unprecedented opportunities for profit

[jk]

[World Traveler]

Re: unprecedented opportunities for profit

Good one. Catches the value system of America's oligarchs and Wall Street in a funny way that the average citizen can appreciate.

[marvenger]

Re: unprecedented opportunities for profit

Keynes tried pretty darn hard to get capitalism to take a longer term view and failed. many others, keen, hudson and on and on, doing their best....getting no where. It's reaaly up to the people to organise to demand some kind of stability and sharing in the benefits.

[rjwjr]

Re: unprecedented opportunities for profit

Keynes tried pretty darn hard to get capitalism to take a longer term view and failed. many others, keen, hudson and on and on, doing their best....getting no where. It's reaaly up to the people to organise to demand some kind of stability and sharing in the benefits.

I wholeheartedly agree with the merits and benefits of a longer term view. I disagree, however, that it's up to "the people" to organize. Instead, I believe it's up to business owners and boards of directors, especially in pulicly traded companies, to do a better job of managing for the long term. Too many boards seem as shortsighted and incompetent as our current crop of politicians. How do these people get into these positions of power? On the other hand, there are a number of smaller and privately owned businesses that are well managed and will weather the economic storm.

The banks that failed and that receive the bailouts are the ones that receive all of the headlines, but there are many more regional and local banks that are well managed and doing just fine. You should research Beal Bank out of Texas for an interesting and shining example of a terrific success story and good ownership decision making.

As for your comment about "sharing in the benefits", the problem I always have with this "sharing in the benefits" mentality is that it typically means someone else is doing the real work, the wealth creating, the heavy lifting. That's not the American spirit and it is not the mentality that makes capitalism function at its peak performance. The US is considered the "land of opportunity", but there are capitalist societies everywhere around the globe. If one wishes to "share in the benefits" then one should start a business, improve their worth (via education, experience, performance, etc), become a smart investor or some such. One should not consider "share in the benefits" to mean taxing the more successful so as to provide "benefits" to the less successful (less educated, less willing to work, less able to run a business, less motivated, less ambitious), and in my opinion, less deserving masses. Capitalism does not guarantee equality of outcome. Capitalism should guarantee equality of opportunity. The rest should be up to the individual.

[zoog]

Re: unprecedented opportunities for profit

Good one. Catches the value system of America's oligarchs and Wall Street in a funny way that the average citizen can appreciate.

Not sure if that cartoon is a Wall Street meeting or an iTulip thread.;) Many of us seem determined to take advantage of the chaos to make some money.

[bcassill]

Re: unprecedented opportunities for profit

I wholeheartedly agree with the merits and benefits of a longer term view. I disagree, however, that it's up to "the people" to organize. Instead, I believe it's up to business owners and boards of directors, especially in pulicly traded companies, to do a better job of managing for the long term. Too many boards seem as shortsighted and incompetent as our current crop of politicians. How do these people get into these positions of power? On the other hand, there are a number of smaller and privately owned businesses that are well managed and will weather the economic storm.

The banks that failed and that receive the bailouts are the ones that receive all of the headlines, but there are many more regional and local banks that are well managed and doing just fine. You should research Beal Bank out of Texas for an interesting and shining example of a terrific success story and good ownership decision making.

As for your comment about "sharing in the benefits", the problem I always have with this "sharing in the benefits" mentality is that it typically means someone else is doing the real work, the wealth creating, the heavy lifting. That's not the American spirit and it is not the mentality that makes capitalism function at its peak performance. The US is considered the "land of opportunity", but there are capitalist societies everywhere around the globe. If one wishes to "share in the benefits" then one should start a business, improve their worth (via education, experience, performance, etc), become a smart investor or some such. One should not consider "share in the benefits" to mean taxing the more successful so as to provide "benefits" to the less successful (less educated, less willing to work, less able to run a business, less motivated, less ambitious), and in my opinion, less deserving masses. Capitalism does not guarantee equality of outcome. Capitalism should guarantee equality of opportunity. The rest should be up to the individual.

