European consortium to invest $400 billion importing solar from the Sahara

[llanlad2]

They aim to supply 15% of Europe's energy needs by 2050 and start supplying in 2015. Basically aim to heat water to drive turbines using concentrated solar power technology. (CPT)

This is one of several articles I've come across recently regarding investments in renewable energy so seems to tie in with EJs prediction that this will be the next bubble further down the road.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/8337735.stm

A sustainable energy initiative that will start with a huge solar project in the Sahara desert has been announced by a consortium of 12 European businesses.
The Desertec Industrial Initiative aims to supply Europe with 15% of its energy needs by 2050. 
Companies who signed up to the $400bn (£240bn) venture include Deutsche Bank, Siemens and the energy provider E.On. 
The consortium, which will be based in Munich, hopes to start supplying Europe with electricity by 2015. 
Desertec Industrial Initiative aims to produce solar-generated electricity with a vast network of power plants and transmission grids across North Africa and the Middle East. 
"The time has come to turn this vision into reality," said the company's chief executive, Paul van Son. 
"That implies intensive co-operation with many parties and cultures, to create a sound basis for feasible investments into renewable energy technologies and interconnected grids." 
The first stage will be to build massive solar energy fields across North Africa's Sahara desert, utilising concentrated solar power technology (CPT), which uses parabolic mirrors to focus the Sun's rays on containers of water. 
'Pivotal initiative'
The super-heated water will power steam turbines to generate electricity 24 hours a day, 52 weeks of the year.
       The electricity will then be transported great distances to Europe, using hi-tech cables that suffer little conductive loss of power. 
The move was "pivotal" in the transition of Europe, North Africa and the Middle East to sustainable energy supplies, said Mr Van Son. 
Currently there are some small initiatives across Spain and parts of North Africa, but the scale of the Desertec initiative will surpass any other comparable projects. 
Strong desire
The initiative has gained the support of the German government of Angela Merkel, who has already expressed a desire to offset a dependence on Russian gas supplies. 
A number of North African countries have also expressed a strong desire to join the project, the company says, utilising their main sustainable natural resource - the Sun. 
Some of the power generated by the Sahara solar energy fields will also be used by domestic African consumers, Desertec is keen to stress. North Africa has a small population relative to the size of its desert terrain, it says. 
The concept was first announced in 2007 by the Desertec Foundation, with small pilot projects based in North Africa. Prince Hassan of Jordan has previously been mentioned as a big supporter. 
Companies signed up to the consortium include ABB, Abengoa Solar, Cevital, HSH Nordbank, MAN Solar Millennium, Munich Re, M+W Zander, RWE and Schott Solar. 
 

[Starving Steve]

Re: European consortium to invest $400 billion importing solar from the Sahara

Imagine wasting $400 billion on solar energy schemes in North Africa that might someday provide a tiny bit of very expensive electrical energy to a very distant Europe! But this hair-brained scheme provides for nice photo ops for politicians like Andrea Merkel and very visual news segments for BBC-TV.

The best project in the Sahara Desert was the Aswan Dam which provides both plentiful and cheap power to Egypt, not to mention plentiful fresh water. That massive hydro-electric project was successfully engineered more than a generation ago by the USSR as a gift to the people of Egypt--- when the eco-nuts of the world to-day were still wearing diapers. :rolleyes:

[metalman]

Re: European consortium to invest $400 billion importing solar from the Sahara

They aim to supply 15% of Europe's energy needs by 2050 and start supplying in 2015. Basically aim to heat water to drive turbines using concentrated solar power technology. (CPT)

This is one of several articles I've come across recently regarding investments in renewable energy so seems to tie in with EJs prediction that this will be the next bubble further down the road.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/8337735.stm

