The red star is rising: China showing off her might

[sishya]

Re: The red star is rising: China showing off her might

On a long time scale, I think it all evens out. We use arabic numerals instead of Roman numerals, despite Western heritage, for the reason that arabic numerals are of superior utility. There are things that Western culture does especially well, and they should be emulated by everybody. There are bad things about Western culture which should be rejected. In the end, different cultures who are brought into contact -- and into competition -- swap ideas, and the more useful ones survive to propagate. Of course, there are also the trivial cultural affectations such as wearing suits, but I don't think that's what one needs to worry about losing their culture to. After all, I don't dress like a 18th century American colonist, much less a 2nd century Roman. A lot of this stuff is superficial and transitory -- you often emulate whoever is most successful at a given time. I think it's more fundamental cultural traits, such as transparent institutions or scientific rationalism, that determine who prospers and whom is emulated. Maybe defects in Western economic culture will result in a decline in wealth and power, and a century from now, everyone will be dressing like someone else... but I bet you the "someone" else won't be dressing like they are today.

Yes, I am not concerned about superficial things, but
Tradition of strong families are breaking down fast in the East because many are copying ditto. Moral values are being lost. Of course East is learning Science from West now, but I think East is loosing a lot of it's very identity by this blind copy.

Rudyard Kupling said - "Oh, East is East, and West is West, and never the twain shall meet." But looking at how things are going, soon there will be no East.

[flintlock]

Re: The red star is rising: China showing off her might

Not picking on China Skyson, just pointing out that militant Nationalism is nothing new. If I could have found a US parade of similar proportions, I'd have shown that too. I tried. Of course, I guess you could call the Iraq war the US parade


Come on, why parade tanks and missiles down main street in huge numbers if not to send a message?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_triumph

USA, China, Russia, .......and the list could go on. All are capable of doing some awful things in their leadership's quest for power. I don't think any are above reproach.

[skyson]

Re: The red star is rising: China showing off her might

OK, we can all hold our views and agree to disagree. I always enjoy respectful discussions and debates. No hard feelings.

Let enjoy some Friday Night Chill Out.

[flintlock]

Re: The red star is rising: China showing off her might

OK, we can all hold our views and agree to disagree. I always enjoy respectful discussions and debates. No hard feelings.

Let enjoy some Friday Night Chill Out.

I can understand your pride in the resurgence of China. They really have come a long way since WWII. I definitely draw a distinction between the Chinese people and their government. Just like I do between the US people and it's government. Most Americans are not crazy about our leadership these days. On both sides of the aisle.

[mooncliff]

Re: The red star is rising: China showing off her might

In
The Age of Turbulence: Adventures in a New World
former Chairman of the Federal Reserve, Alan Greenspan says

"I am saddened that it is politically inconvenient to acknowledge what everyone knows: the Iraq war is largely about oil."

[meechpod]

In
The Age of Turbulence: Adventures in a New World
former Chairman of the Federal Reserve, Alan Greenspan says

"I am saddened that it is politically inconvenient to acknowledge what everyone knows: the Iraq war is largely about oil."

That is simplistic, populist BS. It should not require a prodigious intellect to understand that the reasons for the Iraq war were far more complex than this made-for-populist-indignation soundbyte. You need to challenge your own thinking capacity just a wee bit more than this.

This is Lukester posting. Now they can shut meechpod down. I frankly don't give a f234ck.

Greenspan is discredited for a geopolitical neophyte (although he is already discredited for being a prostitute to his political masters wishes across 20 odd years) for this ingenuous read on the event.

He makes a feeble semblance of striking out independently on his own "independent" thinking for this statement - but the statement evidences the extent to which he ventured out beyond his depth. Stick to economics Alan, and even there, you have little to boast about.

[mooncliff]

Re: The red star is rising: China showing off her might

That is simplistic, populist BS. It should not require a prodigious intellect to understand that the reasons for the Iraq war were far more complex than this made-for-populist-indignation soundbyte. You need to challenge your own thinking capacity just a wee bit more than this.

This is Lukester posting. Now they can shut meechpod down. I frankly don't give a f234ck.

Greenspan is discredited for a geopolitical neophyte (although he is already discredited for being a prostitute to his political masters wishes across 20 odd years) for this ingenuous read on the event.