Exactly, those with the motivation, skills, and ability (and a little luck) should be able to enjoy the fruits of their labor. As you say this is what Capitalism is all about. (Although I do say we need to look after those who are too old or too young to look after themselves). The problem is that we do not have a normal functioning Capitalist system. We currently have one where a small cabal of special interests controls the capital and has the special access to politicians to limit competition/drive out competitors. It is a similar story no matter the industry we are looking at whether it be healthcare, pharma, financial services, energy, etc. A good example of this is the proposed cap and trade rules on CO2 emissions and the creation of a carbon credits market. Who stands to benefit? Goldman Sachs and other hedge funds who will have another trillion dollar market to go and speculate in. This is how revenue streams get legislated/regulated into existence and get passed on as a "tax" to everyone else through higher costs in goods and services. It's welfare in every sense of the word, but just not for the so called "lazy poor" who supposedly don't get off their hind ends and get a job.

Another itulip thread has a good discussion on this very issue:

http://www.itulip.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11644

As for our "responsible boards of directors," who do you believe make up these boards at most large corporations? Why other CEO's and business leaders, of course. If you go through the names of board members at a typical large company, it reads like a who's who list from the local country club. To your point, too many boards in recent years have abdicated their responsibility to shareholders in favor of maintaining the status quo. This can happen because the board may be stacked with the cronies of the CEO/Chairman (and don't say this can't happen because it was this way at both Bank of America and Disney under Micheal Eisner) or because they are simply out to lunch and don't want to upset their "friends" who might have a vote in their next pay raise at the company they manage. Just sayin.

Not to say that these folks are stupid or incapable. Most of them are quite talented. However, never underestimate the allure of wealth and power and how it can lead to a willingness to bend or break the rules in the pursuit of both. People may not be born crooked, but they can sure become that way with the right incentives.

[jk]

Re: unprecedented opportunities for profit

Not sure if that cartoon is a Wall Street meeting or an iTulip thread.;) Many of us seem determined to take advantage of the chaos to make some money.

i thought it captured some of the ethos around here.;) mine, anyway.:eek:

[marvenger]

Re: unprecedented opportunities for profit

It helps me understand when I look at a place like Bolivia. The people eventually got the shits with big multinationals privatising their gas and water resources, and their trickle down propaganda and told them to get fucked, many died. What I mean by share in the benefits is having more equal access to resources, natural and social, the people have to demand these things because the powerful sure as hell aren't going to give it to them.

[Raz]

Re: unprecedented opportunities for profit

Exactly, those with the motivation, skills, and ability (and a little luck) should be able to enjoy the fruits of their labor. As you say this is what Capitalism is all about. (Although I do say we need to look after those who are too old or too young to look after themselves). The problem is that we do not have a normal functioning Capitalist system. We currently have one where a small cabal of special interests controls the capital and has the special access to politicians to limit competition/drive out competitors. It is a similar story no matter the industry we are looking at whether it be healthcare, pharma, financial services, energy, etc. A good example of this is the proposed cap and trade rules on CO2 emissions and the creation of a carbon credits market. Who stands to benefit? Goldman Sachs and other hedge funds who will have another trillion dollar market to go and speculate in. This is how revenue streams get legislated/regulated into existence and get passed on as a "tax" to everyone else through higher costs in goods and services. It's welfare in every sense of the word, but just not for the so called "lazy poor" who supposedly don't get off their hind ends and get a job.

I agree with everything you said.

People may not be born crooked, but they can sure become that way with the right incentives.

People are born with a nature easily given to corruption. The first time a kid shoplifts it bothers him. The second time it still bothers him. The third and fourth times it might well still bother him, but his main focus is keeping cool and not getting caught.
By the tenth time it really doesn't bother him at all.

The way many absolve themselves is by suggesting that "everybody does it". Well, no, everybody doesn't do it.
To me that was the most disgusting thing about the Clintons: they sought to "normalize and sanitize" lying, thuggish behavior.
Since then it has only gotten worse - and it's bipartisan!