A sustainable energy initiative that will start with a huge solar project in the Sahara desert has been announced by a consortium of 12 European businesses.
The Desertec Industrial Initiative aims to supply Europe with 15% of its energy needs by 2050. 
Companies who signed up to the $400bn (£240bn) venture include Deutsche Bank, Siemens and the energy provider E.On. 
The consortium, which will be based in Munich, hopes to start supplying Europe with electricity by 2015. 
Desertec Industrial Initiative aims to produce solar-generated electricity with a vast network of power plants and transmission grids across North Africa and the Middle East. 
"The time has come to turn this vision into reality," said the company's chief executive, Paul van Son. 
"That implies intensive co-operation with many parties and cultures, to create a sound basis for feasible investments into renewable energy technologies and interconnected grids." 
The first stage will be to build massive solar energy fields across North Africa's Sahara desert, utilising concentrated solar power technology (CPT), which uses parabolic mirrors to focus the Sun's rays on containers of water. 
'Pivotal initiative'
The super-heated water will power steam turbines to generate electricity 24 hours a day, 52 weeks of the year.
       The electricity will then be transported great distances to Europe, using hi-tech cables that suffer little conductive loss of power. 
The move was "pivotal" in the transition of Europe, North Africa and the Middle East to sustainable energy supplies, said Mr Van Son. 
Currently there are some small initiatives across Spain and parts of North Africa, but the scale of the Desertec initiative will surpass any other comparable projects. 
Strong desire
The initiative has gained the support of the German government of Angela Merkel, who has already expressed a desire to offset a dependence on Russian gas supplies. 
A number of North African countries have also expressed a strong desire to join the project, the company says, utilising their main sustainable natural resource - the Sun. 
Some of the power generated by the Sahara solar energy fields will also be used by domestic African consumers, Desertec is keen to stress. North Africa has a small population relative to the size of its desert terrain, it says. 
The concept was first announced in 2007 by the Desertec Foundation, with small pilot projects based in North Africa. Prince Hassan of Jordan has previously been mentioned as a big supporter. 
Companies signed up to the consortium include ABB, Abengoa Solar, Cevital, HSH Nordbank, MAN Solar Millennium, Munich Re, M+W Zander, RWE and Schott Solar. 
 

oh my gosh! don't tell me they're... they're... they're... planning ahead!

socialists!

don't they see where this is going??? :eek:

solar heated death panels! :eek::eek::eek:

don't they know they are better off marching their people into a dark & cold future warmed and lit by right wing slogans?

sure, sure. we need nukes.

but to have nukes you need a national energy policy ala france or china to back/finance development... nukes are not free market economical... too risky and expensive. in the usa the lawyer fees alone will kill the business.

but the french and chinese are commies!

we can't have an 'energy policy'! that's commie bullshit!

on and on it goes... for most of my life, i'm here to tell ya.

the apt symbol for usa future is a bunch of right wing and left wing wing nuts arguing over a chunk of rotting meat around the last candle in amerika.

[hayekvindicated]

Re: European consortium to invest $400 billion importing solar from the Sahara

Will the Europeans be willing to defend their, ahem, "infrastructure" with gun ships (or tanks) given how "stable" Africa is? What if some tinpot dictator gets the wrong idea and decides to hold the entire continent to hostage? What happens then?

That's usually the kind of the thing that "love the world" socialists don't think about (not do libertarian ideologues).

[mooncliff]

Re: European consortium to invest $400 billion importing solar from the Sahara

Will the Europeans be willing to defend their, ahem, "infrastructure" with gun ships (or tanks) given how "stable" Africa is? What if some tinpot dictator gets the wrong idea and decides to hold the entire continent to hostage? What happens then?

That's usually the kind of the thing that "love the world" socialists don't think about (not do libertarian ideologues).

Hmm, yes, but aren't they trying to hedge their bets against, for example, the Russians cutting off the natural gas supply again, oil price shocks, etc.?

Hawaii is in the process of linking the islands by undersea electrical cable to distribute wind and photovoltaic power. This is supposed to stabilize the electrical supply since, without major cause, HECO manages to blackout all of Honolulu for an entire day about once every decade or so. Being nearly totally dependent on oil is an ongoing risk for Hawaii.

At roughly 1,000 euro per person in the EU, constructing solar thermal plants (which I think is the only way to go for megawatt plants) in Africa does not seem like a lot to spend on diversifying the energy supply.

Maybe they should construct the solar thermal plants in Spain instead around all those empty condos?

