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  • #16
    Re: Numismatic Liquidation?!

    Why wouldn't the same gangs you fear storm Bullionvault? Their address is published and the "take" would be far greater than looking for targets for home invasion.

    I think that everyone needs to consider how they intend to defend their family and home in these times.

    A brief story: When I was putting myself through college at the University of Miami, in Miami, FL in the early 1980's, I waited tables 5 nights a week to pay tuition and assist my family with bills. I was a young strapping 19 year old that lived at home to keep expenses down. After a particularly late night shift, I slept in one morning, at about 10:30AM, I woke to the sound of breaking glass.

    I stumbled up and went towards the noise. Two guys were breaking the panes of a glass paneled door at the back porch trying to reach through and unlock it to gain entry.

    My father, a marksman and avid bird hunter, had raised his son to respect firearms and be able to use them.

    Suffice to say, one of the guys tasted lead from a Browning 12 GA. while the other ran (only to be later caught by the police a few blocks away).

    I can tell you that I lived in that house until I graduated and my parents remained there for another 5 years afterwards. There was never any problem after that day. Even the milkman was careful to leave milk in the most quiet manner with the bottles in perfect placement and alignment on our stoop.

    Thieves attack what is weak. No thief, gets up in the morning wondering if they are a quicker draw then their target.

    I know many here are gun advocates and have been more vocal about their weapons than myself. But I promise you, everyone of my neighbors knows that I carry a concealed weapon daily, and that my house would be a better one too pass than consider for a robbery.

    Lastly, My brother-in-law is a Sergeant with a South Florida police dept. Due to attrition of officers and no budget to add to the force, a huge upsurge in violent crime and increased work load per officer, the current response time to a 911 call may be over 1 hour.

    I asked him, "what if I call and tell the 911 operator that an intruder is in the house?" He said, "have you been shot or stabbed?" I said, "assume I have been shot" He said, "maybe we could get there in 45 minutes if we aren't already responding to similar calls that came in before yours."

    It may come down to the three "G's"............guns, gold (numismatic or otherwise) and grub.

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: Numismatic Liquidation?!

      Originally posted by Tybee Island View Post
      Why wouldn't the same gangs you fear storm Bullionvault? Their address is published and the "take" would be far greater than looking for targets for home invasion.
      True, but a big bank vault is a much harder nut to crack. Also, any thieves would likely run into the "Goldfinger dilemma".

      We have firearms, and I've no issues if someone was trying to break into the house. Not sure what I'd do in this bizarro-world legal environment. I've heard the dead can't sue.

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: Numismatic Liquidation?!

        I like semi numismatic coins, that is, double eagles and so forth, foreign gold, that is old, especially sovs. If you are traveling, these are collectibles and therefore you aren't moving money around, but moving your collection which I think is a better position to be in. And the premiums aren't very large either.

        I bought quite a few coins like this at just a bit over spot, and they are fun to own and look at (but I keep them at the bank in a safe deposit box.)

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        • #19
          Re: Numismatic Liquidation?!

          Our information is that a large numismatics firm made a major gold purchase that it began to liquidate about a month ago. This temporarily suppressed the prices of nearly all $20 denomination gold numismatics, except MS63 grade coins. Since then prices and premiums have risen. Rare, high grade gold numismatics have performed especially well.
          Ed.

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          • #20
            Re: Numismatic Liquidation?!

            Originally posted by Tybee Island View Post
            Why wouldn't the same gangs you fear storm Bullionvault? Their address is published and the "take" would be far greater than looking for targets for home invasion.

            I think that everyone needs to consider how they intend to defend their family and home in these times.

            A brief story: When I was putting myself through college at the University of Miami, in Miami, FL in the early 1980's, I waited tables 5 nights a week to pay tuition and assist my family with bills. I was a young strapping 19 year old that lived at home to keep expenses down. After a particularly late night shift, I slept in one morning, at about 10:30AM, I woke to the sound of breaking glass.

            I stumbled up and went towards the noise. Two guys were breaking the panes of a glass paneled door at the back porch trying to reach through and unlock it to gain entry.

            My father, a marksman and avid bird hunter, had raised his son to respect firearms and be able to use them.

            Suffice to say, one of the guys tasted lead from a Browning 12 GA. while the other ran (only to be later caught by the police a few blocks away).

            I can tell you that I lived in that house until I graduated and my parents remained there for another 5 years afterwards. There was never any problem after that day. Even the milkman was careful to leave milk in the most quiet manner with the bottles in perfect placement and alignment on our stoop.

            Thieves attack what is weak. No thief, gets up in the morning wondering if they are a quicker draw then their target.

            I know many here are gun advocates and have been more vocal about their weapons than myself. But I promise you, everyone of my neighbors knows that I carry a concealed weapon daily, and that my house would be a better one too pass than consider for a robbery.

