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The Case for Health Insurance for Illegals | Newsweek

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  • The Case for Health Insurance for Illegals | Newsweek

    Pure garbage from Newsweek, and if that isn't infuriating enough, check out the other healthcare stories in the issue: I Was a Teenage Death Panelist &
    The Case for Killing Granny.

    According to Newsweek since illegal immigrants are so healthy and vibrant it'll be really cost effective to insure them. As if nothing would change about the kinds of illegal immigrants we would start welcoming if we allowed them free healthcare.


    Wait a Second. Why Shouldn’t We Insure Illegals?

    Insuring undocumented immigrants might be unpopular, but it would be good for the economy.
    By Andrew Romano | Newsweek Web Exclusive
    Sep 14, 2009


    Call it the shout heard round the world. Since last Wednesday, when Rep. Joe Wilson, Republican of South Carolina, interrupted Barack Obama's big speech on health-care reform to shout "You lie!," Beltway bloviators have bloviated about little else. Wilson's vulgarity. Wilson’s apology. Wilson's "dirty health-care secret". Wilson's charming effort to make American politics more British.
    And that's just at NEWSWEEK.



    Few of us, however, have actually bothered to address the issue that provoked Wilson's outburst: health insurance for illegal immigrants. The line he objected to—"The reforms I'm proposing would not apply to those who are here illegally"—is, in fact, not a "lie." The current House bill makes it very clear that "individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States" will not be allowed to receive subsidies. To wrangle assistance, illegal aliens would have to commit identity fraud, something that rarely happens in our current public-health-care system (a.k.a. Medicare). And Democratic senators have just announced that they'll require those who participate to show proof of citizenship. So it's a nonissue.
    But let's just assume, for argument's sake, that we all live in Wilsonville, where Obama is the lying liar his critics allege him to be—the sort of psycho who has chosen to sacrifice his political future on the flaming pyre of anti-immigrant sentiment by concocting a secret scheme to cover the nation's estimated 11.9 million illegals. Would that really be so bad?
    Of course, insuring undocumented workers is ethically murky and politically impossible. Some people argue that if we're hiring illegals to, say, shingle our roofs, we have a moral obligation to care for them if they fall off. But more people, it seems, simply want them out of the country. Given that illegal immigrants have, by definition, broken our laws, it makes sense that large numbers of upstanding citizens oppose any measure that would encourage more foreigners to sneak into America or make their lives easier once they're here.
    The only problem? From a purely economic standpoint, insuring illegal immigrants makes a lot of sense—and not just for them, but for everyone.
    Consider a few statistics. According to a July article in the American Journal of Public Health, immigrants typically arrive in America during their prime working years and tend to be younger and healthier than the rest of the U.S. population. As a result, health-care expenditures for the average immigrant are 55 percent lower than for a native-born American citizen with similar characteristics. With the ratio of seniors to workers projected to increase by 67 percent between 2010 and 2030, it stands to reason that including the relatively healthy, relatively employable and largely uninsured illegal population in some sort of universal health-care system would be a boon rather than a burden. "Insurance in principle has to cover the average medical cost of all the people it's serving," explains Leighton Ku, a professor of health policy at George Washington University. "So if you add cheaper people to the pool, like immigrants, you reduce the average cost." More undocumented workers, in other words, means lower premiums for everyone.
    The actuarial advantages don't end there. As it is now, undocumented workers (and others) who can't pay their way receive free emergency and charitable care—a service that costs those of us with health insurance an additional $1,000 per year, as Obama noted. But if illegals were covered, this hidden tax would decrease, further lowering our premiums and "relieving some of the financial burden on state and local governments," says Harold Pollack, a University of Chicago professor who specializes in poverty and public health. What's more, employers currently have a clear economic incentive to hire undocumented immigrants: they don't require coverage. A plan that mandates insurance for native workers but not their illegal counterparts actually makes life harder on the blue-collar Americans competing for jobs (and railing against immigrants) because it means that hiring them will cost more than hiring a recent transplant from Mexico City. As The Washington Post's Ezra Klein recently explained, "If you're really worried about the native-born workforce, what you want to do is minimize the differences in labor costs between different types of workers. A health care policy that enlarges those differences—that makes documented workers more expensive compared to undocumented workers—is actually worse for the documented workers."
    At this point, you're probably wondering whether taxpayers would have to foot a bigger bill for these newly insured illegals. Not necessarily—at least in theory. As Obama said in Wednesday's speech, "Like any private insurance company, the public insurance option would have to be self-sufficient and rely on the premiums it collects" to fund whatever care it provides. Given that many undocumented workers leave the country before they're old enough to require much medical care, says Phillip Longman of the New America Foundation, "you could set up the system in a way that that they wind up contributing as much or more than they receive" in low-income subsidies, especially when the "offsetting savings of lower emergency-room use" are factored in.
    But despite the potential economic upside, the right shouldn't stress: America won't insure its illegal immigrants any time soon. "The hard thing here is that the current state of perception on immigration is eroding our sense of social solidarity," says Longman, who believes, like the rest of the experts quoted in this story, that covering undocumented workers is both politically and logistically impractical. "People simply don't want money going to people on the other side of the tracks." That pretty much explains why Obama was so determined to clear up the confusion—and why Joe Wilson was so determined to keep it alive. Never mind that our wallets would be better off if Wilson were right. Money, after all, isn't everything—even in politics.
    Find this article at http://www.newsweek.com/id/215340