The price of photovoltaics is about to collapse by 50 to 75% due to improvements in efficiency and manufacturing, say within 5 years, so from two considerations, residential photovoltaics has distinct advantages: it reduces the transmission loss in long distance cable, which is not negligible, and it distributes the source of the electricity, making it difficult to attack. Just another part of diversifying the energy supply.

It is equally important to switch over to LED bulbs soon. They are getting substantially better by the month and now give the downlight of a 60 watt bulb for about 6 watts. Japan is now in a frenzy about replacing even the compact fluorescents with LED bulbs because that would cut electricity in half for each compact fluorescent bulb replaced, and 90% for each incandescent (actually, more than that if the incandescent is used in an air conditioned building in the summer because the air conditioning system does not have to get rid of the heat from the bulb). Switching from sapphire substrate to metal on silicon substrate is supposed to drop prices to about $5 in less than 5 years. I wouldn't be surprised if that kind of change drops electricity use by 5%. Another part of the puzzle.

The heat pumps in Japan get better and better. They provide air conditioning, dehumidification, and heating as desired. Electricity use can be as low as 300 watts per hour, approximately 6 cents per hour at the rate in Japan of 20 cents per kilowatt-hour, and 3 cents per hour at the typical US rate of 10 cents per kilowatt-hour. Ad campaigns emphasize not the cost of the unit, but how much cheaper it is to operate in the long run. Even my 16 year old unit costs no more than $2 dollars per day, at 20 cents per kilowatt hour, to run. These kinds of efficiency improvements are actually cheaper than anything else that could be done.

Also, a neighbor recently installed a fuel cell running on municipal natural gas. The fuel cell first makes electricity, and the waste heat is used to heat water. Extremely efficient, but still tens of thousands of dollars. Such cogeneration devices could be very useful where it is not sunny because you would get electricity and hot water and space heating from the natural gas.

The photovoltaics are really starting to take off because the feed-in tariff in Japan was just doubled to about 50 cents per kilowatt-hour. This is really difficult to find in the news because this is usually translated from Japanese as "buying power" or "purchasing power" and the term "feed-in tariff" is never used. Japan wants to launch a prototype photoelectric satellite to beam power to the ground as microwaves. Really expensive and not practical, but it is a prototype. Installing solar water heaters makes the most immediate sense. Then, over the next few decades, ramping up the photovoltaics. Peak electricity demand is when it is clear and sunny in August, so that will help meet the peak.

But, yes, I completely agree that while the Sahara is very sunny, there is considerable risk in constructing solar plants there and sending it by cable to Europe. And don't forget that underwater cables get snagged and cut off data transmissions quite often.

The least risk is improved efficiency,
the next is local energy production,
the next would be energy production outside the country but in Europe somewhere, and
the riskiest of all is importing energy from far away, which is what is done now with oil, gas, etc.

[Starving Steve]

Re: European consortium to invest $400 billion importing solar from the Sahara

Imagine wasting $400 billion on solar energy schemes in North Africa that might someday provide a tiny bit of very expensive electrical energy to a very distant Europe! But this hair-brained scheme provides for nice photo ops for politicians like Andrea Merkel and very visual news segments for BBC-TV.

The best project in the Sahara Desert was the Aswan Dam which provides both plentiful and cheap power to Egypt, not to mention plentiful fresh water. That massive hydro-electric project was successfully engineered more than a generation ago by the USSR as a gift to the people of Egypt--- when the eco-nuts of the world to-day were still wearing diapers. :rolleyes:

A footnote for the pot-heads of to-day who worship at the altar of solar power: The Aswan Dam in the Sahara Desert provides 2,100 mega-watts of electric power to Egypt, roughly equivalent to the amount of power from 3 large atomic power plants. Come drought or Nile River flood, the out-put of power is stable thanks to the massive size of Lake Nasser. The electric power is used throughout Egypt with little transmission loss due to distance..... Our parents' generation knew how to solve energy and water problems, something our generation of pot-heads is unable or unwilling to do.