He makes a feeble semblance of striking out independently on his own "independent" thinking for this statement - but the statement evidences the extent to which he ventured out beyond his depth. Stick to economics Alan, and even there, you have little to boast about.

That was posted in response to assertions that these wars have nothing to do with oil.

We needed to move bases out of Saudi Arabia, so we moved them to Iraq.

The Great Powers have been fighting over the region for a century. Why? Because they have oil.

Where is there in the world a place without oil over which the Great Powers have been waging multitrillion dollar wars for the last century?

[mooncliff]

Re: The red star is rising: China showing off her might

The Great Powers have been fighting over the region for a century. Why? Because they have oil.

Where is there in the world a place without oil over which the Great Powers have been waging multitrillion dollar wars for the last century?

The Carter Doctrine was a policy proclaimed by President of the United States Jimmy Carter in his State of the Union Address on January 23 1980, which stated that the United States would use military force if necessary to defend its national interests in the Persian Gulf region. The doctrine was a response to the 1979 invasion of Afghanistan by the Soviet Union, and was intended to deter the Soviet Union—the Cold War adversary of the United States—from seeking hegemony in the Persian Gulf. After stating that Soviet troops in Afghanistan posed "a grave threat to the free movement of Middle East oil," Carter proclaimed:
The region which is now threatened by Soviet troops in Afghanistan is of great strategic importance: It contains more than two-thirds of the world's exportable oil. The Soviet effort to dominate Afghanistan has brought Soviet military forces to within 300 miles of the Indian Ocean and close to the Straits of Hormuz, a waterway through which most of the world's oil must flow. The Soviet Union is now attempting to consolidate a strategic position, therefore, that poses a grave threat to the free movement of Middle East oil.
This situation demands careful thought, steady nerves, and resolute action, not only for this year but for many years to come. It demands collective efforts to meet this new threat to security in the Persian Gulf and in Southwest Asia. It demands the participation of all those who rely on oil from the Middle East and who are concerned with global peace and stability. And it demands consultation and close cooperation with countries in the area which might be threatened.
Meeting this challenge will take national will, diplomatic and political wisdom, economic sacrifice, and, of course, military capability. We must call on the best that is in us to preserve the security of this crucial region.
Let our position be absolutely clear: An attempt by any outside force to gain control of the Persian Gulf region will be regarded as an assault on the vital interests of the United States of America, and such an assault will be repelled by any means necessary, including military force.

[mooncliff]

Re: The red star is rising: China showing off her might

Must-see explanation of how and why oil formed where it did.

http://www.abc.net.au/science/crude/

[skyson]

Re: The red star is rising: China showing off her might

ok, i don't want to engage a lengthy debate, but just to set some facts straight.

Please provide examples of how china was more advanced then the west from 1500 AD to 1800 AD. I can find no reference. I do find numerous references to Asian countries trying to emulate the west during this period and succesfully intergrating modern manufacturing learned from the west (sound familiar) during the 1800's

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economi...anchu_invasion
China is one of the oldest civilizations in the world and was the largest and most advanced economy for much of recorded history.^[1][2][3] The Financial Times stated that "China has been the world’s largest economy for 18 of the past 20 centuries".^[4] According to Ebrey's Cambridge Illustrated History of China, "Until 1700 China's material culture had been unrivalled; its standard of living was among the best in the world, and inventions flowed more commonly from east to west than vice versa."

The Chinese had been to most regions along the pacific rims, islands in indian sea, and places in africa, way before the first european cononists set their sails towards the sea.

This statement makes no sense of course China was the first to visit the pacific regions and the Indian Sea. This is like saying Rome was more advanced then China because it found Egypt first. Basic geography.

i was talking about these facts:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zheng_he#Voyages

and what mooncliff talked about:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwlMq...layer_embedded#

despite the clear advantages over the hosting people of the visited lands, the chinese did not exploit the opportunities.

But it had never occurred to them that black slavery, killing of natives, or exploid other people with opium trading are ways of serving their interests. They had the means to do just exactly that, yet they chose to be just friendly guests to the hosting people. The Chinese are typically inward looking, a tame elephant, only keen for a fight against predators.

