is there a "Wow, we are turning into a third world country thread?"

[audrey_girl]

maybe create one to start collecting stories like this?

UC Berkeley to admit more out-of-state students:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...89U6.DTL&tsp=1

or this:

Foreclosures Force Ex-Homeowners to Turn to Shelter

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/19/bu...O10z%20VHH81SQ

[karim0028]

Re: is there a "Wow, we are turning into a third world country thread?"

Well, you cant forget to add GRG's "airlines tell former employees to go dumpster diving" thread......

[Anon21456]

Re: is there a "Wow, we are turning into a third world country thread?"

The thread title is somehow funny.

[Thailandnotes]

Re: is there a "Wow, we are turning into a third world country thread?"

Went to Central America in the early 80’s. My wife and I took the train from the west coast to the east. It broke down for six hours in the morning in the mountains, so the trip was mostly later on in the evening after dark. There were no lights in the train. No lights outside the train. We were flying along in the pitch black for several hours. Finally we made a short stop in a tiny town. Out the left door of the train was a pool hall, six tables, the whole place crowded with rowdy drinking. Out the right door was a religious revival/concert, men in suits, women in dresses, singing loud enough to bother the guys trying to concentrate on sinking a ball. My neck got sore.

"is there a "Wow, we are turning into a third world country thread?"

no, but you might have started one.

[World Traveler]

Re: is there a "Wow, we are turning into a third world country thread?"

To me, we're slipping badly, but we're not there yet. Two keyposts that catch my attention.

1. Debt peonage.

Many Americans don't realize or acknowledge this, but they're really debt peons, who incur huge debts to get an education, buy a house, pay for daily living expenses, etc. And they pay a lot of interest on that debt to maintain their standard of living.

And why are they debt peons? Because average wages have not kept up with normal living expenses and debt makes up the difference. And middle-class and poor Americans have very little power in today's America to change things, due to a corrupt financial and political system. Just like in the 3rd world.

2. Elitie, super-rich control most of nation's wealth

And rig the nation's control levers to further consolidate their power and wealth. No need to go into details on this with iTulip crowd, it's been well-documented. Again, just like the 3rd world.

[c1ue]

Re: is there a "Wow, we are turning into a third world country thread?"

Inspired by some of the work bart has posted, I'm putting together a historical view of poverty levels vs. unemployment.

rising unemployment = rising poverty, and the unemployment levels we're seeing are going to translate to poverty levels closer to what we see in 3rd world nations. How close, that's what is scary...

An excerpt from the '70s stagflation era:

Year	Real GDP Change	Productivity Increase	Unemployment Rate	Inflation Rate	Poverty Rate	Individuals in Poverty (000s)
1976	5.3	3.1	7.7	5.8	11.8	24975
1977	4.6	1.7	7.1	6.4	11.6	24720
1978	5.6	1.1	6.1	7	11.4	24497
1979	3.2	0	5.8	8.3	11.7	26072
1980	-0.2	-0.2	7.1	9.1	13	29272
1981	2.5	2.1	7.6	9.4	14	31822
1982	-1.9	-0.8	9.7	6.1	15	34398
1983	4.5	3.6	9.6	4	15.2	35303
1984	7.2	2.7	7.5	3.8	14.4	33700
1985	4.1	2.2	7.2	3	14	33054

Note how a trough to peak change in unemployment of +3.9% yielded a poverty rate change of 3.3%, with a trough to peak of 3.8%.

Suffice it to say that if the same behavior holds true for the present period with peak unemployment reaching the iTulip predicted 11%, the poverty rate will likely exceed 17% sometime thereafter.

Of course it could be much worse: the high inflation years of the late '70s/early to mid 80s had a relatively low unemployment rate change: +1.3%, +0.5%, +2.1% whereas 2008 to 2009 will see a jump of at least 2% and possibly as high as 3% with an accompanying unemployment trough to peak of +5.4%.

This would yield a 17.7% poverty rate using similar behavior to the stagflation era.

Not very impressive for the richest nation in the world.

[thriftyandboringinohio]

Re: is there a "Wow, we are turning into a third world country thread?"

