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  • Spain tips into Depression

    Shame. Been to Spain & really liked the people there...

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/e...epression.html

    Spain tips into depression

    Spain is sliding into a full-blown economic depression with unemployment approaching levels not seen since the Second Republic of the 1930s and little chance of recovery until well into the next decade, according to a clutch of reports over recent days.



    By Ambrose Evans-Pritchard
    Published: 10:28PM BST 24 Sep 2009
    Comments 64 | Comment on this article

    Bull run is over: Spain is sliding into a full-blown economic depression akin to that seen in the 1930s Photo: AP



    The Madrid research group RR de Acuña & Asociados said the collapse of Spain's building industry will cause the economy to contract for the next three years, with a peak to trough loss of over 11pc of GDP. The grim forecast is starkly at odds with claims by premier Jose Luis Zapatero, who still says Spain's recession will be milder than elsewhere in Europe.

    RR de Acuña said the overhang of unsold properties on the market, or still being built, has reached 1,623,000 . This dwarfs annual demand of 218,000, and will take six or seven years to clear. The group said Spain's unemployment will peak at around 25pc, comparable to the worst chapter of the Great Depression.

    Spanish workers typically receive 50pc to 60pc of their former pay for eighteen months after losing their job. Then the guillotine falls. Spain's parliament has rushed through a law guaranteeing €420 a month for long-term unemployed, but this will not prevent a social crisis if the slump drags on.

    Separately, UBS said unemployment will reach 4.8m and may go as high as 5.4m if the job purge in the service sector gathers pace. There is the growing risk of a "Lost Decade" akin to Japan's malaise after the Nikkei bubble.

    Roberto Ruiz, the bank's Spain strategist, said salaries must fall by 10pc in real terms to regain lost competitiveness, replicating the sort of wage squeeze seen in Germany after reunification.

    There is no sign yet that either Spanish trade unions or the Zapatero government are ready for such draconian measures. Talks between the unions and Spain's industry federation (CEOE) broke down in acrimony in July.

    Mr Ruiz said the construction sector will shrink from 18pc of GDP at the peak of the boom to around 5pc, making it unlikely that there will be any significant recovery before 2012. Even then growth will be "slow, weak, and fragile".

    The Spanish government can do little to cushion the downturn. "The room for manouvre in fiscal policy has been exhausted," said Mr Ruiz.

    The rocketing cost of jobless benefits has added 3pc of GDP to the budget deficit. Mr Zapatero has ordered all ministries to cut 8pc of discretionary spending to help plug the gap left by collapsing tax revenues. The axe is likely to fall on research and big projects such as high-speed railways.
    The root cause of Spain's trouble is that it joined monetary union before its economy was ready. EMU halved Spanish interest rates almost overnight. Real rates were minus 2pc for much of this decade. Combined private and corporate debt reached 230pc of GDP, funded by French and German savings.

    The credit boom masked a steady decline in productivity over the last decade. Spain's unit labour costs have risen by about 30pc compared to Germany.

    The Bank of Spain made heroic efforts to counter the effects of the bubble by forcing banks to put aside extra reserves, known as dynamic provisioning, but the sheer scale of the problem has washed over the defences.

    Spain no longer has the escape valve of devaluation to claw back market share. It cannot resort to emergency monetary stimulus – as Switzerland, Britain, the US, and Japan are doing to prevent the onset of debt deflation. Prices are already falling at a rate of 1.2pc.

    Jamie Dannhauser from Lombard Street Research said Spain is bearing the full brunt of the European Central Bank's restrictive monetary policy, which has caused private sector credit in the eurozone to shrink over the last six months.

    The latest ECB data shows that 60pc of Spanish firms have seen access to credit fall so far this year. Most say they have been denied their full request for loans or credit lines.

    Mr Dannhauser said Spain faces the same sort of boom-bust headache as Britain. The big difference is that Spain cannot let the exchange rate take the strain. "It is going to be very hard for them to sort this out in a currency union."

    For the time being, an odd calm prevails across the Iberian peninsular. There are no street riots, even though youth unemployment has reached 38pc. It is hard to imagine anything like the bloody uprising by Asturian miners in 1934, the last time so many people were without jobs.

    Local communities have started to issue scrip currency known as "moneda social", based on reflation experiments tried by Austrian cantons in 1932 and more recently by Argentina. Yet few blame the crisis on the effects of the euro. There is a near total backing for EMU, in contrast to France and Germany where a small but vocal minority has never accepted the wisdom of Europe's one-size-fits-all system.

    Membership of the EU and the euro is inextracably linked in Spain's collective mind to the country's re-emergence as a modern, dynamic European power after the stultifying isolation of the Franco dictatorship. It would take a major trauma to test that bond.

