Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Gold fair price - $815 an ounce

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Gold fair price - $815 an ounce

    here is an argument by Paul van Eeden:

    We can calculate the percentage change in the US money supply on a year-over-year basis for each month, and then calculate a rolling 12-month average of the monthly, year-over-year changes (link). The average increase in the US money supply over the past twelve months, on that basis, has been 8.44%. That is a very high rate of monetary inflation for the United States. For example, the average inflation rate during the 1970s was 8.33% based on the increase in the Actual Money Supply.

    To correctly analyze gold's value vis-à-vis the dollar we also have to consider the inflation rate of the gold supply. The value of gold declines in proportion to the net amount of gold that is added to the above ground supply of gold just like dollar inflation devalues the dollar. While I don't yet have all the gold production and consumption data for 2009 to complete the calculation, I estimate that the gold inflation rate could be around 1.5% for the year.

    For a quick and dirty answer we can subtract the expected gold inflation rate from the dollar's inflation rate (~8.5% less ~1.5%) to arrive at a rough guide to what gold's average value for 2009 could be in terms of US dollars. The average value of gold was $762 an ounce in 2008. If we now add ~7% to that we arrive at an estimate of $815 an ounce as the average value of gold in terms of US dollars for 2009.
    The market appears to be too fearful of inflation and has factored too much potential future inflation into the gold price. The Fed clearly announced that it would end the monetization of Treasury debt by the end of October this year and the monetization of agency debt in the fist quarter of next year. That means that in six months' time the Fed will stop creating inflation. I realize that the FOMC could decide to extend the monetization of debt, but at this time we have no reason to believe that it will. Therefore it seems to me that the current bout of Fed manufactured inflation is coming to an end.

    The US government, however, will continue to run a massive deficit that has to be financed with the issuance of Treasury debt. Assuming the Fed stops supporting the bond market and the Treasury keeps issuing record quantities of new debt, we can expect to see US interest rates start moving up.

    The current level of interest rates in the US is historically, and unnaturally low. Interest rates will rise. It's a question of "when", not "if". Given that the Fed has announced it will stop supporting interest rates in six months, and that the market is forward looking, it could be sooner rather than later.

    Rising interest rates could be positive for the dollar in spite of the massive issuances of US Treasury debt, and that could put downward pressure on the gold price since the gold price moves inversely to the dollar's exchange rate.

    So in spite of the fact that the Fed has been inflating the US money supply by monetizing debt, and in spite of the fact that dollar-bearishness is in abundant supply, and that the US dollar is very likely losing its status as the sole reserve currency, there is a good chance that US interest rates will have to rise and that could cause a rally in the US dollar and a decline in the gold price.
    Given that the gold price is trading at a 25% premium to its fair value and that we can imagine several scenarios whereby the US dollar could rally and the gold price could fall, it seems to me that betting on a higher gold price right now is merely a bet on the Greater Fool Theory. That is not to say that the gold price could not continue to rally - markets can remain irrational far longer than rational people ever imagine they would. Personally, though, I have no interest in buying an over-priced asset in the hope that it will become even more over priced - not even gold.
    http://www.gold-speculator.com/paul-...-now-what.html
    Last edited by skyson; October 15, 2009, 10:09 AM.

  • #2
    Re: Gold fair price - $815 an ounce

    I have great respect for Paul van Eeden. He was one one the first people I came accross who led me to believe gold even though it looked horrible, was a good investment. He is never a raging bull, and he was correct to tell people to sell minors during the recent asset deflation. At that time he was a raging bear, and scared the s... out of me. Unfortunatly I saw his interview much too late, and would have had to sell near the lows.

    He uses what he calls actual money supply rather than M3 or total money supply. Without quoting him, Bart had pointed out to me he didn't think that was a good idea. I think if M3 or TMS were used the fair value of gold would be much higher than his $850 price.

    Having said that, I still read him and enjoy his opinions very much.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Gold fair price - $815 an ounce

      reason #3478 why the gold price will fall. add to 3477 earlier explanations made up over the past 8 yrs.

      'The Fed clearly announced that it would end the monetization of Treasury debt by the end of October this year and the monetization of agency debt in the fist quarter of next year.
      fist quarter is an apt name for it when unemployment insurance runs out for millions in q1...

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Gold fair price - $815 an ounce

        I used to read Paul a lot. PvE acts as if US money supply is the ONLY money supply that matters.

        And ignores historic periods where Gold didn't track inflation ...

        Monovariate thinking in a world of multivariate causation

        Originally posted by skyson View Post
        here is an argument by Paul van Eeden:

        http://www.gold-speculator.com/paul-...-now-what.html

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Gold fair price - $815 an ounce

          Why does he think gold was fairly valued at $762 in 2008? Such an arbitrary starting point makes for a worthless conclusion IMO.
          "...the western financial system has already failed. The failure has just not yet been realized, while the system remains confident that it is still alive." Jesse

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Gold fair price - $815 an ounce

            Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
            I used to read Paul a lot. PvE acts as if US money supply is the ONLY money supply that matters.

            And ignores historic periods where Gold didn't track inflation ...

