The red star is rising: China showing off her might

[metalman]

Re: The red star is rising: China showing off her might

Change has come.

our police state kids are better than their police state kids!

[GRG55]

Re: The red star is rising: China showing off her might

Hmm, communist in name only, as we are capitalists in name only?

Think of it as a giant global convergence exercise...:rolleyes:

I am not too concerned...I look good in red...

[xela]

Re: The red star is rising: China showing off her might

Next their claiming having invented pasta, too .. oh the humanity!
Ah well.. more pics http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/200..._60_years.html

[Yaowarat]

Re: The red star is rising: China showing off her might

Intimidating it was to see the strident authoritarianism on display - bristling missiles and armed men.

Then again, imagine how it must feel to have a US marine point a gun in your face at an Iraq road block or see a US drone bomb a wedding in Afghanistan.

[flintlock]

Re: The red star is rising: China showing off her might

The Soviets used to stage these dog and pony shows as well.

[media][/media]I think this is designed to intimidate their own people as much as the rest of the world.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...0929-voa21.htm

Bernard Cole of the U.S. National Defense University.
"I really believe that the number one national security goal in China is simply keeping the Chinese Communist Party in power," said Bernard Cole.

These folks knew how to parade also:
[media][/media]

[skyson]

Re: The red star is rising: China showing off her might

I think this is designed to intimidate their own people as much as the rest of the world.

Hmmm...with "air carier killers", strategic nuclear missiles, and nuclear submarines, who do you think the object of intimidation is? Does it cross your mind it possibly serves as the deterrent for the most hated aggressor in the world, suck the blood out of everybody else mafia boss, and the most desperated debtor - USA?

[skyson]

Re: The red star is rising: China showing off her might

come on guys, do you honestly think comparing China with USSR, and Hitler German fair? Does China export revolution? Does China encourage and participate in ethnic cleansing? Does China ever try or intend to dominate the world?

your deep rooted fear about the rising East is unappreciated, and unreasonable. get used to it. everyone deserves a fair chance in this world. they earn this with sweat and blood, and play by the rules. if you still bury your head in the sand, you are no better than those "sheeples" living in former USSR and Hitler German!

the Chinese have come a long way. the human history has never witnessed a country advance with such a speed, on such a scale, and by peaceful means. it is remarkable. what is wrong with them put up a show and congradulate themselves?

starting yesterday, the whole China will enjoy their week long "Golden Week" holiday. OH YES, they have more holidays per year than most of western countries.

Your grapes are sour? GET REAL!

[bcassill]

Re: The red star is rising: China showing off her might

Don't underestimate how low a person or a country can go. China has never been in a position of power in modern times. We've seen how the "Land of the Free" can act on the world stage. Remember that China is a dictatorship, though a somewhat benign one so far in regards to its relations with others. The rise of China per se does not worry me. Their almost rabid nationalism at times does worry me as well as how they sometimes they react when they do not get their way (Remember when they tried to buy out Rio Tinto a few months back? Remember the shrill condemnations that ran in the mainland press?). So far, they have behaved themselves, but given how America has become the poster child for bad behavior, I just wonder how they will act once they've had a chance to "buff up" their military might even further. :cool:

[ASH]

Re: The red star is rising: China showing off her might

come on guys, do you honestly think comparing China with USSR, and Hitler German fair?

No. But consider that those iTulip readers who aren't especially concerned about China are less likely to comment on a thread like this.

everyone deserves a fair chance in this world. they earn this with sweat and blood

...

the Chinese have come a long way. the human history has never witnessed a country advance with such a speed, on such a scale, and by peaceful means. it is remarkable. what is wrong with them put up a show and congradulate themselves?

I quite agree.

Look, although I frequently criticize aspects of American culture and the way the American government is run, I'm pretty nationalistic. I did, after all, sign up to fight at the direction of the government I sometimes criticize. I am not a "citizen of the world" -- I am an American patriot, and the interests of the American people are more important to me than the interests of humanity in general. I see China as a competitor and a challenge to waning American power; I dislike the present Chinese system of government more than I dislike the system of government under which I live. Heck -- about 60 years ago, my father was badly wounded fighting Chinese troops at Chosin Reservoir, so I even have some personal family history of conflict between the USA and China. However, for all that, I can admire the qualities of a competitor which make them a challenging competitor, and I can empathize with patriots in other countries better than I can empathize with those who aren't strongly attached to their native societies. So, from my standpoint, a celebration of rising Chinese power is not a "good" thing, but I can nonetheless respect the power and feel something in common with the Chinese citizens who exalt in it.

What China does with its rising power, and how far the trend can be extrapolated, remain to be seen. However, this thread is about China celebrating what it has done so far. I can understand why Chinese are proud.

