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Deflation Not Done -- Then ???

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  • Deflation Not Done -- Then ???

    Found this article on FS by Eric Andrews. One of the better summations of the inflation/deflation argument (EJ is given credit as well) and how our current situation is unique:

    http://www.financialsense.com/fsu/ed...2009/0921.html

    I recommend reading the whole article but here's an excerpt of its conclusion:

    This goes back to Prechter's timing; that Deflation will happen FIRST, before the government can or will react. And they're proving that with a whole year's insubstantial actions. But this is also Janzen's “Ka-Poom” argument, that Deflation will happen first, for a few real months as in Argentina in 2001, but that any modern government on a strictly symbol-based currency, will always inflate rather than allow Deflation to take its full course. In his scenario, the latent inflation finally takes the upper hand in a total loss of confidence, causing near-immediate hyperinflation. But on this one thing, both sides agree, both the King Deflationist, and the key Inflationists—inflation occurs during a boom as credit is expanding, then credit pops and contracts, it is repudiated, and then...ULTIMATELY...? Inflation or Deflation?


    Which will it be? Despite arguments to the contrary, we can't know. Although no symbol-based modern currency has ever chosen Deflation, the world has never yet been on a global fiat standard during the downturn of the 70-year Kondratiev cycle. So we can't guess. Functionally it can go either way. To save themselves, banks and creditors could choose to foot-drag until the whole Deflation is over. Or to “save the people”, Governments could seize the real power of the printing press and thereby create a mechanism for true inflation that does not presently exist. Personally, I believe a third thing will happen instead: that accounts are so imbalanced and are such a mockery of reality that the present system will disintegrate to be rebuilt piece-by-piece, and the dollar will vanish in its present form, perhaps reformed in one or three world currencies, perhaps with a dollar backed by gold at a far lower rate.


    Although that's my opinion, we can't know for a fact who will get the upper hand in that eventual struggle. I cannot tell you which side will ULTIMATELY be right, in the very long-term, for each will be right in their own time. Life is a story that doesn't have a neat endpoint, but goes on and on.


    But by their own actions we now know one important thing: they are not inflating, even with such desperate realities as face us today, and there is no reason to think they will until something happens. How do we know? They've already told us with actions louder than words.


    Wait for The Event. Position yourself for it. It will be Deflationary, for by public standards if it were Inflationary to assets, that would be called a “good” thing, not a crisis. Then, after the Deflationary economic or geopolitical event, then we will see.


    But first things first. Wait for The Event.

  • #2
    Re: Deflation Not Done -- Then ???

    Originally posted by Mashuri View Post
    Found this article on FS by Eric Andrews. One of the better summations of the inflation/deflation argument (EJ is given credit as well) and how our current situation is unique:

    http://www.financialsense.com/fsu/ed...2009/0921.html

    I recommend reading the whole article but here's an excerpt of its conclusion:
    EJ writes in:
    Asset price deflation? Yes. For example, housing prices.


    The actual decline is in line with our forecast. Look at the curve "Projected" after "Actual" from 2007 in our 2007 chart below, later used in the Harper's article. It forecasts $10 trillion deflation in housing prices.


    Will asset price deflation spill over into commodity price deflation in the Producer/Consumer economy as occurred in Japan in 1993? No, for the reasons we explained back in 2006. The Fed understood that the Bank of Japan was too slow to react to asset price deflation, just as the Fed was too slow to react in the 1930s.



    After that mistake, Japan has experienced stag-deflation ever since, but no U.S. 1930s deflation spiral.

    These graphs are from iTulip 2005. We have explained since then that the Fed stood ready to hit the gas to prevent the occurrence in the U.S. of a stag-deflation as occurred in Japan or a deflation spiral that occurred in the U.S. in the 1930s resulting from an asset price crash and debt deflation.

    As explained in Deflation fare thee well – Part I: In search of real returns in an unreal world, the four-month period of disinflation we expected ended March 2009 when the dollar stopped rising and commodity prices stopped falling.
    The U.S. experienced a short bout of deflation we call disinflation before the long-term inflation trend resumed.



    This is what a deflation spiral looks like, from 1930 to 1934
    Instead of 48 continuous months of CPI decline this time the U.S. experienced four months of CPI decline.

