is possible, even a peace between Isreal and Palestine.

[thriftyandboringinohio]

Re: European consortium to invest $400 billion importing solar from the Sahara

Will the Europeans be willing to defend their, ahem, "infrastructure" with gun ships (or tanks) given how "stable" Africa is? What if some tinpot dictator gets the wrong idea and decides to hold the entire continent to hostage? What happens then?

That's usually the kind of the thing that "love the world" socialists don't think about (not do libertarian ideologues).

Great as a plot for a James Bond movie. Less great as a scenario to plan practical national policies.

[thriftyandboringinohio]

Re: European consortium to invest $400 billion importing solar from the Sahara

As EJ has pointed out, all bubbles need government underpinnings.

from the thread, Alternative Energy: Building a New Future or Reaping Taxpayer subsidies? (selling alt energy tax credits)

Peak Sun Silicon, of Millersburg, sold a $3.25 million tax credit to US Bank for $2.18 million.
Peak Sun also sold a $5.85 million tax credit to two companies: Nordstrom for $2.85 million and Standard Insurance for $2 million.
Solaicx, of Portland, sold a $9.04 million tax credit to US Bank for $6.05 million.
SolarWorld, of Hillsboro, sold an $11 million tax credit to Wal-Mart for $7.37 million.
SolarWorld also sold a $10.96 million tax credit to Flir Systems, of Portland, for $7.34 million.

The Sahara scheme doesn't necessarily have to work...at least not as an energy provider ;)

Didn't Adam Smith cover this principal in Wealth of Nations? Perhaps under herring bounties? Been a long time since I've read it...

[flintlock]

Re: European consortium to invest $400 billion importing solar from the Sahara

Great as a plot for a James Bond movie. Less great as a scenario to plan practical national policies.

Actually, I think its a very real concern. Why could the same situation( constant war, Sadam types, etc) in the Middle East not occur in Africa? I think energy will be the cause of most wars in the future, just like it has been the last few decades. "Practical national polices" should include being as self-sufficient as possible and if that is not possible then not pissing off the people who have the energy. Investing in energy sources in unstable areas will always include some risk. I think it's prudent to acknowledge that fact. Though I doubt solar energy will be fought over like oil was.

[Starving Steve]

Re: European consortium to invest $400 billion importing solar from the Sahara

We have this half-baked idea of solar energy from the Sahara Desert providing electricity to a distant Europe, but we also have the U.S. Department of Energy's (headed by Dr. Chou) half-baked idea of using geo-thermal to provide electricity and heat to buildings and subdivisions. Nobel Lauriete, Al Gore, was on TV this past week and advocated these lunatic schemes.

The geo-thermal scheme goes like this: drilling down two kilometres (about 6500 feet) into the Earth and pumping hot water to the surface. This very expensive hot water would produce steam to drive turbines and produce electricity. So, the Holy Grail is limitless power from very expensive pumping, not to mention the additional problem of getting water from some outside source and pumping that water to the site to use to make steam.

This kind of pot-head thinking is what passes for energy planning to-day. This is exactly why the U.S. is in the economic mess it is in now.

Pot-head schemes like using the Holy Grail of solar energy in the Sahara Desert or the Holy Grail of the Earth's internal heat sound great, until you do some thinking and cost- accounting for the engineering. Then the schemes turn-out to be lunacy.

Wind sounds lovely as an energy source until you think of the sad fact few cities are sited near reliable wind sources--- at least, not sources that blow reliably at high speed. And then windmills need very expensive maintenance, especially when large wind turbines cost one-million dollars each to replace.

But Al Gore keeps talking, and the public keeps dreaming of the possibilities for an easy way out of this energy mess. Witness schemes like those offered by the U.S. Department of Energy or the schemes popular with the European public to-day.... Go visit www.repoweramerica.org to read about even more lunatic schemes like magic "smart grids" that make energy come out of no-where, not-to-mention magically solve the problem of transmission losses in the electric grid.

And then there is the methyl-hydrate scheme popular with Al Gore and the eco-nuts in the Department of Energy in America. This pot-head scheme involves the mining of frozen methane from the bottom of the deep sea and shipping these frozen methyl-hydrate chunks around the world. Simple, hah?

[GRG55]

Re: European consortium to invest $400 billion importing solar from the Sahara

...The geo-thermal scheme goes like this: drilling down two kilometres (about 6500 feet) into the Earth and pumping hot water to the surface. This very expensive hot water would produce steam to drive turbines and produce electricity. So, the Holy Grail is limitless power from very expensive pumping, not to mention the additional problem of getting water from some outside source and pumping that water to the site to use to make steam.

The Chevron operated Jack well in the Gulf of Mexico was drilled in water depth of approximately 7000 feet and a total depth 20,000 feet below the sea floor. And that was all done 175 miles from the shore. It will probably take a decade from discovery to put it on production.

6500 feet to get a non-depleting supply of reliable energy that doesn't require shipping mass amounts of Dollars to OPEC doesn't seem like such a bad deal Steve.

Frankly, I have wondered for quite some time why there has not been more of an effort to bring down the cost of geo-thermal, or at the homeowner level, ground source heat pumps.

[lurker]

Re: European consortium to invest $400 billion importing solar from the Sahara

Frankly, I have wondered for quite some time why there has not been more of an effort to bring down the cost of geo-thermal, or at the homeowner level, ground source heat pumps.

Probably because the manufacturers and installers of ground source heat pumps are not well enough politically connected.

[Starving Steve]

Re: European consortium to invest $400 billion importing solar from the Sahara

The Chevron operated Jack well in the Gulf of Mexico was drilled in water depth of approximately 7000 feet and a total depth 20,000 feet below the sea floor. And that was all done 175 miles from the shore. It will probably take a decade from discovery to put it on production.

6500 feet to get a non-depleting supply of reliable energy that doesn't require shipping mass amounts of Dollars to OPEC doesn't seem like such a bad deal Steve.

Frankly, I have wondered for quite some time why there has not been more of an effort to bring down the cost of geo-thermal, or at the homeowner level, ground source heat pumps.

It isn't just the drilling down 6500 feet that is expensive, it is the pumping-up of super-heated water that is exensive. And that is 6500 feet of pumping straight-up against gravity. Then you need the water-supply and its pumping to reach the geo-thermal well- injection site. (No small cost.) Then you need the construction costs, including the steam-to-electricity turbine. You also face the costs of constructing a heat-exchanger 6500 feet underground..... You really need to be rich like Chevron Oil to even consider such a project.

Maybe if you are considering a project like building another World Trade Centre in New York City, you might give geo-thermal a hard look. But for most construction projects, even for most sky-scrapers, geo-thermal makes no sense at all.... Like everything from the pot-heads in the ecology movement, geo-thermal is another half-thought-out idea. (But stoned-out on pot, ofcourse it makes sense. )

[Serge_Tomiko]

Re: European consortium to invest $400 billion importing solar from the Sahara

Will the Europeans be willing to defend their, ahem, "infrastructure" with gun ships (or tanks) given how "stable" Africa is? What if some tinpot dictator gets the wrong idea and decides to hold the entire continent to hostage? What happens then?

That's usually the kind of the thing that "love the world" socialists don't think about (not do libertarian ideologues).

This is the age of realpolitik. Utopian ideologies thrive only in periods of abundance. Few things are in abundance in this world today besides hordes of uneducated, hungry people. No leader in any industrialized nation is ignorant of this fact, so I'd rest easy.