  • #2
    Re: The Case for Health Insurance for Illegals | Newsweek

    Every man woman and child alive on this earth today has the right to free healthcare, a home, clothing, education, and food. Every person should have the right to have as many children as they choose.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: The Case for Health Insurance for Illegals | Newsweek

      Originally posted by Serge_Tomiko View Post
      Every man woman and child alive on this earth today has the right to free healthcare, a home, clothing, education, and food. Every person should have the right to have as many children as they choose.
      and a Mercedes , Rolex, and Gucci shoes. Oh yeah, and hi-def TV. Who can we get to pay for it, Serge?
      "...the western financial system has already failed. The failure has just not yet been realized, while the system remains confident that it is still alive." Jesse

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: The Case for Health Insurance for Illegals | Newsweek

        Originally posted by rjwjr View Post
        and a Mercedes , Rolex, and Gucci shoes. Oh yeah, and hi-def TV. Who can we get to pay for it, Serge?
        Funny! I guess the author just happen to "forget" to mention that the free healthcare would be an added incentive to sneak across the border? Sorry amigos, I work with too many talented foreigners who have come here the legal route and put up with the BS from the INS to feel sorry for those who break the law. I always thought Mexico's laws in regard to illegals were spot on: you sneak in, you go to jail.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: The Case for Health Insurance for Illegals | Newsweek

          Originally posted by Serge_Tomiko View Post
          Every man woman and child alive on this earth today has the right to free healthcare, a home, clothing, education, and food. Every person should have the right to have as many children as they choose.
          You might as well add the "right for water to flow uphill".

          It is a manifest revelation to all except the willfully blind that we begin to age at an exponential rate in our mid-30s,
          and that all of us without exception experience various malfunctions in our physical bodies.

          You are asserting a claim against the present order of creation that simply does not exist, and in this created order never will.

          The poorest of the poor who have had their legs amputated have reason to hope for the charity of their fellow man, and we who turn a blind eye to their suffering are cursed, and will receive the calcification of our souls.
          But even they have no "right" to "free" healthcare - or anything else in this life.

          None whatsoever.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: The Case for Health Insurance for Illegals | Newsweek

            I talked about this in a post in the Select section:

            the present health care system and its bizarre payment scheme is exactly what allows illegals to 'free ride'

            The example I used was the statement: "from the DR to the ER"

            The opthalmologist fellow who is working on my eye was a resident at Columbia medical school.

            She had direct experience of a large number of foreigners who would fly from places like the Dominican Republic to NY in order to get medical treatment.

            One specific example was where the patient had a type of treatment where pellets of some medicine were embedded in the patient's arms in the Dominican Republic. Said patient developed an infection, self withdrew from the hospital in the DR, flew to New York, then entered the Columbia ER.

            Another example was where an illegal immigrant living in the US allowed an infection to rise to life-risking levels because of their fear of being deported; they did not go to the ER until very expensive treatment was mandated.

            The point is that our present system has so many uninsured Americans that it is impossible to distinguish between those uninsured vs. those illegal alien residents vs. the outright stealth health foreigners.

            All three of these categories have clear financial impact on the system but all three have different levels of contribution to American society and the US economy.

            Sure, it is easy for laymen to tell doctors not to treat someone whose life is in danger, but to say so is no different than asking doctors to NOT use an expensive but ultimately nearly pointless life prolongation procedure.

            Whatever your opinions on health care, those who say the present system is fine should consider the financial impact of the first point and the moral impact of the second.

            To close, some excerpts from a EU report on health care and illegal aliens - an example on the thinking on this subject in nations where affordable access to health care in case of illness or pregnancy is already a right:

            http://www.medimmigrant.be/uploads/P...20the%20EU.pdf

            In fact, IMs [illegal immigration/migrants] are indirect tax payers, which could have significant entitlement implications in those cases where the public health care system receives a signfificant proportion of its funding from this kind of revenue.

            As Figure 3 shows, in the early 1990s the proportion of public health expenditure met by indirect taxes was as high as 22.2% in Italy, 32.6% in Spain and 41.7% in the UK whereas in SHI countries that proportion was much smaller (regrettably, more recent figures are not available).