    Asset price deflation in the FIRE Economy was not be allowed to spill over into commodity and wage prices in the Producer/Consumer Economy.

    The data prove it.

    No U.S. 1930s deflation spiral. No Japan 1992 - 2008 stag-deflation.

    We moved past this argument in June because the events we forecast came to pass.

    There is no going back. The Fed has set the course. The question is, where does it take us?

    Anyone who believes it will take us from here to a deflation spiral or a stag-deflation does not understand the history or the processes involved, particularly the relationship between asset price inflation and commodity and wage price inflation, and monetary policy with respect to each.

    Six months ago we moved past the tired inflation versus deflation debate. It's over. The three year old debate was settled in March 2009.

    Now the question is, What kind of economic monstrosity has the Fed created by its policies to prevent another Great Depression? Or more precisely, what has the latest government policy surgery done to the Frankenstein Economy?

    Frankenstein Economy
    Made in U.S.A. 1995

    Weekly Commentary - March 22, 2006

    Last edited by FRED; September 22, 2009, 05:20 PM.
    Ed.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Deflation Not Done -- Then ???

      The next couple of quarters will be telling, won't they?

      EDIT:

      I notice that EJ likes to define inflation/deflation as general prices (which is subject to all kinds of noise like capital improvements, supply, etc) which puts him at semantic odds with many who define it as money/credit supply.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Deflation Not Done -- Then ???

        Fred, I'd appreciate some comments on the no deflation spiral view in lieu of the S&P 600 call.

        I've got it that there will be no long-term spiral ala the 30s.

        But if there is a S&P crash (and a China crash possibly as well!) isn't it likely there be a short-term plunge in commodities again?

        I've got a fair amount of commodities from the last plunge, but didn't *load* because I never saw a true capitulation -- which is what I'm thinking the 600 plunge would likely trigger.

        Are you saying commodities are likely to stay above the fray?

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Deflation Not Done -- Then ???

          Originally posted by Mashuri View Post
          The next couple of quarters will be telling, won't they?

          EDIT:

          I notice that EJ likes to define inflation/deflation as general prices (which is subject to all kinds of noise like capital improvements, supply, etc) which puts him at semantic odds with many who define it as money/credit supply.
          Why? Because 10 years ago we noticed that major inflation can occur when the money supply is shrinking in a cash economy with a dead banking system and virtually no credit at all.
          Ed.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Deflation Not Done -- Then ???

            Originally posted by FRED View Post
            Why? Because 10 years ago we noticed that major inflation can occur when the money supply is shrinking in a cash economy with a dead banking system and virtually no credit at all.
            Hi Fred

            Just wanted to write a quick thank you to Itulip for having the patience to constantly repeat this mantra - it took some time to get this through my thick skull

            inflation is always and everywhere more then just a monetary phenomenon'...

            who cares what a text book calls inflation or deflation if it has no bearing on my everyday life, what do I call prices rising and / or my purchasing power declining while M3 is declining? Answer (for me now) - inflation.

            Thanks again to EJ and Itulip for your efforts in cutting through the BS.
            Last edited by Diarmuid; September 22, 2009, 05:53 PM.
            "that each simple substance has relations which express all the others"

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Deflation Not Done -- Then ???

              Originally posted by Diarmuid View Post
              Hi Fred

              Just wanted to write a quick thank you to Itulip for having the patience to constantly repeat this mantra - it took some time to get this through my thick skull

              inflation is always and everywhere more then just a monetary phenomenon'...

              who cares what a text book calls inflation or deflation if it has no bearing on my everyday life, what do I call prices rising and / or my purchasing power declining while M3 is declining? Answer (for me now) - inflation.

              Thanks again to EJ and Itulip for your efforts in cutting through the BS.
              No, that's price fluctuation -- some due to monetary inflation/deflation and some due to other forces. I appreciate iTulip's research but I don't take them as the Czar of the English language. It's important, especially when debating a subject, that we use common definitions.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Deflation Not Done -- Then ???

                Originally posted by FRED View Post
                Why? Because 10 years ago we noticed that major inflation can occur when the money supply is shrinking in a cash economy with a dead banking system and virtually no credit at all.
                You mean prices can change due to forces other than monetary/credit inflation? That's not inflation then.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Deflation Not Done -- Then ???