            Monovariate thinking in a world of multivariate causation

            I think because he is tracking the price of gold in US dollars, he is only concerned with US money supply.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Gold fair price - $815 an ounce

              Originally posted by rjwjr View Post
              Why does he think gold was fairly valued at $762 in 2008? Such an arbitrary starting point makes for a worthless conclusion IMO.

              I think he starts all his calculations from the 70's

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Gold fair price - $815 an ounce

                This thread reminds me of what Finster said about gold priced in terms of a basket of commodities per the Dow Jones UBS spot commodity index.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Gold fair price - $815 an ounce

                  Originally posted by rjwjr View Post
                  Why does he think gold was fairly valued at $762 in 2008? Such an arbitrary starting point makes for a worthless conclusion IMO.
                  this guy wrote in 2003 saying that gold was worth $700 in 2002. i have no idea why he thinks $762 was fair value in 2008.

                  here was his careful analysis in 2003. in this article he starts his calculation back from the 1920s, and addresses why he only uses US money supply to value gold. his opinion is worthy of consideration:
                  http://www.paulvaneeden.com/The.Gold.Price

                  using Fed money supply data in 2002, 2008(Dec), 2009(Dec), with his method(fair value $35/oz in 1947.) based on his 2002 gold valuation, i got gold price of $986.94/oz(2008) and $1016.47/oz(2009). pretty accurate, eh?
                  http://www.federalreserve.gov/releas...st/h6hist1.txt
                  Last edited by skyson; October 15, 2009, 10:21 PM. Reason: add content

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Gold fair price - $815 an ounce

                    Originally posted by skyson View Post
                    this guy wrote in 2003 saying that gold was worth $700 in 2002. i have no idea why he thinks $762 was fair value in 2008.

                    here was his careful analysis in 2003. in this article he starts his calculation back from the 1920s, and addresses why he only uses US money supply to value gold. his opinion is worthy of consideration:
                    http://www.paulvaneeden.com/The.Gold.Price

                    using Fed money supply data in 2002, 2008(Dec), 2009(Dec), with his method(fair value $35/oz in 1947.) based on his 2002 gold valuation, i got gold price of $986.94/oz(2008) and $1016.47/oz(2009). pretty accurate, eh?
                    http://www.federalreserve.gov/releas...st/h6hist1.txt
                    cool, man! did you make an excel spreadsheet that uses his gold price formula?

                    Au[n] =Au[n-1](M3[n]/M3[n-1])(GP[n-1] /GP[n]) {Au = gold price; M3 = money supply; GP = gold production}.

                    what m3 values did you use for m3 after mar 2006?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Gold fair price - $815 an ounce

                      Originally posted by metalman View Post
                      cool, man! did you make an excel spreadsheet that uses his gold price formula?

                      Au[n] =Au[n-1](M3[n]/M3[n-1])(GP[n-1] /GP[n]) {Au = gold price; M3 = money supply; GP = gold production}.

                      what m3 values did you use for m3 after mar 2006?
                      sorry, my bad. i was speed reading and missed the importance of deferantiating different money supply measures.

                      Pauls' $700 valuation in 2002 was based on the M3 money supply. My calculation of 2008, 2009 valuations were based on M2 money supply, which implies the current market price is way below its actual worth if as widely speculated the M3 would shoot straight up after 2006.

                      of course, we all know M3 is not a reliable indicator, and that was why the FED stopped publishing it. anyway, the FED's chief objectives are stablizing the market and serve the public accurate economic data, right?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Gold fair price - $815 an ounce

                        Originally posted by skyson View Post
                        sorry, my bad. i was speed reading and missed the importance of deferantiating different money supply measures.

                        Pauls' $700 valuation in 2002 was based on the M3 money supply. My calculation of 2008, 2009 valuations were based on M2 money supply, which implies the current market price is way below its actual worth if as widely speculated the M3 would shoot straight up after 2006.

                        of course, we all know M3 is not a reliable indicator, and that was why the FED stopped publishing it. anyway, the FED's chief objectives are stablizing the market and serve the public accurate economic data, right?
                        bart's m3 shows m3 way down...

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Gold fair price - $815 an ounce

                          Originally posted by skyson View Post
                          here is an argument by Paul van Eeden:

                          http://www.gold-speculator.com/paul-...-now-what.html
                          I don't worry too much about what the fair price might be.

                          Though by my calculation, taking into account the number of ounces of gold owned by the federal reserve and the net foreign debt obligations of the federal government, a fair price seems more likely to be between $12000 and $18000, depending on whether one counts U.S. agency debt (mainly mortgages) held abroad as part of federal debt - which it in effect is now that it is more explicitly 'guaranteed' by the federal government -

                          My primary focus from month to month is the intermediate and primary trend of the gold price:
                          Attached Files

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Gold fair price - $815 an ounce

                            Originally posted by Dr.No View Post
                            a fair price seems more likely to be between $12000 and $18000, depending on whether one counts U.S. agency debt (mainly mortgages) held abroad as part of federal debt - which it in effect is now that it is more explicitly 'guaranteed' by the federal government
                            Is this a recommendation to buy?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Gold fair price - $815 an ounce

                              Originally posted by lsa420 View Post
                              Is this a recommendation to buy?
                              Yes! And the chart confirms gold's most likely direction.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X