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  • Adam Smith, America, & Argentina

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/c...mic-world.html


    Adam Smith would not be optimistic in today's economic world
    Adam Smith once commented that "there is a great deal of ruin in a nation". He meant that bungling governments imposed only a limited check on the economic performance of a Great Nation.

    Published: 6:59PM BST 06 Sep 2009

    As Nathanael Smith and I show in our study of US economic contractions, Adam Smith would be much less sanguine were he confronted by today's financial crisis and the US government's response. Indeed, it is not impossible that the US will experience the kind of economic collapse from first- to third-world status experienced by Argentina under the national socialist governance of Juan Peron.

    The US economy suffers from a growing culture of indebtedness that has increasingly contaminated the federal government since 2001 and has spilled over dramatically into private household behaviour. The combination of the ill-conceived fiscal-furnace fired by President Bush and the US Congress and the reckless monetary-furnace fired by Alan Greenspan and Ben Bernanke throughout the period 2001-2007, created unsustainable housing market and stock market bubbles whose collapse brought on the financial crisis and economic contraction of 2008-2009.

    The policy responses to the debt bubble demonstrate crude political consideration rather than economic understanding. If excessive government indebtedness is a major source of the problem, why increase the government debt? Why encourage households to go yet further into debt?

    The prognosis is catastrophic if projected government policies are not cut back. According to the White House's own estimates, the federal budget deficit in 2009 will be $1.6 trillion, approximately 11.2pc of the overall economy, the highest on record since the end of the Second World War. In 2019, the national debt will represent 76.5pc of the US national economy, the highest proportion since just after the Second World War. In such circumstances, the international reserve status of the US dollar will not survive. As it fades, so interest rates on government securities will rise and the real burden of servicing the debt will increase. In such circumstances, the US economy will teeter on the edge of a black hole.

    Prosperity and full employment in the US will only be restored by a return to laissez-faire capitalism. Our study outlines a radical, but politically feasible, approach. Monetary policy should be expansionary. But, on the micro-economic side, tariffs and other trade barriers should be repealed unilaterally; a "Right-to-Work" Act should reduce the minimum wage and curtail the powers of unions; and business regulation should be reduced. Individual banks and their counterparties should not be bailed out, although the system should be protected by ensuring that failing banks are wound up in an orderly fashion – this is the only way to restore market discipline.

    Charles K Rowley is Duncan Black Professor of Economics at George Mason University and general director of The Locke Institute

  • #2
    Re: Adam Smith, America, & Argentina

    Originally posted by doom&gloom View Post
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/c...mic-world.html


    Adam Smith would not be optimistic in today's economic world
    Adam Smith once commented that "there is a great deal of ruin in a nation". He meant that bungling governments imposed only a limited check on the economic performance of a Great Nation.

    Published: 6:59PM BST 06 Sep 2009

    As Nathanael Smith and I show in our study of US economic contractions, Adam Smith would be much less sanguine were he confronted by today's financial crisis and the US government's response. Indeed, it is not impossible that the US will experience the kind of economic collapse from first- to third-world status experienced by Argentina under the national socialist governance of Juan Peron.
    more tripe... the devastation came under a financial oligarchy that is still in power there.



    The US economy suffers from a growing culture of indebtedness that has increasingly contaminated the federal government since 2001 and has spilled over dramatically into private household behaviour. The combination of the ill-conceived fiscal-furnace fired by President Bush and the US Congress and the reckless monetary-furnace fired by Alan Greenspan and Ben Bernanke throughout the period 2001-2007, created unsustainable housing market and stock market bubbles whose collapse brought on the financial crisis and economic contraction of 2008-2009.

    The policy responses to the debt bubble demonstrate crude political consideration rather than economic understanding. If excessive government indebtedness is a major source of the problem, why increase the government debt? Why encourage households to go yet further into debt?

    The prognosis is catastrophic if projected government policies are not cut back. According to the White House's own estimates, the federal budget deficit in 2009 will be $1.6 trillion, approximately 11.2pc of the overall economy, the highest on record since the end of the Second World War. In 2019, the national debt will represent 76.5pc of the US national economy, the highest proportion since just after the Second World War. In such circumstances, the international reserve status of the US dollar will not survive. As it fades, so interest rates on government securities will rise and the real burden of servicing the debt will increase. In such circumstances, the US economy will teeter on the edge of a black hole.
    blah, blah, blah... old news.

    Prosperity and full employment in the US will only be restored by a return to laissez-faire capitalism. Our study outlines a radical, but politically feasible, approach.
    bwaha ha ha! feasible to whom? the oligarchs running the place?