[mooncliff]

Re: European consortium to invest $400 billion importing solar from the Sahara

A footnote for the pot-heads of to-day who worship at the altar of solar power: The Aswan Dam in the Sahara Desert provides 2,100 mega-watts of electric power to Egypt, roughly equivalent to the amount of power from 3 large atomic power plants. The electric power is used throughout Egypt with little transmission loss due to distance..... Our parents' generation knew how to solve energy and water problems, something our generation of pot-heads is unable or unwilling to do.

Yes, hydroelectric resources are already fully exploited in Japan. The Japan Rail lines in Tokyo run mostly off hydroelectric.

There is nothing left to do except massive improvements in efficiency and then diversify into alternatives. That takes decades. It took Japan Rail 20 years of research to cut the energy use of its trains by 50% in one fell swoop. The Yamanote Line is a marvel of regenerative braking and energy efficiency.

[cobben]

Re: European consortium to invest $400 billion importing solar from the Sahara

"Will the Europeans be willing to defend their "

I think the long-term plan is to integrate northern Africa into the EU, there are already a number of projects running that would seem to point to this.

A younger hopefully ambitious population to offset the ageing central Europeans, and empires do tend to want to expand, now don't they. (EU not an empire? take a closer look . . .)

[GRG55]

Re: European consortium to invest $400 billion importing solar from the Sahara

"Will the Europeans be willing to defend their "

I think the long-term plan is to integrate northern Africa into the EU, there are already a number of projects running that would seem to point to this.

A younger hopefully ambitious population to offset the ageing central Europeans, and empires do tend to want to expand, now don't they. (EU not an empire? take a closer look . . .)

Hard to see how the EU is going to embrace Muslim North Africa while, led by France, it is so visibly rejecting Turkey.

And the Turks are now playing hardball with the EU...;)

Turkey to use national currencies in trade with Iran, China

ANKARA, October 28 (RIA Novosti) - Turkey is switching to national currencies in trade with Iran and China, ending dependence on the U.S. dollar and the euro for about 20% of its commodity turnover, local media reported on Wednesday...

[don]

Re: European consortium to invest $400 billion importing solar from the Sahara

As EJ has pointed out, all bubbles need government underpinnings.

from the thread, Alternative Energy: Building a New Future or Reaping Taxpayer subsidies? (selling alt energy tax credits)

Peak Sun Silicon, of Millersburg, sold a $3.25 million tax credit to US Bank for $2.18 million.
Peak Sun also sold a $5.85 million tax credit to two companies: Nordstrom for $2.85 million and Standard Insurance for $2 million.
Solaicx, of Portland, sold a $9.04 million tax credit to US Bank for $6.05 million.
SolarWorld, of Hillsboro, sold an $11 million tax credit to Wal-Mart for $7.37 million.
SolarWorld also sold a $10.96 million tax credit to Flir Systems, of Portland, for $7.34 million.

The Sahara scheme doesn't necessarily have to work...at least not as an energy provider ;)

[cobben]

Re: European consortium to invest $400 billion importing solar from the Sahara

"Hard to see how the EU is going to embrace Muslim North Africa while, led by France, it is so visibly rejecting Turkey. "

When the French Muslims have taken over France, in just a few years . . . :p

[GRG55]

Re: European consortium to invest $400 billion importing solar from the Sahara

Hard to see how the EU is going to embrace Muslim North Africa while, led by France, it is so visibly rejecting Turkey.

And the Turks are now playing hardball with the EU...;)

Turkey to use national currencies in trade with Iran, China

While much of the USA will be watching Game 6 of the World Series coming from Yankee Stadium, this other hardball game is heating up and could eventually become even more exciting...

Turkey's Erdogan slams nuclear sanctions on Iran

ISTANBUL (Reuters) - Turkish Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan said on Saturday that countries opposed to Iran's atomic program should give up their own nuclear weapons and attacked as 'arrogant' the sanctions imposed on Ankara's neighbor.

He also said he wanted the Middle East, and then the whole world, to rid itself of nuclear weapons.

During a trip to Iran this week, Erdogan said he backed Tehran's "right to peaceful nuclear energy" and called its approach in nuclear talks with Western powers "positive."