                  Originally posted by Mashuri View Post
                  No, that's price fluctuation -- some due to monetary inflation/deflation and some due to other forces. I appreciate iTulip's research but I don't take them as the Czar of the English language. It's important, especially when debating a subject, that we use common definitions.
                  Jeez whats one to do when the goal posts are constantly moving? where are you getting your definition from. I have heard deflation / inflation arguments - where the participants hardly get beyond arguing over the definition of "inflation", for goodness sake. Please give me your definitive definition for deflation / inflation and its source I would be most grateful.



                  Webster's 1983 Definition of Inflation

                  According to Webster's New Universal Unabridged Dictionary published in 1983 the second definition of "inflation" after "the act of inflating or the condition of being inflated" is:
                  "An increase in the amount of currency in circulation, resulting in a relatively sharp and sudden fall in its value and rise in prices: it may be caused by an increase in the volume of paper money issued or of gold mined, or a relative increase in expenditures as when the supply of goods fails to meet the demand.
                  This definition includes some of the basic economics of inflation and would seem to indicate that inflation is not defined as the increase in prices but as the increase in the supply of money that causes the increase in prices i.e. inflation is a cause rather than an effect.
                  Webster's 2000 Definition of Inflation

                  However, The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition, Copyright © 2000 Published by Houghton Mifflin Company says:
                  Inflation:
                  2) A persistent increase in the level of consumer prices or a persistent decline in the purchasing power of money, caused by an increase in available currency and credit beyond the proportion of available goods and services.
                  In this definition, inflation would appear to be the consequence or result (rising prices) rather than the cause.
                  Shifty Words

                  So between 1983 and 2000 the definition appears to have shifted from the cause to the result. Also note that the cause could be either an increase in money supply or a decrease in available goods and services.

                  Last edited by Diarmuid; September 22, 2009, 08:19 PM.
                  "that each simple substance has relations which express all the others"

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Deflation Not Done -- Then ???

                    Originally posted by Diarmuid View Post
                    Jeez whats one to do when the goal posts are constantly moving? where are you getting your definition from. I have heard deflation / inflation arguments - where the participants hardly get beyond arguing over the definition of "inflation", for goodness sake. Please give me your definitive definition for deflation / inflation and its source I would be most grateful.
                    Then it's important to clarify what type someone means. I see people, for example, criticize Mish as wrong about deflation, but do they mean in the way Mish defines it (monetary + credit) or EJ?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Deflation Not Done -- Then ???

                      Originally posted by Mashuri View Post
                      Then it's important to clarify what type someone means. I see people, for example, criticize Mish as wrong about deflation, but do they mean in the way Mish defines it (monetary + credit) or EJ?
                      Here is a post from Jtabeb in a more relevant thread and who does imo a good job at clarifying the debate.

                      http://www.itulip.com/forums/showthr...24268#poststop
                      Last edited by Diarmuid; September 22, 2009, 08:51 PM.
                      "that each simple substance has relations which express all the others"

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Deflation Not Done -- Then ???

                        I love when EJ writes like this:


                        Asset price deflation in the FIRE Economy was not be allowed to spill over into commodity and wage prices in the Producer/Consumer Economy.

                        The data prove it.

                        No U.S. 1930s deflation spiral. No Japan 1992 - 2008 stag-deflation.

                        We moved past this argument in June because the events we forecast came to pass.



                        Six months ago we moved past the tired inflation versus deflation debate. It's over. The three year old debate was settled in March 2009.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Deflation Not Done -- Then ???

                          Originally posted by Diarmuid View Post
                          Here is a post from Jtabeb in a more relevant thread and who does imo a good job at clarifying the debate.

                          http://www.itulip.com/forums/showthr...24268#poststop
                          Agreed. It should be made a sticky and required reading before posting.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Deflation Not Done -- Then ???

                            Originally posted by cjppjc View Post
                            Six months ago we moved past the tired inflation versus deflation debate. It's over. The three year old debate was settled in March 2009.
                            How very Al Gore-ish to declare a debate over. ;)

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Deflation Not Done -- Then ???

                              Originally posted by Mashuri View Post
                              Agreed. It should be made a sticky and required reading before posting.
                              I also agree

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