who will pay for the Boomers' retirement -- and are they entitled?

[Tet]

Re: who will pay for the Boomers' retirement -- and are they entitled?

Meanwhile in Russia, Putin in his State of the Nation address announces a 65% increase to pensions over the next two years and a rouble for rouble match for private pensions. He acknowledges that a state that doesn't take care of it's elderly isn't much of a society. This of course after Yelstin kills off more Russians than Stalin, most of them elderly or the very young. Average life expectancy of a Russian during Yelstin's era drops into the fifties. Who knows, maybe one day the US will get a Putin instead of all the Yelstins we've been getting for the last sixty plus years.

[Pervilis Spurius]

Re: who will pay for the Boomers' retirement -- and are they entitled?

Meanwhile in Russia, Putin in his State of the Nation address announces a 65% increase to pensions over the next two years and a rouble for rouble match for private pensions. He acknowledges that a state that doesn't take care of it's elderly isn't much of a society. This of course after Yelstin kills off more Russians than Stalin, most of them elderly or the very young. Average life expectancy of a Russian during Yelstin's era drops into the fifties. Who knows, maybe one day the US will get a Putin instead of all the Yelstins we've been getting for the last sixty plus years.

You're an optimistic fellow.......aren't you Tet?

[Finster]

Re: who will pay for the Boomers' retirement -- and are they entitled?

You haven't met myself or a great many boomers. I know *very* few boomers who do not feel like your father.

And in the interests of a broader perspective, do consider the world the the prior (Greatest) generation left us boomers... and the one that was left to the Greatest generation. This is not a new story.

If the "boomers" screwed up, it was by electing the politicians they did. The blame for the US financial straits lies most directly with the latter, as it is they that put into place the unworkable programs and incurred the government debt that are threatening the nation's economy well being.

[Tet]

Re: who will pay for the Boomers' retirement -- and are they entitled?

You're an optimistic fellow.......aren't you Tet?

Just sitting here watching the pendulum swing and I noticed that it's actually moving the other direction. I think when mother's tell there sons to go off to war and either come back with victory or come back on their shield in a war the emperor knows can't be won, you've got one of the final acts of Empire. I'd say the Empire hit it's zenith about ten years ago. Seems we're engaged in acts of desperation just to maintain what's left and that doesn't seem to be working.

What happens next? Would look like the sharks are getting ready to feed on each other and since I'm just a small fish swimming in a large ocean, a world with less sharks is a world to be optimistic about. Now hopefully I can just stay out of the way while they eat each other up.

[spunky]

Re: who will pay for the Boomers' retirement -- and are they entitled?

You haven't met myself or a great many boomers. I know *very* few boomers who do not feel like your father.

And in the interests of a broader perspective, do consider the world the the prior (Greatest) generation left us boomers... and the one that was left to the Greatest generation. This is not a new story.

Yes, I have Bart. I have a chance at the hospital where I work to talk to numerous boomers and those of the greatest generation. Though boomers might acknowledge the problems in this country, few, if any accept any form of responsibility for the conditions left their grandchildren, or children. I was lucky as my father grew up in an extended family, not a nuclear family. I spent my youth listening to people who grew up in 1890's, pre WW1, as my grandmother was the 2nd youngest of 13. Here father, fresh off the boat from Scotland, in 1860.This gave me a unique perspective, living with people who were out west, before all the states had statehood. Free land, not more than a generation removed from the gold rush, and Indian wars

I am not going to sit here and blame any group of people who were born into america between a certain time frame; that would be naive and immature. I can look though, at my level of education( first generation college grad ),and my standard of living compared to my parents, and see a signifigant drop off.

I do what I can, been voting Libertarian for awhile, making my yearly donation. Learning, talking to people about silver as real money, and trying to educate myself to protect what little wealth I have.

The boomers did a real piss poor job of electing people who would protect workers rights, and people who had any vision. Political correctness grew under the boomer watch, as did huge multinationals that squash any workers rights. Any chance of weaning ourselves from the saudi oil titty, after the 1970's energy crunch ???? Nope, same ole story decade after decade.

Now excuse me. I have to go wretch, while these giddy morons mentally masturbate over the DJI :cool:

[bart]

Re: who will pay for the Boomers' retirement -- and are they entitled?