Went to Central America in the early 80’s. My wife and I took the train from the west coast to the east. It broke down for six hours in the morning in the mountains, so the trip was mostly later on in the evening after dark. There were no lights in the train. No lights outside the train. We were flying along in the pitch black for several hours. Finally we made a short stop in a tiny town. Out the left door of the train was a pool hall, six tables, the whole place crowded with rowdy drinking. Out the right door was a religious revival/concert, men in suits, women in dresses, singing loud enough to bother the guys trying to concentrate on sinking a ball. My neck got sore.

"is there a "Wow, we are turning into a third world country thread?"

no, but you might have started one.

I've felt this for some years as I listen to the radical right-wing noise machine. Seems that when their well-worn talking points are pursued to their logical conclusions, the above is exactly where we end up. They do seem to be succeeding. I guess congratulations are due to Grover Norquist and Newt Gingrich.

[c1ue]

Re: is there a "Wow, we are turning into a third world country thread?"

I've felt this for some years as I listen to the radical right-wing noise machine. Seems that when their well-worn talking points are pursued to their logical conclusions, the above is exactly where we end up. They do seem to be succeeding. I guess congratulations are due to Grover Norquist and Newt Gingrich.

I think the saga of the financial deep capture of the US government - starting with Clinton/Rubin and extending through Bush/Paulson on towards our present Obama/Geithner would seem to indicate more than just a 'right wing' involvement in what is going on.

[karim0028]

Re: is there a "Wow, we are turning into a third world country thread?"

To me, we're slipping badly, but we're not there yet. Two keyposts that catch my attention.

1. Debt peonage.

Many Americans don't realize or acknowledge this, but they're really debt peons, who incur huge debts to get an education, buy a house, pay for daily living expenses, etc. And they pay a lot of interest on that debt to maintain their standard of living.

And why are they debt peons? Because average wages have not kept up with normal living expenses and debt makes up the difference. And middle-class and poor Americans have very little power in today's America to change things, due to a corrupt financial and political system. Just like in the 3rd world.

2. Elitie, super-rich control most of nation's wealth

And rig the nation's control levers to further consolidate their power and wealth. No need to go into details on this with iTulip crowd, it's been well-documented. Again, just like the 3rd world.

I've traveled and seen as well as experienced first hand third world countries..... If we call what we see today a third world country; we need to get out more .... "Third world" usually refers to the govt and what services it provides... The interesting thing is i think we are not far off in that respect.

But folks in "third world" i think have it better than we do here in the US... Folks in the US are like rats in a cage with drapes hiding the cage bars.... So everything "seems" peachy.

Debt peons, true. But, through the magic of media, not many people realize it. We are debt slaves pure and simple. Just look at how quickly you can be out on the street in the US if you lose your job - most people, 2 months and they could be homeless.... This even includes educated folks with degrees and moderate to high incomes.

In regard to sense of social/individual security, i think third world countries actually have it better than we do... The third world country i'm talking about is Egypt and there, folks can be unemployed for years and still have a roof over their heads.... Better family structure, better social structure. YOU MAY BE POOR but your NOT on the street; you actually have your dignity....

[touchring]

Re: is there a "Wow, we are turning into a third world country thread?"

I've traveled and seen as well as experienced first hand third world countries..... If we call what we see today a third world country; we need to get out more .... "Third world" usually refers to the govt and what services it provides... The interesting thing is i think we are not far off in that respect.

But folks in "third world" i think have it better than we do here in the US... Folks in the US are like rats in a cage with drapes hiding the cage bars.... So everything "seems" peachy.

Debt peons, true. But, through the magic of media, not many people realize it. We are debt slaves pure and simple. Just look at how quickly you can be out on the street in the US if you lose your job - most people, 2 months and they could be homeless.... This even includes educated folks with degrees and moderate to high incomes.

In regard to sense of social/individual security, i think third world countries actually have it better than we do... The third world country i'm talking about is Egypt and there, folks can be unemployed for years and still have a roof over their heads.... Better family structure, better social structure. YOU MAY BE POOR but your NOT on the street; you actually have your dignity....

Have you been to South East Asia, have you been to China?

How third world is East Coast of China as compared to the USA? They are some distance behind, but these people are catching up really fast, in all respects, technology, working attitude, productivity, education, everything.

[Mn_Mark]

Re: is there a "Wow, we are turning into a third world country thread?"

I've felt this for some years as I listen to the radical right-wing noise machine.