[skyson]

Re: The red star is rising: China showing off her might

Don't underestimate how low a person or a country can go. China has never been in a position of power in modern times. We've seen how the "Land of the Free" can act on the world stage. Remember that China is a dictatorship, though a somewhat benign one so far in regards to its relations with others. The rise of China per se does not worry me. Their almost rabid nationalism at times does worry me as well as how they sometimes they react when they do not get their way (Remember when they tried to buy out Rio Tinto a few months back? Remember the shrill condemnations that ran in the mainland press?). So far, they have behaved themselves, but given how America has become the poster child for bad behavior, I just wonder how they will act once they've had a chance to "buff up" their military might even further. :cool:

Could you judge a person's character by his past actions?

China has been the most advanced society in the world in her past history except the most recent 200 years. The Chinese had been to most regions along the pacific rims, islands in indian sea, and places in africa, way before the first european cononists set their sails towards the sea. But it had never occurred to them that black slavery, killing of natives, or exploid other people with opium trading are ways of serving their interests. They had the means to do just exactly that, yet they chose to be just friendly guests to the hosting people. The Chinese are typically inward looking, a tame elephant, only keen for a fight against predators.

These are historical facts. It has to do with their culture(landpower), philosphy(Confucianism), and religion(Bhuddism). In my belief, that are the reasons it is the only continuous surviving ancient civilization today.

Over expansion was the reason caused many empires to fall in the past. The US empire is the most aggressive and over expanded empire in world history. "Empires come and go, but they all eventually fall". The end of American empire is near, and it won't be well for the US citizens.

No. But consider that those iTulip readers who aren't especially concerned about China are less likely to comment on a thread like this.



I quite agree.

Look, although I frequently criticize aspects of American culture and the way the American government is run, I'm pretty nationalistic. I did, after all, sign up to fight at the direction of the government I sometimes criticize. I am not a "citizen of the world" -- I am an American patriot, and the interests of the American people are more important to me than the interests of humanity in general. I see China as a competitor and a challenge to waning American power; I dislike the present Chinese system of government more than I dislike the system of government under which I live. Heck -- about 60 years ago, my father was badly wounded fighting Chinese troops at Chosin Reservoir, so I even have some personal family history of conflict between the USA and China. However, for all that, I can admire the qualities of a competitor which make them a challenging competitor, and I can empathize with patriots in other countries better than I can empathize with those who aren't strongly attached to their native societies. So, from my standpoint, a celebration of rising Chinese power is not a "good" thing, but I can nonetheless respect the power and feel something in common with the Chinese citizens who exalt in it.

What China does with its rising power, and how far the trend can be extrapolated, remain to be seen. However, this thread is about China celebrating what it has done so far. I can understand why Chinese are proud.

Points well taken.

Salute to your father. I have read many stories about the Battle of Chosin Reservoir. The heroism demonstrated by both the Chinese troops(my father happened to be among one of them, but not in battle) and the US troops continue to amaze me every time I think about the Korean War. It is the most well known battle among Chinese for the fact that, if not because of the poorly equipped Chinese troop under-estimated the American's engineering ability to repair the blown up Threadway Bridge, the motorized elite First Marine Division would had been completely eliminated. (AND your father might have not been able to escaped.)

Again appreciate your words. I just feel a bit offended by the reference of Hitler and USSR.

[Mn_Mark]

Re: The red star is rising: China showing off her might

Apparently Skyson is Chinese and proud of his country and eager to brag about it. That's fine. They Chinese deserve respect for their hard work and the progress they have made in the last 30 years.

A few thoughts, however.

They started making progress once they adopted capitalism. They call it, I believe, "Socialism with Chinese Characteristics", but let's be honest - they have prospered to the extent they gave up communism and began allowing private citizens to earn profits and grow businesses. They have brought more of their citizens out of poverty in 30 years of capitalism than they did in all the centuries before.

In addition, I am with Ash as far as my loyalties go. I am an American patriot. And I reject what has become the common meme, that America is some great horrible oppressor which has an "empire". The wars that America has fought in the last 80 years have been wars to liberate people from tyranny or to prevent communists from taking over additional territory. We didn't attack Iraq for "oil" - as far as I've heard we've never gotten a single barrel out of it but we have given them hundreds of billions of dollars to build their infrastructure and freed them from one of the bloodiest tyrants in history, along with the tyrant's sons. America has done more to help people be free in this world than any nation in the history of the world.

Further, all the display of Chinese military might is very nice, but let's remember how much of it was developed with the help of military technology secrets stolen by Chinese spies who came here supposedly as immigrants or to study, and ended up sending our technology back home.