  • #2
    Re: Spain tips into Depression

    Starving Steve's solution to the economic problems of Spain, Canada, America, and the UK: LOWER THE COST OF LIVING.

    How to lower the cost of living?

    1.) Lower energy costs by flooding the electric market with electricity from nuclear power plants, from coal-fired power plants, from natural gas-fired power plants, and from hydro-electric power plants.

    2.) Lower land prices, especially in cities, by flooding urban real estate markets with developable land, free of development restrictions by green planners. ( LET CITIES GROW.) Welcome developers and job creators....
    Govn't should be building roads, pipelines, and general infrastructure NOW to facilitate growth.

    3.) Fire the central bankers who gave us this inflation agenda. Instead, RAISE interest rates in order to reward savers, reward conservers, reward investors. This anti-Bernanke and anti-inflation approach (raising interest rates) would also serve to punish speculators, and punish frivolish (sp?) consumers, and punish the wasteful use of money and energy.

    So why is Spain tipping into depression? One need only review Spain's planning and economic policies:

    Spain has pissed money away with solar-power hopes, wind-power dreams. Spain has allowed money to be pissed away with outrageous land prices and an anti-growth, anti-sprawl, so-called green planning agenda. Because Spain is part of the European Union and uses the Euro, Spain has had to indirectly follow Bernanke's inflationist policies of pushing-down interest rates toward zero..... So here we are now: depression in Spain, and really, depression emerging worldwide.
    Last edited by Starving Steve; September 26, 2009, 03:10 PM.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Spain tips into Depression

      Originally posted by Starving Steve View Post
      Starving Steve's solution to the economic problems of Spain, Canada, America, and the UK: LOWER THE COST OF LIVING
      Canada? Canada has no debt and one of the highest standards of living in the world, way above America.

      Canadian unemployment is measured differently then in the USA which is why it is always a few points higher. Unemployed people in Canada get free health care so are often unemployed because they choose to be - started a company, going to school, hanging out with family... not a work slave culture like it is in America...not live to work but a work to live..

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Spain tips into Depression

        Originally posted by MulaMan View Post
        Canada? Canada has no debt and one of the highest standards of living in the world, way above America.
        2009 per capita income, USA: $41,800
        2009 per capita income, Canada: $34,000
        Source: 2009 CIA World Fact Book

        Plus, as I don't think anyone would dispute, Canada has a great deal more regulation. It's much more difficult to start and grow a business in Canada.

        When you say that Canada has a standard of living way above America, I'm assuming you're getting that assessment from one of those left-wing analyses that considers a socialist health care system an indication of a "high standard of living", along with things like lots of "green" regulations, and other socialist programs like child care money, lots of government-mandated vacations, etc. In other words, since the left wing knows they can't compete on the basis of freedom, opportunity, and per capita income, they redefine "standard of living" so it's measured according to socialist values.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Spain tips into Depression

          Originally posted by Starving Steve View Post
          Starving Steve's solution to the economic problems of Spain, Canada, America, and the UK: LOWER THE COST OF LIVING.

          How to lower the cost of living?

          1.) Lower energy costs by flooding the electric market with electricity from nuclear power plants, from coal-fired power plants, from natural gas-fired power plants, and from hydro-electric power plants.

          2.) Lower land prices, especially in cities, by flooding urban real estate markets with developable land, free of development restrictions by green planners. ( LET CITIES GROW.) Welcome developers and job creators....
          Govn't should be building roads, pipelines, and general infrastructure NOW to facilitate growth.

          3.) Fire the central bankers who gave us this inflation agenda. Instead, RAISE interest rates in order to reward savers, reward conservers, reward investors. This anti-Bernanke and anti-inflation approach (raising interest rates) would also serve to punish speculators, and punish frivolish (sp?) consumers, and punish the wasteful use of money and energy.

          So why is Spain tipping into depression? One need only review Spain's planning and economic policies:

          Spain has pissed money away with solar-power hopes, wind-power dreams. Spain has allowed money to be pissed away with outrageous land prices and an anti-growth, anti-sprawl, so-called green planning agenda. Because Spain is part of the European Union and uses the Euro, Spain has had to indirectly follow Bernanke's inflationist policies of pushing-down interest rates toward zero..... So here we are now: depression in Spain, and really, depression emerging worldwide.
          The U.S. has between 2 to 4 trillion dollars worth of infrastructure repairs/upgrades that need to be done (many times this money has already been given to the banksters). If this money were invested for fixing roads, electrical infrastructure, high speed rail service (if it makes sense financially), and high speed internet access upgrades (particularly wireless), all of these things would boost the economy. I still think we still need need to look at alternative energy solutions that are feasible, not the corn ethanol BS, if for no other reason than to reduce our dependence on the Chavez's and Ahmadinejad's of the world who as you know wish us unicorns and rainbows forever.