            Lastly, My brother-in-law is a Sergeant with a South Florida police dept. Due to attrition of officers and no budget to add to the force, a huge upsurge in violent crime and increased work load per officer, the current response time to a 911 call may be over 1 hour.

            I asked him, "what if I call and tell the 911 operator that an intruder is in the house?" He said, "have you been shot or stabbed?" I said, "assume I have been shot" He said, "maybe we could get there in 45 minutes if we aren't already responding to similar calls that came in before yours."

            It may come down to the three "G's"............guns, gold (numismatic or otherwise) and grub.
            I want to respond to this. I found this terrific site about self defense:
            http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/burglary.html
            The take home I got from this is that shooting crooks that are not pointing a gun at you or in the act of stabbing you will get you thrown in jail for a long time ( in my home state of California at least). Also, and I think this is the crucial take home, most burglars are professionals and will break in when you are not at home. They like homes with guns because then they get to take your gun. They prefer home with burglar alarms( 2.6 times more likely to be robbed) because there is more stuff to steal. You are not doing yourself or your neighbors any favors by advertising your gun ownership.

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: Numismatic Liquidation?!

              Fred: Thank you for your input. My experience has been counter to what you are reporting. The proof is in the pudding, and I can tell you that bullion is far more liquid than the numismatics. My numismatic portfolio was heavily weighted to the high end with a fair number of MS 65's, MS 66's among a smaller percentage of MS63's (purchased 5 years ago).

              It takes a certain type of buyer to pay $3,000-$8,000 for an oz. of gold.

              If you aren't in the market actually looking for bids, the quoted retail values that you see on the grading sites are too optimistic and unobtainable.

              It is a little like the NAR quoting housing values.

              I deal in a fair amount of gold and my experience has been that the bullion coins move in the blink of an eye where the numismatics take a great deal of work and never trade at retail quotes. The dealers that are placing these with gold IRA's always take a cut of the action equal to 1-1.5 %.

              Also, the premiums on all of the graded contemporary coins have fallen lately, This would be the MS 70 and PF 70 proofs of the very best years of American Gold eagles.

              I am delighted with my decision to trade in my numismatics for bullion. We will see together how it plays out.

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Numismatic Liquidation?!

                I am a transplant from Manhattan and London prior to that (leaving Florida in 1985).

                I now live in Georgia, it is the rare occasion that someone doesn't have a gun.

                Until you are faced with having to protect yourself, as in the experience I described, you really don't understand that it comes down to self reliance.

                Thank you for your input, but I wouldn't rely on your site too heavily.....dead men tell no lies.

                Nonetheless, this discussion was about numismatic coins vs. bullion and should remain so.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Numismatic coins have been in a bear market for decades. An example of a numismatic tragedy is the 1955-S penny, worth 20cents bid to any coin dealer in 1960, now worth 2cents (two cents) in 2009.

                  Some of the reasons for the bear market in numismatic coins is that they are valued in cash, and cash is not quite king anymore; cash is inflating away to nothing. Second, as cash goes down-the-drain, coins are melted for their metal value, but numismatic items are held-back from the melting pot. So, over time, numismatic coins become relatively common, at least in terms of what is left to collect.

                  A great numismatic misunderstanding was the hoarding of CC silver dollars, many of which are downright common now--- and always really were downright common. Meanwhile, the 1893-S, 1895-S, 1903-S, and 1904-S were all but ignored by coin collectors because their mintages were high, yet these silver dollars were all melted during previous runs on silver, especially during the run on silver immediately after WWI. These are the great rarities of U.S. silver dollars, with high grade: 1892-S, 1894-S, 1896-S, and 1903-O also being scarce.

                  But as the economic tragedy of inflation unfolds, pure and simple bullion will be the money in-demand, not collectables. However, semi-gold and semi-silver may also be in-demand in the U.S. because of the issue of a government confiscation of bullion; numismatic coins might be exempt from such a confiscation.

                  If numismatic coins would be exempt from confiscation, pre-1965 silver coin bags and rolls of pre-1934 $10 and $20 gold pieces may be the best "collectable" of all. And the gains in cash-value of these "collectables" are tax-deferred until you sell them, but who in their right mind would ever want to sell them?

                  The story of gold and silver over my lifetime of 61 years is that these metals just keep getting lovelier. And the reason for this is the arrogance and profound stupidity of the Federal Reserve Bank in Washington. The Bank is unwilling to make the paper dollar scarce. :rolleyes:
                  Last edited by Starving Steve; October 30, 2009, 01:20 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Numismatic Liquidation?!

                    "EJ had commented that he held some numismatics too and I thought at the time that they would hold up better then they have."

                    Truly rare items or preferably unique ones will always find a buyer at a premium over spot, just perhaps not at the premium you paid previously. The semi-rare stuff is toast.