OK you are now spreading disinformation please read the attached timeline and you can see clearly that China has been at war with itself or with Korea, Veitnam and Japan for the better part of 2000 years.

wars between countries have been an unbroken themes of world history. but did the chinese engage in slavery, ethnic cleansing, forcing opium trades on other people?

did you notice that the examples you show were all with neighboring countries? those were territorial disputes. not blatant aggressions. in the case of japan, everytime it was japan who was the aggressor.

In my belief, that are the reasons it is the only continuous surviving ancient civilization today.

What about the Greeks, Italians, Iraqi's, (Cradel of civilization and all that). Not to mention Egypt, India, Turkey.

the keywords are "continuous surviving":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China
"China has one of the world's oldest civilizations and has the oldest continuous civilization.^[1] It has archaeological evidence dating back over 5,000 years.^[2] It also has one of the world's oldest written language systems, and is viewed as the source of many major inventions"

india was not a continuous ancient civilization, for example:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History...a#Colonial_era
"Beginning in the mid-18th century and over the next century, India was gradually annexed by the British East India Company. Dissatisfaction with Company rule led to the First War of Indian Independence, after which India was directly administered by the British Crown and witnessed a period of both rapid development of infrastructure and economic decline."

i don't let a good story spoil facts.;);)

[skyson]

Re: The red star is rising: China showing off her might

You dont need to have a good story to spoil the facts you just twist the facts to tell your story.

errr....if that is what you want to do, fine...but my ears are all mine

[touchring]

Re: The red star is rising: China showing off her might

Since American researchers discovered the oldest writing in the world in China a few years ago, I believe that advanced civilizations in China started before the Middle East and Egypt. It may not be the Han Chinese as we know today, probably some tribes, I suspect the Miao Minority that later migrated to South China and South East Asia.

There's a lack of archeological evidence for the following 2 reasons I can think of:

1). Unlike civilizations in the Middle East which uses stone and sand that are in abundance in the desert, civilizations in China are based on wood - wooden structures and buildings don't last 5000 years - they rot away or if discovered - used as firewood. ;)

2). Chinese civilizations are continuous - empires that fall are replaced by new empires - they don't have 'frozen in time lost civilization structures' as in the case of the Western Roman empire, Egypt and Mesopotamia. Cities built by former Chinese empires are dismantled and materials used to build them are savaged to build new cities.



http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/2956925.stm

Signs carved into 8,600-year-old tortoise shells found in China may be the earliest written words, say archaeologists.

The symbols were laid down in the late Stone Age, or Neolithic Age.

They predate the earliest recorded writings from Mesopotamia - in what is now Iraq - by more than 2,000 years.

The archaeologists say they bear similarities to written characters used thousands of years later during the Shang dynasty, which lasted from 1700-1100 BC.

I note the character below which was found on the 8000 year old artefact, and is unmistakably the chinese character for eye ->

What about the Greeks, Italians, Iraqi's, (Cradel of civilization and all that). Not to mention Egypt, India, Turkey. .

[touchring]

Re: The red star is rising: China showing off her might

did you notice that the examples you show were all with neighboring countries? those were territorial disputes. not blatant aggressions. in the case of japan, everytime it was japan who was the aggressor.

China had no interest in Japan. Japan had no resources and was very primitive in ancient times.

[skyson]

Re: The red star is rising: China showing off her might

http://www.smh.com.au/world/china-se...1001-geq5.html

The commander of the Seventh Fleet, Vice-Admiral John Bird, said in Sydney yesterday that China's naval capability "has grown much faster than any of our predictions''.


Of China's new capabilities, "many are intended to counter a navy such as the US Navy," with weapons systems "targeted to our carriers and larger ships."


He suggested that China aimed ultimately to displace the US in the Pacific: "I think the Chinese would like to see less of the Seventh Fleet in this part of the world.


"I think their track record is pretty clear - the Chinese will continue to expand their maritime area of operations further in the future," he told reporters aboard his command vessel, the USS Blue Ridge.

[skyson]

Re: The red star is rising: China showing off her might

China had no interest in Japan. Japan had no resources and was very primitive in ancient times.

i know that. japan is an island country, and they fear their country will sink under the sea as they situates right on the most active earth quake belt. occupying a stable land(korea, china) has been their national dream since like Ming dynaty(16th century).