If you think that what passes for a conservative in this country - which is almost always a moderately fiscally-conservative person who is socially liberal in most ways except for opposing abortion and homosexual "marriage" - is a "right wing radical", then you are really living in a cocoon. You have no idea what an actual radical right-wing would be like. Folks like you who characterize people as bland and inoffensive as Newt Gingrich as the "radical right wing" are doing as much to raise the noise level and destroy civility in this country as anything Fox News purportedly does. I mean if Newt Gingrich is the "radical right wing", who the hell qualifies as just the plain "right wing"? Hillary Clinton?

[we_are_toast]

Re: is there a "Wow, we are turning into a third world country thread?"

One of the things I've noticed in 3rd world countries is that the people who are hopelessly unemployed always try to start their own micro-type businesses. They do car repair in their garage, or taxi service, or sewing, or most of all, food services. I'll be looking to see how many street corner/garage businesses start to pop up around the country. Many of them will be cash businesses in a growing underground economy and will be barely big enough to scratch out a meager existence. They won't want much to do with the government so I suspect the unemployment numbers won't be counting them.

[mememonkey]

Re: is there a "Wow, we are turning into a third world country thread?"

If you think that what passes for a conservative in this country - which is almost always a moderately fiscally-conservative person who is socially liberal in most ways except for opposing abortion and homosexual "marriage" - is a "right wing radical", then you are really living in a cocoon. You have no idea what an actual radical right-wing would be like. Folks like you who characterize people as bland and inoffensive as Newt Gingrich as the "radical right wing" are doing as much to raise the noise level and destroy civility in this country as anything Fox News purportedly does. I mean if Newt Gingrich is the "radical right wing", who the hell qualifies as just the plain "right wing"? Hillary Clinton?

Yes, I consider Hillary Clinton to be 'plain right wing' or right wing light.

The scale has shifted so far to the right in traditional terms that we've lost touch with the original basis. As out of touch as the morons that fox news is stoking and poking with the notion that Obama is a socialist.
O is a corporatist center right tool of the banking interests. Voted for patriot act, both wars, wiretapping etc. like a marketing wet dream he's a convenient cipher to hang one's hopes for 'change' on. His actions betray a continued course for the tight integration of business and government. He is the friendly well spoken face of kleptocratic oligarchy, the sequel

mememonkey

[bobola]

Re: is there a "Wow, we are turning into a third world country thread?"

Three characteristics common to poor, Third World countries are a high level of debt, an income distribution concentrated in the top 1% of the population, and an economy based on export of raw materials and import of manufactured products. By these three measures alone the United States is slowly but blithely marching toward Third World status.

The U.S., aside from its military hardware that is sold for the better destruction of whole swaths of the world, is increasingly becoming a junkyard nation that exports its trash and raw materials in abandon and imports all the goodies it no longer produces. A tale of comfy slippers brought me to that observation.

http://www.swans.com/library/art13/ga238.html

[Starving Steve]

Re: is there a "Wow, we are turning into a third world country thread?"

maybe create one to start collecting stories like this?

UC Berkeley to admit more out-of-state students:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...89U6.DTL&tsp=1

or this:

Foreclosures Force Ex-Homeowners to Turn to Shelter

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/19/bu...O10z%20VHH81SQ

I should have symmmmmmmmmpathy for those foreclosed out of their homes?

Weren't these some of the same people involved in those liar-loans arranged by the maestro, Alan Greenspan? They didn't know that house prices could go down? Or they didn't know that someday they might lose their job or get sick? They didn't think that someday there might be a reckoning for Reaganomics, or they didn't care to know, especially when interest rates were low, and their downpayment ( their skin in the game ) was next-to-nothing.

Symmmmmmmmpathy for the people who bet on windmills and solar panels as America's salvation?

Symmmmmmmpathy for the people who trusted the free market, who preached market-based solutions to problems like aging, unemployment, and healthcare?

Symmmmmmmmmpathy for the laid-off senior teachers who ran the public schools back-to-basics under George Bush, back to English-only, back to white history and American nationalism?

No, Audrey, I am rather sitting-back now, and I am enjoying this reckoning. And while Greenpeace calls me "a climate-change criminal", I am sitting-back and collecting my dividends from oil and gas trusts. My atomic energy stocks are looking better now, too.

Yes, Audrey, I am still starving in East Sooke, but at least I will enjoy "respectable poverty" during these times because I prepared for these bad years. I saved and skrimpt. And I planned for these times while others around me partied, divorced, drank lattes, and bought Hummers.