The trip added to Western concern that NATO's only Muslim member may be shifting its foreign-policy focus toward the Islamic world and turning its back on Western allies...


..."I think that those who take this stance, who want these arrogant sanctions, need to first give these (weapons) up. We shared this opinion with our Iranian friends, our brothers."...

...Erdogan has tried to expand Turkey's influence in the Middle East and make it a regional power since his party, which traces it roots to an Islamist movement, took office in 2002.

Erdogan also reiterated previous remarks that Turkey and Iran have set themselves a target of more than tripling annual bilateral trade by 2011 to $30 billion.

[metalman]

Re: European consortium to invest $400 billion importing solar from the Sahara

While much of the USA will be watching Game 6 of the World Series coming from Yankee Stadium, this other hardball game is heating up and could eventually become even more exciting...

Turkey's Erdogan slams nuclear sanctions on Iran

ISTANBUL (Reuters) - Turkish Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan said on Saturday that countries opposed to Iran's atomic program should give up their own nuclear weapons and attacked as 'arrogant' the sanctions imposed on Ankara's neighbor.

He also said he wanted the Middle East, and then the whole world, to rid itself of nuclear weapons.

During a trip to Iran this week, Erdogan said he backed Tehran's "right to peaceful nuclear energy" and called its approach in nuclear talks with Western powers "positive."

The trip added to Western concern that NATO's only Muslim member may be shifting its foreign-policy focus toward the Islamic world and turning its back on Western allies...


..."I think that those who take this stance, who want these arrogant sanctions, need to first give these (weapons) up. We shared this opinion with our Iranian friends, our brothers."...

...Erdogan has tried to expand Turkey's influence in the Middle East and make it a regional power since his party, which traces it roots to an Islamist movement, took office in 2002.

Erdogan also reiterated previous remarks that Turkey and Iran have set themselves a target of more than tripling annual bilateral trade by 2011 to $30 billion.

more blowback from the iraq war disaster... the gift from gw bush that keeps on giving.

[Starving Steve]

Re: European consortium to invest $400 billion importing solar from the Sahara

Last time I checked, the Iraq War had IMPROVED the lives of people in Iraq, Syria, Lebonon, the Persian Gulf states, and even some improvement in the West Bank of Palestine, if not Gaza. And why is that? The answer is that Hamas, Hesbollah, Al Qaide, and similar Islamo-fascist groups have been dispersed.

This does not mean that the struggle against Islamo-fascism has been won, but it does mean that Islamo-fascists are not quite as popular and as entrenched as they were before Bush invaded Iraq and threw-out the regime of So-Damn-Insane.

I don't believe in nation-building so much as thumping the Islamo-fascists whenever one gets the chance. It is similar to clobbering a hornet that flies into your house. In other words, you never will be able to do-away with hornets, but you should never have to live with them.

If Iran is any indication, I suspect many in the Middle East feel as I do. The vast majority of people in that part of the world would love to see the Islamo-fascists crushed. A peaceful and democratic Middle East is possible, even a peace between Isreal and Palestine.

[metalman]

Re: European consortium to invest $400 billion importing solar from the Sahara

Last time I checked, the Iraq War had IMPROVED the lives of people in Iraq, Syria, Lebonon, the Persian Gulf states, and even some improvement in the West Bank of Palestine, if not Gaza. And why is that? The answer is that Hamas, Hesbollah, Al Qaide, and similar Islamo-fascist groups have been dispersed.

This does not mean that the struggle against Islamo-fascism has been won, but it does mean that Islamo-fascists are not quite as popular and as entrenched as they were before Bush invaded Iraq and threw-out the regime of So-Damn-Insane.

I don't believe in nation-building so much as thumping the Islamo-fascists whenever one gets the chance. It is similar to clobbering a hornet that flies into your house. In other words, you never will be able to do-away with hornets, but you should never have to live with them.

If Iran is any indication, I suspect many in the Middle East feel as I do. The vast majority of people in that part of the world would love to see the Islamo-fascists crushed. A peaceful and democratic Middle East is possible, even a peace between Isreal and Palestine.

appreciate your view. the question is not the intent but the execution.