    Monetary policy should be expansionary. But, on the micro-economic side, tariffs and other trade barriers should be repealed unilaterally; a "Right-to-Work" Act should reduce the minimum wage and curtail the powers of unions; and business regulation should be reduced.
    what unions? there are no unions in the usa.

    reduce the min wage. 30% min wage earners are on food stamps... 20 yrs of 'monetary policy should be expansionary' made the food too expensive.

    business regulation reduced? politically unconnected industries are regulated & connected ones (fire) not. see the result?

    Individual banks and their counterparties should not be bailed out, although the system should be protected by ensuring that failing banks are wound up in an orderly fashion – this is the only way to restore market discipline.
    yeh, that's what paulson told us.

    Charles K Rowley is Duncan Black Professor of Economics at George Mason University and general director of The Locke Institute
    Charles K Rowley is an idealogue who works for the financial oligarchs.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Adam Smith, America, & Argentina

      You nailed this one, MM.

      To add one point:

      "Individual banks and their counterparties should not be bailed out, although the system should be protected by ensuring that failing banks are wound up in an orderly fashion – this is the only way to restore market discipline."

      The idea of market discipline for banks stems from the well known (and recently demonstrated problem caused by deposit insurance. Market discipline is lost when bankers who are thus protected from the downside find risky loans and investments irresistible. Government's role is normally to prevent bankers from taking these risks through regulation, not by simply winding up the failing banks in an orderly fashion. What rubbish!:mad:

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Adam Smith, America, & Argentina

        Originally posted by metalman View Post
        more tripe... the devastation came under a financial oligarchy that is still in power there.








        blah, blah, blah... old news.



        bwaha ha ha! feasible to whom? the oligarchs running the place?

        what unions? there are no unions in the usa.

        reduce the min wage. 30% min wage earners are on food stamps... 20 yrs of 'monetary policy should be expansionary' made the food too expensive.

        business regulation reduced? politically unconnected industries are regulated & connected ones (fire) not. see the result?



        yeh, that's what paulson told us.



        Charles K Rowley is an idealogue who works for the financial oligarchs.



        Metalman,

        You've outdone yourself this time. I think the "Right to Work" act to replace the minimum wage while opening our borders to a flood of cheap imports is about the most God awful proposition imaginable. Of course, a solution like this would be right up the alley of someone like Phil Gramm. After all, it was all those lazy, whining workers who borrowed more than they could afford that got us into this mess to begin with. ;) You know, we absolutely have to protect those honest, hard working Wall Street types from predatory consumers. Anyhow, gotta go. Have to help craft another handout, errr I mean some financial assistance for our poor victimized Wall Street brethren.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Adam Smith, America, & Argentina

          Originally posted by metalman View Post
          more tripe... the devastation came under a financial oligarchy that is still in power there.
          I don't think you are actually familiar with the history of Argentina. Then again, neither are most Argentines. There is a tendancy to blame the current state of affairs on the oligachs, the IMF etc and eulogise Peron.

          But Argentina spent decades digging itself into a hole, and the seeds of destruction were sown under Peron. Peron created 20 years of prosperity, something of a golden age, doubled wages for the average worker, built schools and hospitals everywhere etc. And consequently people in Argentina look back on him as their greatest ever leader.

          But he did all this with borrowed money. Everything was fantastic as long as Argentina could go further into debt every year. It wasn't until after his death that the bills came due, and the consequences of his policies became apparent.

          The long term consequences were that GDP per capita peaked in 1973 at $8000 and then stagnated for the next 35 years, punctuated by a series of crises. Argentina went from a first world society to a third world society.

          During the long golden years of Perons rule, Argentina became increasingly less competive, more bureaucratic, more corrupt, a much harder place to do business. But a doubling of the goverment sector and an increasing reliance on debt to fund spending masked this. As long as the tab was open, the party could go on.

          The parallels with the USA should be obvious.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Adam Smith, America, & Argentina

            Originally posted by thousandmilemargin View Post
            I don't think you are actually familiar with the history of Argentina. Then again, neither are most Argentines. There is a tendancy to blame the current state of affairs on the oligachs, the IMF etc and eulogise Peron.

            But Argentina spent decades digging itself into a hole, and the seeds of destruction were sown under Peron. Peron created 20 years of prosperity, something of a golden age, doubled wages for the average worker, built schools and hospitals everywhere etc. And consequently people in Argentina look back on him as their greatest ever leader.

            But he did all this with borrowed money. Everything was fantastic as long as Argentina could go further into debt every year. It wasn't until after his death that the bills came due, and the consequences of his policies became apparent.

            The long term consequences were that GDP per capita peaked in 1973 at $8000 and then stagnated for the next 35 years, punctuated by a series of crises. Argentina went from a first world society to a third world society.