And I understand China is going through a growth phase, but I will be more impressed when their symbolism does not simply seem to be a copy of the West. Someone noted the western-style "go-go" boots and skirts on the women soldiers. Note also the western-style helmets, guns, uniforms, military formations, and so on. They were even waving a giant "1949" in one of the pictures. Don't the Chinese have their own calendar? Why are they dating their great revolution according to the Western calendar? Have you noticed how their business leaders and their government leaders all wear western-style navy blue suits with red power ties? Where's the traditional Chinese dress? So far what they are proving is they can copy the West. That's fine, that's probably normally what people do when they are trying to show they are as good as someone else.

Basically world culture, to the extent there are common world elements, is anglo-saxon culture. That tribe of northern Europeans really spread their influence around the world. Today the Olympic committee announced who will host the next Olympics; the announcement was made in English, the language of the anglo-saxons and the de facto international language. And the Olympics themselves are an ancient Western tradition renewed by the anglo-saxons in the late 19th century.

So good luck to China, I hope we can be friends with them, I wish them prosperity and independence and success. But please stop insulting my people and my nation in order to make you feel better about yours.

[mooncliff]

Re: The red star is rising: China showing off her might

We didn't attack Iraq for "oil" - as far as I've heard we've never gotten a single barrel out of it but we have given them hundreds of billions of dollars to build their infrastructure and freed them from one of the bloodiest tyrants in history, along with the tyrant's sons. America has done more to help people be free in this world than any nation in the history of the world.

The Great Powers have been fighting over the oil for quite some time now.

There is trouble all over the world. Military power is deployed only where there is some "interest". A lot of the 'Stans don't have oil, but they are in the way and pipelines need to be built through them; therefore, they also must be "stabilized". The Chinese have been buying up small oil fields around the world where it would not be cost effective for other Great Powers to deploy troops. All wars are in the end about money (resources).

I do everything possible to minimize energy use and thereby minimize the money that is flowing out of the country. I intend to get my imported energy use to zero.


The Carter Doctrine was a policy proclaimed by President of the United States Jimmy Carter in his State of the Union Address on January 23 1980, which stated that the United States would use military force if necessary to defend its national interests in the Persian Gulf region. The doctrine was a response to the 1979 invasion of Afghanistan by the Soviet Union, and was intended to deter the Soviet Union—the Cold War adversary of the United States—from seeking hegemony in the Persian Gulf. After stating that Soviet troops in Afghanistan posed "a grave threat to the free movement of Middle East oil," Carter proclaimed:
The region which is now threatened by Soviet troops in Afghanistan is of great strategic importance: It contains more than two-thirds of the world's exportable oil. The Soviet effort to dominate Afghanistan has brought Soviet military forces to within 300 miles of the Indian Ocean and close to the Straits of Hormuz, a waterway through which most of the world's oil must flow. The Soviet Union is now attempting to consolidate a strategic position, therefore, that poses a grave threat to the free movement of Middle East oil.
This situation demands careful thought, steady nerves, and resolute action, not only for this year but for many years to come. It demands collective efforts to meet this new threat to security in the Persian Gulf and in Southwest Asia. It demands the participation of all those who rely on oil from the Middle East and who are concerned with global peace and stability. And it demands consultation and close cooperation with countries in the area which might be threatened.
Meeting this challenge will take national will, diplomatic and political wisdom, economic sacrifice, and, of course, military capability. We must call on the best that is in us to preserve the security of this crucial region.
Let our position be absolutely clear: An attempt by any outside force to gain control of the Persian Gulf region will be regarded as an assault on the vital interests of the United States of America, and such an assault will be repelled by any means necessary, including military force.
This last, key sentence of the Carter Doctrine, was written by Zbigniew Brzezinski, President Carter's National Security Adviser. Brzezinski modeled the wording of the Carter Doctrine on the Truman Doctrine,[1] and insisted that the sentence be included in the speech "to make it very clear that the Soviets should stay away from the Persian Gulf."[2]
In The Prize: The Epic Quest for Oil, Money, and Power, author Daniel Yergin notes that the Carter Doctrine "bore striking similarities" to a 1903 British declaration, in which British Foreign Secretary Lord Landsdowne warned Russia and Germany that the British would "regard the establishment of a naval base or of a fortified port in the Persian Gulf by any other power as a very grave menace to British interests, and we should certainly resist it with all the means at our disposal."[3]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carter_Doctrine

[sishya]

Re: The red star is rising: China showing off her might

Apparently Skyson is Chinese and proud of his country and eager to brag about it. That's fine. They Chinese deserve respect for their hard work and the progress they have made in the last 30 years.

A few thoughts, however.

They started making progress once they adopted capitalism. They call it, I believe, "Socialism with Chinese Characteristics", but let's be honest - they have prospered to the extent they gave up communism and began allowing private citizens to earn profits and grow businesses. They have brought more of their citizens out of poverty in 30 years of capitalism than they did in all the centuries before.