            The fact that indrect taxation systems are largely regressive makes IMs likely to be non-negligible controibutors to some tax-financed health care budget in the EU, even after allowing for the possibility that consumptions patterns of IMs could be below average.
            IM health decision tree.bmp

            More interesting points from the report:

            There is some evidence that IMs use public health care faciilities significantly less than the rest of the population. Measuring utilisation rates of public health care resources by IMs is not an easy task, but it has been attempted by two studies that reached similar conclusions.

            The first one, authored by Torres and Sanz, was undertaken in Madrid (Spain) in 1997 (note: before Law 4/2000 was passed), and reports that seeking public health care for the last episode of illness was significantly more frequent if immigrants had legal status, evidencing the existence of a 'strong barrier to heatlh care utilization for sick illegal immigrants'. The second study, by Reijnveld et al,. is based on a nationwide survey among 1,148 Dutch GPs (conducted in 1997) and argues that, assuming a population of 100,000 illegal immigrants in the Netherlands and the fact that they represented 0.46% of all GP contacts, their GP contact rate would be, at most, about 70% of that of legal residents.
            It is also worth remarking the enormous impact that certain negative attitudes of health workers towards IMs have in impeding, consciously or not, access to health care.

            That is especially relevant in the light of evidence that when health care professionals adopt positive and sustained 'proactive' roles towards IMs, restrictive legislations may not only be impossible to be enforced, but also end up being modified.

            Italy is a example of the latter, where, according to Zincone, 'widened access to the public health service for undocumented immigrants is an example of the role played by local contra legem practice in transforming Italisan legislation'.

            The former (lack of enforcement) applies to the UK, where the relevant trade unions have always called on their members not to participate in the immigration checks that the 1989 regulations imposed on hospitals.As a result, many IMs ae de facto using the NHS for free.
            So, there is evidence that forcing doctors to not follow the Hippocratic Oath works.

            Does that mean we should push for this practice?

            I swear by Apollo Physician and Asclepius and Hygieia and Panaceia and all the gods, and goddesses, making them my witnesses, that I will fulfil according to my ability and judgment this oath and this covenant:

            To hold him who has taught me this art as equal to my parents and to live my life in partnership with him, and if he is in need of money to give him a share of minecall INS, and to regard his offspring as equal to my brothers in male lineage and to teach them this art–if they desire to learn it–without fee and covenant; to give a share of precepts and oral instruction and all the other learning to my sons and to the sons of him who has instructed me and to pupils who have signed the covenant and have taken the oath according to medical law, but to no one else.

            I will apply dietic measures for the benefit of the sick according to my ability and judgmenttheir ability to pay; I will keep them from harm and injusticeing my pocketbook.

            I will neither give a deadly drug to anybody if asked for it, nor will I make a suggestion to this effect. Similarly I will not give to a woman an abortive remedy. In purity and holiness I will guard my life and my art.

            I will not use the knife, not even on sufferers from stone, but will withdraw in favor of such men as are engaged in this work.

            Whatever houses I may visit, I will come for the benefit of the sick, remaining free of all intentional injustice, of all mischief and in particular of sexual relations with both female and male persons, be they free or slaves money.

            What I may see or hear in the course of treatment or even outside of the treatment in regard to the life of men, which on no account one must spread abroad, I will keep myself holding such things shameful to be spoken about.

            If I fulfill this oath and do not violate it, may it be granted to me to enjoy life and art, being honored with fame among all men for all time to come; if I transgress it and swear falsely, may the opposite of all this be my lot.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: The Case for Health Insurance for Illegals | Newsweek

              Originally posted by Serge_Tomiko View Post
              Every man woman and child alive on this earth today has the right to free healthcare, a home, clothing, education, and food.
              Hey Serge, so why not give up your US citizenship (if you have it) and become an illegal immigrant in Mexico City? Walk into an emergency room and see what happens to you and then fight the Mexican's for your right to "free health care" in Mexico!

              Mexico claims they have universial health care for all citizens and so why should Mexican citizens illegally in the USA try to get USA health care?

              Why do American hospitals not send the bills to the Mexican government insurance plans?

              Why does Mexican "free public" universal insurance NOT cover health care for its own citizens when traveling abroad (or illegally working in America)?

              When I travel to Mexico I MUST have AMERICAN health insurance AND car insurance, why is that?

              I really do suggest you go to Mexico without health care insurance and then fight the good fight for the people of the earth against the Mexican government.

              Or Serge, is what your saying that everyone on earth has the right to get free health care from the American Government paid for by American Taxpayers?