Yes, I have Bart. I have a chance at the hospital where I work to talk to numerous boomers and those of the greatest generation. Though boomers might acknowledge the problems in this country, few, if any accept any form of responsibility for the conditions left their grandchildren, or children. I was lucky as my father grew up in an extended family, not a nuclear family. I spent my youth listening to people who grew up in 1890's, pre WW1, as my grandmother was the 2nd youngest of 13. Here father, fresh off the boat from Scotland, in 1860.This gave me a unique perspective, living with people who were out west, before all the states had statehood. Free land, not more than a generation removed from the gold rush, and Indian wars

I am not going to sit here and blame any group of people who were born into america between a certain time frame; that would be naive and immature. I can look though, at my level of education( first generation college grad ),and my standard of living compared to my parents, and see a signifigant drop off.

I do what I can, been voting Libertarian for awhile, making my yearly donation. Learning, talking to people about silver as real money, and trying to educate myself to protect what little wealth I have.

The boomers did a real piss poor job of electing people who would protect workers rights, and people who had any vision. Political correctness grew under the boomer watch, as did huge multinationals that squash any workers rights. Any chance of weaning ourselves from the saudi oil titty, after the 1970's energy crunch ???? Nope, same ole story decade after decade.

Now excuse me. I have to go wretch, while these giddy morons mentally masturbate over the DJI :cool:

All your points are well taken, and I generally agree with them and especially about the standard of living and the DJI... and also will point out that your general "decade after decade" point is also what I believe needs to be taken much more into account.

It's not just us boomers, and most especially not all boomers, that have been irresponsible. We did not all vote for LBJ for example and many of us had something to do with getting the country out of Vietnam, and some worked for the Clean Water Act, etc, etc. My point is not so much on those specific political or ecological points, but rather to both point out that many boomers were and are aware of the various issues that you rightfully decry and have *done* things about them, but also that earlier generations had similar faults.
How about the faults of the greatest generation regarding the quality of education the boomers received?

Where was the generation that preceded the greatest generation, for example, when the Federal Reserve Act was passed in 1913? I think your assumption about their superior education has merit... and yet that generation allowed it and elected Wilson.
And, where was the greatest generation as the "military/industrial/corporate" complex was being built in the late '40s and '50s, etc.... and the same with the Fed and central bankster shenanigans?


And not intending to be accusatory at all, but where are all Gen X and Gen Y folk that will *do* and are *doing* something about current situations that we discuss here? Boomers were out in force about Vietnam and I see much fewer of current generations actually protesting and doing something, other than decrying it verbally... and please don't either take that personally or as anything other than an example.

I actually do submit that it is a bit naive to not allocate responsibility across the generations, including boomers and the current ones as well as *all* prior ones.

JFK said it well too:
"And so, my fellow Americans: ask not what your country can do for you — ask what you can do for your country.

My fellow citizens of the world: ask not what America will do for you, but what together we can do for the freedom of man."
-- John F. Kennedy, 1960 Inauguration speech

(In my opinion, that line after his much more famous line is one that deserves much more awareness)

[jk]

Re: who will pay for the Boomers' retirement -- and are they entitled?

i just don't relate to this "generation"-based analysis. "why did such and such a generation elect so-and-so?" i think it's more fruitful to look at social and economic structures, money flows in politics, money flows outside of politics. we live in an evolving system and the changes that are happening are not dissimilar to changes in earlier historical periods, going back thousands of years to rome, then in more recent centuries with dominant commercial empires centered in venice, spain, holland, england.... who were "the boomers" responsible for the decline of the english empire? just to ask the question shows its foolishness.

[Jim Nickerson]

Re: who will pay for the Boomers' retirement -- and are they entitled?

Yes, I have Bart. I have a chance at the hospital where I work to talk to numerous boomers and those of the greatest generation. Though boomers might acknowledge the problems in this country, few, if any accept any form of responsibility for the conditions left their grandchildren, or children. I was lucky as my father grew up in an extended family, not a nuclear family. I spent my youth listening to people who grew up in 1890's, pre WW1, as my grandmother was the 2nd youngest of 13. Here father, fresh off the boat from Scotland, in 1860.This gave me a unique perspective, living with people who were out west, before all the states had statehood. Free land, not more than a generation removed from the gold rush, and Indian wars

I am not going to sit here and blame any group of people who were born into america between a certain time frame; that would be naive and immature. I can look though, at my level of education( first generation college grad ),and my standard of living compared to my parents, and see a signifigant drop off.

I do what I can, been voting Libertarian for awhile, making my yearly donation. Learning, talking to people about silver as real money, and trying to educate myself to protect what little wealth I have.