          Cheap energy, no taxes on domestic manufacturing operations, and tax credits for hiring domestic workers. This is the kind of stimulus we need. The only disagreement I have is with the "green" city planning. Here in the Puget Sound area the greatest threat to water quality is population growth from people driving cars and putting fertilizer crap all over their lawns to keep the grass green. There is probably about a 40 mile strip of land from the ocean to the Cascade mountain range where all of our drinking water comes from. I would prefer to keep that clean.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Spain tips into Depression

            The reason why the U.S. has such a high median per capita income is that a handful of people in America ( the insiders on Wall Street, the executives and bankers bailed-out by Bernanke, the rich and privileged farmers especially in the South ) earn tens of millions of dollars per year, if not more. They bring the median income figure way up and paint a very distorted picture of what is really going on in America.

            The rest of the people in America starve, lucky to earn $10K to $20K per year. The world needs to realize this, and so does the Republican Party in America need to realize the plain truth about what is going on here.

            How do people survive in America? They don't.

            Anyone who thinks America is the world's leader in standard of livings or per capita incomes, let them come visit Detroit, or Chicago, Los Angeles, Oakland, Watsonville, or even Salinas, California..... Let the truth be shown to the world.

            How many have been shot and killed this year in Salinas? 110 so far? And why the gangs? The sad answer: no-one can make a living.
            Last edited by Starving Steve; September 26, 2009, 05:26 PM.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Spain tips into Depression

              Spain is the Florida of Europe, the Britts all thought they would be able to retire as wealthy absentee landlords living off the rents.

              But who is left to rent if everyone has become an absentee landlord?
              Justice is the cornerstone of the world

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Spain tips into Depression

                Originally posted by Mn_Mark View Post
                2009 per capita income, USA: $41,800
                2009 per capita income, Canada: $34,000
                Source: 2009 CIA World Fact Book

                Plus, as I don't think anyone would dispute, Canada has a great deal more regulation. It's much more difficult to start and grow a business in Canada.

                When you say that Canada has a standard of living way above America, I'm assuming you're getting that assessment from one of those left-wing analyses that considers a socialist health care system an indication of a "high standard of living", along with things like lots of "green" regulations, and other socialist programs like child care money, lots of government-mandated vacations, etc. In other words, since the left wing knows they can't compete on the basis of freedom, opportunity, and per capita income, they redefine "standard of living" so it's measured according to socialist values.
                FYI those per capita figures don't mean much without data on cost of living figures to go along with it. How much are they paying for things like food, clothing and shelter as opposed to those in USA? Then we can see who's currency goes the furtherst. Not that I am arguing for or against either nation, just would like to see apples to apples presented. As for the whole socialist psycho babble people like to throw about in America. If they feel that strongly about it I hope people are not sending their kids to public schools, driving on public roads, walking on public side walks, going to the library, calling the police when they are in need/danger and I hope they are putting their own fires out when their homes burn down etc. etc.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Spain tips into Depression
                  UPDATE 2-Spain raises VAT to cut budget deficit

                  09.26.09, 12:23 PM EDT


                  By Jason Webb and Carlos Ruano
                  MADRID, Sept 26 (Reuters) - Spain will boost value-added tax and slash income tax rebates while its economy is still struggling to emerge from recession in order to cut its budget deficit and guarantee the confidence of financial markets.
                  Announcing the 2010 budget bill, which now has to be approved by parliament, Economy Minister Elena Salgado said value-added tax would rise to 18 percent from 16 percent as part of an 11 billion euro ($16.15 billion) package of tax increases.



                  The government will also axe a 400 euro tax rebate and increase the tax on capital gains of over 6,000 euros to 21 percent from 18 percent, she said.



                  'Those who have the most should make the biggest contribution,' Salgado told a news conference, indicating that the minority Socialist government would seek the support of small left-wing parties in order to pass the bill.



                  ..


                  http://www.forbes.com/feeds/afx/2009...fx6934709.html

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Spain tips into Depression

                    The reason why the U.S. has such a high median per capita income is that a handful of people in America ( the insiders on Wall Street, the executives and bankers bailed-out by Bernanke, the rich and privileged farmers especially in the South ) earn tens of millions of dollars per year, if not more. They bring the median income figure way up and paint a very distorted picture of what is really going on in America.


                    Someone needs to explain to this dude the difference between "median" and "average".

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Spain tips into Depression

                      1 2 36 99 99 99 99

                      Kwiz

                      Mean = ?

                      Median = ?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Spain tips into Depression

                        Spain is falling down and deflating because of a deflation in
                        employable work force and population contraction. That is
                        the main cause, I think

                        Comment

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