            During the long golden years of Perons rule, Argentina became increasingly less competive, more bureaucratic, more corrupt, a much harder place to do business. But a doubling of the goverment sector and an increasing reliance on debt to fund spending masked this. As long as the tab was open, the party could go on.

            The parallels with the USA should be obvious.
            I acknowledge only passing knowledge of Argentina's recent history and appreciate your narrative. Could you outline the parallels with the USA? I'm not sure what they would be.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Adam Smith, America, & Argentina

              Adam Smith believed that individuals should pursue their own self serving interest over the interest of the nation. he believed in some magical way that peoples own desires equated to what was good for the society as a whole. In Adam Smith's utopia, what is happening now is a natural conclusion.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Adam Smith, America, & Argentina

                Originally posted by Wild Style View Post
                Adam Smith believed that individuals should pursue their own self serving interest over the interest of the nation. he believed in some magical way that peoples own desires equated to what was good for the society as a whole. In Adam Smith's utopia, what is happening now is a natural conclusion.
                I disagree. My understanding is that Adam Smith believed that individuals should pursue their own self-serving interest, and in so doing, this would best serve the interest of the nation.

                Part of our disagreement may be on how you define "interest of the nation". I define it as having the strongest and most vibrant economy possible. If you define "interest" as striving for equality of outcome (redistribution of income, high taxes, nanny state), rather than equality of opportunity then that is where we may disagree. Adam Smith is more a "survival of the fittest" mentality in my opinion, which doesn't sit well with many "feel good" individuals whose heart is in the right place, but whose economic ideas are misguided and, over time, hurtful to a nation by making it economically weaker. In this help-the-non-productive-at-the-expense-of-the-productive utopia, what is happening now is a natural conclusion.

                And by the way, I consider the oligarchs that are receiving unfair bail-outs at the expense of all taxpayers to be in the category of the non-productive. They should have been left to fail. They give a bad name and an unwarranted bad reputation to the millions of productive, honest, hard-working business people in the productive economy. They are larger parasites than the lazies that sit around all day and collect government hand-outs. There is no place for either of them in an Adam Smith economy.
                "...the western financial system has already failed. The failure has just not yet been realized, while the system remains confident that it is still alive." Jesse

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Adam Smith, America, & Argentina

                  Thanks for saving me the heartburn of composing a reply to this post.

                  Unfortunately I am becoming less and less confident that America is going to find her way and come out of this mess. Articles like this one (crackpot) are becoming more and more commonplace. Mention of the actual imbalances (trade and capital flows) that were harped on a year ago are rare. Proposed regulatory changes appear camera happy and ineffectual by design.

                  Like the Old Man in A Christmas Story we are going to try and glue the sad remains of our shattered 'major award' back together. :p

                  Will

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Adam Smith, America, & Argentina

                    Originally posted by thousandmilemargin View Post
                    I don't think you are actually familiar with the history of Argentina. Then again, neither are most Argentines. There is a tendancy to blame the current state of affairs on the oligachs, the IMF etc and eulogise Peron.

                    But Argentina spent decades digging itself into a hole, and the seeds of destruction were sown under Peron. Peron created 20 years of prosperity, something of a golden age, doubled wages for the average worker, built schools and hospitals everywhere etc. And consequently people in Argentina look back on him as their greatest ever leader.

                    But he did all this with borrowed money. Everything was fantastic as long as Argentina could go further into debt every year. It wasn't until after his death that the bills came due, and the consequences of his policies became apparent.

                    The long term consequences were that GDP per capita peaked in 1973 at $8000 and then stagnated for the next 35 years, punctuated by a series of crises. Argentina went from a first world society to a third world society.

                    During the long golden years of Perons rule, Argentina became increasingly less competive, more bureaucratic, more corrupt, a much harder place to do business. But a doubling of the goverment sector and an increasing reliance on debt to fund spending masked this. As long as the tab was open, the party could go on.

                    The parallels with the USA should be obvious.
                    you make it sound like it matters what banner the debt party waves as it spends a country into oblivion... a left wing 'wealth redistribution' banner that enriches bankers or a right wing 'free markets' banner that enriches bankers.

                    in argentina the seeds were sown by a pro-debt party under a leftist banner. in the usa by republicans under a 'free market banner'.



                    after 30 yrs of this we have...