              Even with health insurance I pay like $5,000 per year for health care, it would be great if you send me a private message with you e-mail so that you can start to Pay Pal me my $5,000 and pay for my "right" to have free health care...Serge? Serge? I have a right to free health care and I think you should be paying for it? only $5,000 per year, we can use PayPal or Amazon's payment system, due each Jan 1st for the next 50 years!

              The problem you overlook is the concept of "illegal"

              "Illegal, or unlawful, is used to describe something that is prohibited or not authorized by law or, more generally, by rules specific to a particular situation" - From Wikipedia

              Now assume America is still a nation built on "laws", which is a key pillar to this concept American's like called "freedom" - as we've seen in the banking crisis and in the U.S.S.R and in illegal Mexicans ... when you have a class of people that do not need to follow the "laws" that others do then you lose your freedom as a nation.
              Last edited by MulaMan; September 17, 2009, 01:17 PM.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: The Case for Health Insurance for Illegals | Newsweek

                Originally posted by rjwjr View Post
                and a Mercedes , Rolex, and Gucci shoes. Oh yeah, and hi-def TV. Who can we get to pay for it, Serge?
                Let's start with YOU!

                Get to work!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: The Case for Health Insurance for Illegals | Newsweek

                  am i the only one that thought serge was being sarcastic guys?? :p

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: The Case for Health Insurance for Illegals | Newsweek

                    I agree. It's one thing to pay Pedro less than livable wage to mow my lawn or wash dishes at that good Steak house on Main street. If his kid gets a disease like swine flu or tuberculosis, then I expect Pedro to keep him in his slum until he is "better." I don't go to his part of town, anyway.
                    Leech:

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: The Case for Health Insurance for Illegals | Newsweek

                      Originally posted by mikedev10 View Post
                      am i the only one that thought serge was being sarcastic guys?? :p
                      A lot of the liberals on this site like Dennis Kucinich. Perhaps as recently as a year ago, definitely after Lehman, the guy gave a speech on the floor of the House essentially stating that 1) everyone has a right to free healthcare and 2) everyone has the right to come to the US.

                      I just had to spice it up a bit. But sheesh, I had no idea iTulip was so easy to troll. You guys best be careful!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: The Case for Health Insurance for Illegals | Newsweek

                        Originally posted by Serge_Tomiko View Post
                        A lot of the liberals on this site like Dennis Kucinich. Perhaps as recently as a year ago, definitely after Lehman, the guy gave a speech on the floor of the House essentially stating that 1) everyone has a right to free healthcare and 2) everyone has the right to come to the US.

                        I just had to spice it up a bit. But sheesh, I had no idea iTulip was so easy to troll. You guys best be careful!
                        OK we've been had. :rolleyes:

                        On the select forums, it's serious -- and serious opinion, but this is the public news area, so....

                        Well done, but no repeats please -- we don't want to become Yahoo....:eek:

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: The Case for Health Insurance for Illegals | Newsweek

                          Originally posted by mikedev10 View Post
                          am i the only one that thought serge was being sarcastic guys?? :p
                          No.

                          123456789
                          Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read. -Groucho

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by c1ue View Post
                            I talked about this in a post in the Select section:

                            the present health care system and its bizarre payment scheme is exactly what allows illegals to 'free ride'
                            Illegals to free ride? It's what allows poor native-born citizens to get a free ride, let alone illegals. And the rest of us that actually pay our hospital bills pay for their healthcare. It's good to know people that are accountants at public not-for-profit hospitals, they tell you what actually happens.

                            So other than switching the HMOs and insurance companies skimming money to the government skimming money, I'm trying to figure out what the debate's all about, since we know that the poor people aren't going to pay for their healthcare if the government is running the program.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: The Case for Health Insurance for Illegals | Newsweek

                              Originally posted by Serge_Tomiko View Post
                              Every man woman and child alive on this earth today has the right to free healthcare, a home, clothing, education, and food. Every person should have the right to have as many children as they choose.
                              I always though of that as a basic decency.


                              Universal Declaration of Human Rights

                              Article 1.

                              All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.

                              Article 7.

                              All are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to equal protection of the law. All are entitled to equal protection against any discrimination in violation of this Declaration and against any incitement to such discrimination.

                              Article 10.

                              Everyone is entitled in full equality to a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal, in the determination of his rights and obligations and of any criminal charge against him.

                              Article 12.

                              No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.

                              Article 13.

                              (1) Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each state.
                              (2) Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.

                              Article 16.

                              (1) Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to race, nationality or religion, have the right to marry and to found a family. They are entitled to equal rights as to marriage, during marriage and at its dissolution.

                              Article 25.

                              (1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.
                              (2) Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance. All children, whether born in or out of wedlock, shall enjoy the same social protection.
                              It's Economics vs Thermodynamics. Thermodynamics wins.

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