The boomers did a real piss poor job of electing people who would protect workers rights, and people who had any vision. Political correctness grew under the boomer watch, as did huge multinationals that squash any workers rights. Any chance of weaning ourselves from the saudi oil titty, after the 1970's energy crunch ???? Nope, same ole story decade after decade.

Now excuse me. I have to go wretch, while these giddy morons mentally masturbate over the DJI :cool:

Spunky,

As I recall, these remarks of yours today constitute your best post.

I was born in 1941, my dad being too old for WWII and too young for WWI. I don't know what I am regarding generation labels, certainly not of the so-called Greatest Generation which I think was Tom Hanks' designation for those who fought WWII and those who stayed at home and supported and supplied them, and I am not of the Baby Boom generation. Perhaps I am a part of the anonymous generation.

On one hand you wrote you would not blame any generation, but then you blamed the Boomers when it came to electing officials. That's okay. Actually I don't think anyone can blame any generational group. I guess at any election individuals from 18-21 all the way to 100 covers 4 or 5 generations. Being no demographer, I assume the Boomers even if they all voted one way, never outnumbered all the other voters.

Whatever you individually see wrong with the system and the way things have evolved doesn't, unfourtunately, make a bit of difference in that we only have two parties in this country, in effect, to serve what are myriad differences of opinions about most all things. There is littke doubt but that either major party will do whatever seems to be in the party's and elected officials' of the party-in-power best interests, and to hell with the 49% or less percentage that lost the last election.

Personally, I don't blame voters for the morass in which we are today, but rather the political system which ultimately gets down to the individuals who get elected. It is the individuals in office that do just two things: look after their own interests and whatever it takes to try to get re-elected. Unfortunately looking after those two things does NOT (EDIT) come close to equating to looking after the country's citizen in total.

I could go on and on, but it would help nothing. What it will take to change things in the US is something that absolutely forces a change on the system: calamitous destruction of most of the country either physically or financially or overthrow of the government which would be the first step in something that would evolve hopefully into better government.

If one thinks about it, throwing up is probably about all one can do.

[bart]

Re: who will pay for the Boomers' retirement -- and are they entitled?

What it will take to change things in the US is something that absolutely forces a change on the system: calamitous destruction of most of the country either physically or financially or overthrow of the government which would be the first step in something that would evolve hopefully into better government.

If one thinks about it, throwing up is probably about all one can do.

Yes - agreed - and this also can apply.

[Finster]

Re: who will pay for the Boomers' retirement -- and are they entitled?

i just don't relate to this "generation"-based analysis. "why did such and such a generation elect so-and-so?" i think it's more fruitful to look at social and economic structures, money flows in politics, money flows outside of politics. we live in an evolving system and the changes that are happening are not dissimilar to changes in earlier historical periods, going back thousands of years to rome, then in more recent centuries with dominant commercial empires centered in venice, spain, holland, england.... who were "the boomers" responsible for the decline of the english empire? just to ask the question shows its foolishness.

Me neither, JK. It's an incredibly shallow analysis. The notion that a certain aribitrarily delineated generation was somehow infested with some kind of congenital economic evil bug is just plain silly.

The boomer phenomenon is vastly over-rated, probably with a hidden agenda. Inflation comes from printing money. Blaming demographics is a common government excuse for its own malfeasance.

Take Social Security for example. People are living far longer these days than they did when the benefit eligibility age was set at 65. Congress adjusted it upwards a measly two years in the 1980s. It was like putting a Band-Aid on a severed arm.

So we hear a lot of talk about a demographic crisis supposedly threatening the solvency of Social Security. But think about it. Is people living longer really a problem? Or is the real problem that politicians put in place a rigid, inflexible system that failed to adjust to reality?

So be skeptical - very skeptical - any time you hear blame for one problem or another being placed on demographics. Politicians love to talk about problems in such terms because it imparts an air of unavoidable natural disaster to them, diverting attention from the real cause. Nothing will get solved that way, so we need to tune out the political propaganda and think clearly for ourselves.

[Pervilis Spurius]

Re: who will pay for the Boomers' retirement -- and are they entitled?

Incidentally, Jim, I think your pidgeon hole is duly labeled the Silent Generation. Or so says the early 90's book 'Generations'.

I agree with other sentiments here that the generational finger pointing is a stretch, although I do get annoyed with my Boomer parent's chest puffing cultural superiority......'Our music, icons, blah blah blah is sooooooooo much better than your generation's music, icons, blah blah blah.' WHATEVER!