In addition, I am with Ash as far as my loyalties go. I am an American patriot. And I reject what has become the common meme, that America is some great horrible oppressor which has an "empire". The wars that America has fought in the last 80 years have been wars to liberate people from tyranny or to prevent communists from taking over additional territory. We didn't attack Iraq for "oil" - as far as I've heard we've never gotten a single barrel out of it but we have given them hundreds of billions of dollars to build their infrastructure and freed them from one of the bloodiest tyrants in history, along with the tyrant's sons. America has done more to help people be free in this world than any nation in the history of the world.

Further, all the display of Chinese military might is very nice, but let's remember how much of it was developed with the help of military technology secrets stolen by Chinese spies who came here supposedly as immigrants or to study, and ended up sending our technology back home.

And I understand China is going through a growth phase, but I will be more impressed when their symbolism does not simply seem to be a copy of the West. Someone noted the western-style "go-go" boots and skirts on the women soldiers. Note also the western-style helmets, guns, uniforms, military formations, and so on. They were even waving a giant "1949" in one of the pictures. Don't the Chinese have their own calendar? Why are they dating their great revolution according to the Western calendar? Have you noticed how their business leaders and their government leaders all wear western-style navy blue suits with red power ties? Where's the traditional Chinese dress? So far what they are proving is they can copy the West. That's fine, that's probably normally what people do when they are trying to show they are as good as someone else.

Basically world culture, to the extent there are common world elements, is anglo-saxon culture. That tribe of northern Europeans really spread their influence around the world. Today the Olympic committee announced who will host the next Olympics; the announcement was made in English, the language of the anglo-saxons and the de facto international language. And the Olympics themselves are an ancient Western tradition renewed by the anglo-saxons in the late 19th century.

So good luck to China, I hope we can be friends with them, I wish them prosperity and independence and success. But please stop insulting my people and my nation in order to make you feel better about yours.

I am not White but I agree with you. Western culture is being copied by others with regards to everything(dress, music, hierarchy, corporate style,....) to their own peril(in my opinion). Western culture rules the world now, more so the last 50 years. Many in foreign lands are resisting(like Osama in wrong way externalizing instead of looking internally) but to no avail. technology and western culture is slicing through Easter fabric at such a fast pace that soon we will be unrecognizable. what a shame ?

[ASH]

Re: The red star is rising: China showing off her might

Salute to your father. I have read many stories about the Battle of Chosin Reservoir. The heroism demonstrated by both the Chinese troops(my father happened to be among one of them, but not in battle) and the US troops continue to amaze me every time I think about the Korean War. It is the most well known battle among Chinese for the fact that, if not because of the poorly equipped Chinese troop under-estimated the American's engineering ability to repair the blown up Threadway Bridge, the motorized elite First Marine Division would had been completely eliminated. (AND your father might have not been able to escaped.)

Again appreciate your words. I just feel a bit offended by the reference of Hitler and USSR.

I salute your father, as well. It has occurred to me that my existence was a very near thing. ;)

Anyway, as regards Hitler references, I get the impression that around here, you're about equally likely to find someone complaining about nationalistic American behavior as Chinese... certainly a lot of iTulip's readership are small government types who are skeptical of flag-waving in most instances, and are critical of the way that patriotic feelings can be manipulated to control public opinion. It's not uncommon for them to apply the word "fascist" to purely Western policy or behavior (especially when it comes to the state and economics). So, don't feel too singled out. I imagine I'd attract similar comments if I posted similar pictures of American troops and hardware, although our conventions for military parades are a bit different.

[ASH]

Re: The red star is rising: China showing off her might

I am not White but I agree with you. Western culture is being copied by others with regards to everything(dress, music, hierarchy, corporate style,....) to their own peril(in my opinion). Western culture rules the world now, more so the last 50 years. Many in foreign lands are resisting(like Osama) but to no avail. technology and western culture is slicing through Easter fabric at such a fast pace that soon we will be unrecognizable. what a shame ?

On a long time scale, I think it all evens out. We use arabic numerals instead of Roman numerals, despite Western heritage, for the reason that arabic numerals are of superior utility. There are things that Western culture does especially well, and they should be emulated by everybody. There are bad things about Western culture which should be rejected. In the end, different cultures who are brought into contact -- and into competition -- swap ideas, and the more useful ones survive to propagate. Of course, there are also the trivial cultural affectations such as wearing suits, but I don't think that's what one needs to worry about losing their culture to. After all, I don't dress like a 18th century American colonist, much less a 2nd century Roman. A lot of this stuff is superficial and transitory -- you often emulate whoever is most successful at a given time. I think it's more fundamental cultural traits, such as transparent institutions or scientific rationalism, that determine who prospers and whom is emulated. Maybe defects in Western economic culture will result in a decline in wealth and power, and a century from now, everyone will be dressing like someone else... but I bet you the "someone" else won't be dressing like they are today.