                    Ideally one would like to sell off the bullion at the botttom of the depression and invest in rare items at near-bullion prices, but that might not be so easy to time.
                    Justice is the cornerstone of the world

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Numismatic Liquidation?!

                      Maybe I was unclear.

                      No argument that gold bullion is far more liquid than numismatics.

                      As far as gold numismatic prices, we were aware that recently, but only for a brief period, a wide range of $20 gold numismatics fell in price even as gold bullion prices increased in price, all except for MS63 grade. The reason is that a company took possession of approximately $30 million of these coins. They took several weeks to sell through, during which time prices fell.

                      If you looked at this data two weeks ago you'd have seen several columns of red. Today you do not.

                      That is all I was trying to say.


                      Originally posted by Tybee Island View Post
                      Fred: Thank you for your input. My experience has been counter to what you are reporting. The proof is in the pudding, and I can tell you that bullion is far more liquid than the numismatics. My numismatic portfolio was heavily weighted to the high end with a fair number of MS 65's, MS 66's among a smaller percentage of MS63's (purchased 5 years ago).

                      It takes a certain type of buyer to pay $3,000-$8,000 for an oz. of gold.

                      If you aren't in the market actually looking for bids, the quoted retail values that you see on the grading sites are too optimistic and unobtainable.

                      It is a little like the NAR quoting housing values.

                      I deal in a fair amount of gold and my experience has been that the bullion coins move in the blink of an eye where the numismatics take a great deal of work and never trade at retail quotes. The dealers that are placing these with gold IRA's always take a cut of the action equal to 1-1.5 %.

                      Also, the premiums on all of the graded contemporary coins have fallen lately, This would be the MS 70 and PF 70 proofs of the very best years of American Gold eagles.

                      I am delighted with my decision to trade in my numismatics for bullion. We will see together how it plays out.
                      Ed.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Numismatic Liquidation?!

                        Fred:

                        So noted, what happens when a party does something similar in the future? It would appear that the market for numismatics is very thin, and any hefty player can sway prices. $30 Million is not a lot of money and it seems that the impact on this narrow segment of the market was profound.

                        For what its worth, my MS 63's were affected alongside the other higher grade coins that I was selling into the same market.

                        Thank you for your clarification and lets see how this plays out together.

                        Again, actual selling experience trumps the statistical graphs (how are such data points gathered in such an obscure area of the market which is not prone to lots of independent verification?) and two dealers that I know who sell upwards of $300 million of bullion per year each have reported the same independently.

                        Next time you have news of a whale making a move, please tip me off.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Numismatic Liquidation?!

                          Originally posted by Tybee Island View Post
                          Why wouldn't the same gangs you fear storm Bullionvault? Their address is published and the "take" would be far greater than looking for targets for home invasion.
                          BV don't store or own the bullion. You own it, and Via-Mat store it. They have vaults and armed guards and all that shit. And anyway, the vault is in Zurich. Zurich is not about to go feral, even if chicago might.
                          It's Economics vs Thermodynamics. Thermodynamics wins.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: Numismatic Liquidation?!

                            Originally posted by Starving Steve View Post
                            Numismatic coins have been in a bear market for decades. An example of a numismatic tragedy is the 1955-S penny, worth 20cents bid to any coin dealer in 1960, now worth 2cents (two cents) in 2009.
                            http://cgi.ebay.com/1955-S-Lincoln-W...item2c5162ab1f
                            Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read. -Groucho

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: Numismatic Liquidation?!

                              The 2c bid on 1955-S cents is to most coin shops, NOT the bid on e-Bay.

                              And that $1.04 retail bid on e-Bay includes free shipping which means that the seller probably wants a contact with a retail buyer (a pigeon) so that more numismatic tragedies can be sold to him/her in future.... I can just imagine the numismatic treasures in store for this buyer: items like the rare 1951-S nickel which used to fetch 20cents each in 1960 or the 1950-D nickel which used to fetch $12 back in 1960. (Yes, 12 silver dollars at that time for one stupid Jefferson nickel alleged to be rare, and now worth maybe a buck or two in Bernanke paper dollars, if you are lucky.)
                              Last edited by Starving Steve; October 30, 2009, 09:00 PM.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: Numismatic Liquidation?!

                                Originally posted by grapejelly View Post
                                I like semi numismatic coins, that is, double eagles and so forth, foreign gold, that is old, especially sovs. If you are traveling, these are collectibles and therefore you aren't moving money around, ...
                                Master grapejelly's back!

                                Regarding the point above, Gold Maple have a $50 legal tender value, which means that you can carry * in theory * over $200,000 worth of fiat, while remaining under the "$10,000" (legal tender allowed for travel) threshold. Or perhaps I am missing something GJ?

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