                    - bigger gov't
                    - more debt
                    - more corruption
                    - enriched bankers

                    in the end, so what? what difference does it make? the outcome will be the same. at some point the debt can't be rolled over, a debt crisis ensues, then capital flight & currency crisis... Does USA 2009 = Argentina 2001? Part I: Falling economy reaches terminal velocity

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Adam Smith, America, & Argentina

                      Originally Posted by thousandmilemargin
                      Peron created 20 years of prosperity, something of a golden age, doubled wages for the average worker, built schools and hospitals everywhere etc. And consequently people in Argentina look back on him as their greatest ever leader.

                      But he did all this with borrowed money. Everything was fantastic as long as Argentina could go further into debt every year. It wasn't until after his death that the bills came due, and the consequences of his policies became apparent.

                      The long term consequences were that GDP per capita peaked in 1973 at $8000 and then stagnated for the next 35 years, punctuated by a series of crises. Argentina went from a first world society to a third world society.
                      Originally posted by Verrocchio View Post
                      I acknowledge only passing knowledge of Argentina's recent history and appreciate your narrative. Could you outline the parallels with the USA? I'm not sure what they would be.
                      The parallel that jumps out at me is this. The U.S. has spent the last half century in an era of prosperity, with increasingly wealth abundant for the average citizen.

                      However we (I'm an American) have done it with borrowed money. Now the bill is coming due.

                      If we follow in Argentina's footsteps, our GDP has peaked and will stagnate for the next 35 (or whatever) years, which will be punctuated by a series of crises. The U.S. will go from a first world society to a third world society.

                      P.S. -- Metalman's link to EJ's Argentina article Does USA 2009 = Argentina 2001? Part I: Falling economy reaches terminal velocity is more useful than my comment.
                      Last edited by ThePythonicCow; September 08, 2009, 12:07 PM.
                      Most folks are good; a few aren't.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Adam Smith, America, & Argentina

                        Originally posted by metalman View Post
                        you make it sound like it matters what banner the debt party waves as it spends a country into oblivion... a left wing 'wealth redistribution' banner that enriches bankers or a right wing 'free markets' banner that enriches bankers.

                        in argentina the seeds were sown by a pro-debt party under a leftist banner. in the usa by republicans under a 'free market banner'.



                        after 30 yrs of this we have...

                        - bigger gov't
                        - more debt
                        - more corruption
                        - enriched bankers

                        in the end, so what? what difference does it make? the outcome will be the same. at some point the debt can't be rolled over, a debt crisis ensues, then capital flight & currency crisis... Does USA 2009 = Argentina 2001? Part I: Falling economy reaches terminal velocity

                        Thank you for once again posting a link.

                        I almost always take the link and reread the post. This was I think the 5th time I read that one. Please keep up the good work. As Ej said in that article.

                        "Our readers understand economics as an ongoing process"

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Adam Smith, America, & Argentina

                          Originally posted by metalman View Post
                          you make it sound like it matters what banner the debt party waves as it spends a country into oblivion... a left wing 'wealth redistribution' banner that enriches bankers or a right wing 'free markets' banner that enriches bankers.....
                          in argentina the seeds were sown by a pro-debt party under a leftist banner. in the usa by republicans under a 'free market banner'.
                          ......
                          in the end, so what? what difference does it make? the outcome will be the same. at some point the debt can't be rolled over, a debt crisis ensues, then capital flight & currency crisis...

                          I agree, it makes no difference which party spends a country into bankruptcy.

                          My point was that in the case of Argentina that damage was actually done during a period Argentines remember fondly. Two generations later they still haven't worked out where they went wrong. Peron is still seen as a hero.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Adam Smith, America, & Argentina

                            Originally posted by thousandmilemargin View Post
                            I agree, it makes no difference which party spends a country into bankruptcy.

                            My point was that in the case of Argentina that damage was actually done during a period Argentines remember fondly. Two generations later they still haven't worked out where they went wrong. Peron is still seen as a hero.
                            You mean just like people in the US will be fondly remembering the Reagan - Bush (2005) years a few decades from now? ;)

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Adam Smith, America, & Argentina

                              Originally posted by metalman View Post
                              you make it sound like it matters what banner the debt party waves as it spends a country into oblivion... a left wing 'wealth redistribution' banner that enriches bankers or a right wing 'free markets' banner that enriches bankers.

                              in argentina the seeds were sown by a pro-debt party under a leftist banner. in the usa by republicans under a 'free market banner'.



                              after 30 yrs of this we have...

                              - bigger gov't
                              - more debt
                              - more corruption
                              - enriched bankers

                              in the end, so what? what difference does it make? the outcome will be the same. at some point the debt can't be rolled over, a debt crisis ensues, then capital flight & currency crisis... Does USA 2009 = Argentina 2001? Part I: Falling economy reaches terminal velocity

                              It wasn't entirely a Republican operation. The Dems controlled Congress for a big chunk of that period.

                              Comment

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