I agree with Bart about the 1913 issue and the military/industrial/global corporations and, if I may put words in his mouth, agree that it is primarily these two phenomena that do more to destroy human liberty today.

I fight, I resist, and occasionally..........throw up.

[Finster]

Re: who will pay for the Boomers' retirement -- and are they entitled?

Incidentally, Jim, I think your pidgeon hole is duly labeled the Silent Generation. Or so says the early 90's book 'Generations'.

I agree with other sentiments here that the generational finger pointing is a stretch, although I do get annoyed with my Boomer parent's chest puffing cultural superiority......'Our music, icons, blah blah blah is sooooooooo much better than your generation's music, icons, blah blah blah.' WHATEVER!........throw up.

Nothing unique to so-called boomers, though. Every generation has a "generation gap".

[Dan Amerman]

Re: who will pay for the Boomers' retirement -- and are they entitled?

Simple, the 1645% is not real worth as it's not adjusted for inflation.
Inflation with be the great equalizer.
Big omission for "a Chartered Financial Analyst with MBA and BSBA degrees in finance, and almost 25 years of professional experience."

For the record, I made at least 11 references in the article to things like the differences between the real and the nominal. For people who weren't comfortable with that kind of terminology, I made three explicit references to pulling inflation out when calculating real per capita economic growth.

As grape jelly saw, I didn't "omit" inflation, removing it quite explicity was one of the key aspects of the article. Indeed, ultimately all monetary projections for returns above the real growth in resources is by definition inflation, even if we assign other titles to it such as price changes, earnings and dividends. Because it means money is increasing faster than real goods and services.

For future reference, since explicitly saying something over and over again doesn't work for you, but becomes a form of omitting -- how does one communicate with a financial mind of your caliber? ;)

[Dan Amerman]

Re: who will pay for the Boomers' retirement -- and are they entitled?

Yes, the purchasing power of those future dollars will be a fraction of what it is today and that is exactly the point:

That the Boomers are deluding themselves expecting compound interest and "the market" to work in their favor and result in a bountiful retirement.

People don't realize that those currently working and productive are the ones who pay for those who "saved for retirement."

Thanks for your kind words when providing the link, and I'm glad to see that you do get the point of the article!

[grapejelly]

Re: who will pay for the Boomers' retirement -- and are they entitled?

Thanks for your kind words when providing the link, and I'm glad to see that you do get the point of the article!

Thank you, Dan Amerman. I have enjoyed your material very much and have found it thought provoking.

My take on your writing is to buy a house or other real estate using a fixed rate loan, and then pay it off with depreciating dollars.

Take the money you would have otherwise "saved" and put it into gold.

I haven't gotten back into the real estate market yet. I have done the other part though. Rents are so advantageous for now that it is like stealing money from the landlords, at least in my area, costing me 50% or less of the total cost of ownership.

But I can see how it would help to get back into the market. I may wait a year or so before I buy another house, but I can see the advantages of it.

My take on your point in the 1970s, when everyone who had a house thought they were getting rich when in reality house prices barely kept up with inflation -- it was paying back the loan in cheaper dollars that gained homeowners wealth.

Of course, today there are other issues at play. The deterioration of the "producers and consumers" economy in the US and the Boomers problem means that property taxes are rising rapidly and are in many cases higher than the monthly loan payments for long-time homeowners.

Ty Andros made the poin THE "SOMETHING FOR NOTHING ARMY", ON THE MARCH!:

Taxes are now set to increase as the broad middle class no longer pays taxes and are willing to gore anybody who they believe can restore their lost former prosperity. Only the people that destroyed their prosperity are the very same people “populous politicians” who are leading the attacks on the most productive parts of their economies. And the people under attack are the very same ones who are their only hope for creating a more prosperous future. It is George Orwell’s book 1984 brought to life! When I first read this book I couldn’t imagine this in the United States, now presto change-o, here we are.


The Congressional budget office in a recent report outlined that the top 40%, those who make more than $43,200 dollars pay 99% of all taxes. The top 10%, those who make more than $87,300 pay 70.8% of all income taxes, an increase from their share of 48.1% in 1979. Politicians everywhere slowly but surely define the term rich lower and lower as they destroy them systematically and move them lower on the income ladder. It is no wonder that two incomes have now been made to replace one.

I think he means "income taxes" rather than generic "taxes", but the point is one that deserves its own thread. The fact that people with any money are being more and more soaked. Homeowners are perfect for getting soaked as they can't do much about it.

Just another thought in the mix...