We are in deep trouble.

[santafe2]

Re: unprecedented opportunities for profit

As they say, the end will only come once. But the pre-end has come, and will continue to come, over and over and over again. As the leaders of the faithful manufacture believable pre-end scenarios, business people will make their talents available to create businesses that satisfy the believers needs. Occasionally, we make a few bucks in the bargain. It's even better if we believe the pre-end scenario.

Making a profit during the pre-end is so much better than spending money preparing for the actual end because all pre-ends are profitable but, as I said, the end is, well, the end.

[cjppjc]

Re: unprecedented opportunities for profit

Not sure if that cartoon is a Wall Street meeting or an iTulip thread.;) Many of us seem determined to take advantage of the chaos to make some money.

Yes, I had raised this issue a while ago. How does it feel to profit while others are suffering. Stated as a question, What have you observed about yourself when on this site?

[iyamwutiam]

Re: unprecedented opportunities for profit

Surely you must know a doctor -- ask him

[Mn_Mark]

Re: unprecedented opportunities for profit

How does it feel to profit while others are suffering.

I'm not going to feel guilty about using my mind and discipline and work to make a good life for myself and my family. I steal nothing from others; I always offer value for value. I help out people as I can and as I judge that they are worthy of help.

The mentality that says we should feel guilty when we do well because others aren't doing well has it exactly backwards. Instead you should be asking the ones who are suffering, "how do you think you got yourself into this position? What lessons have you learned from this? Have you developed your talents and found ways to provide value to other people? How can you do better next time?"

The people who succeed provide an example of what works for others. In addition they take care of themselves and are one less charity case that needs help. Instead, they are the ones who have the resources to help, while the failures have squandered their resources, time, and skills.

As a society we have got to get away from this socialist suspicion of success, as though to be successful is to somehow have cheated someone else. It betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of how wealth is brought into existence. Wealth is not a big pie that needs to be fairly divided. It is continuously brought into existence by creative people and continually consumed by all.

That's not to say there aren't Goldman Sachs types out there taking advantage. But what enables them to take advantage is a huge government that they can "capture" and then use to their profit, protecting themselves from competition and doing things like creating the Federal Reserve to enable them and their cronies to pick our pockets with bailouts and TARPS and what-all. We do not need more and bigger government to solve this. We need radically smaller government that has radically less power to tax and control the economy, this denying the Goldman Sachs types their primary tool for fleecing us.

[touchring]

Re: unprecedented opportunities for profit

Yes, I had raised this issue a while ago. How does it feel to profit while others are suffering. Stated as a question, What have you observed about yourself when on this site?

If you know if it's going to end terribly, you will profit as much as you can before it all ends.

Why would you think they are profiteering at the misery of others? because they know its going to end terribly and everyone is ripping off what's left and then flee the country before the collapse.

China babies die 'from fake milk'
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/3641475.stm

More than 2,000 children suffer in new China lead poisoning scandal
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle6803031.ece

2nd lead poisoning case hits China, 1,300 sick
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/...Ik6GQD9A71LF00

[Raz]

Re: unprecedented opportunities for profit

I'm not going to feel guilty about using my mind and discipline and work to make a good life for myself and my family. I steal nothing from others; I always offer value for value. I help out people as I can and as I judge that they are worthy of help.

The mentality that says we should feel guilty when we do well because others aren't doing well has it exactly backwards. Instead you should be asking the ones who are suffering, "how do you think you got yourself into this position? What lessons have you learned from this? Have you developed your talents and found ways to provide value to other people? How can you do better next time?"

The people who succeed provide an example of what works for others. In addition they take care of themselves and are one less charity case that needs help. Instead, they are the ones who have the resources to help, while the failures have squandered their resources, time, and skills.

As a society we have got to get away from this socialist suspicion of success, as though to be successful is to somehow have cheated someone else. It betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of how wealth is brought into existence. Wealth is not a big pie that needs to be fairly divided. It is continuously brought into existence by creative people and continually consumed by all.

That's not to say there aren't Goldman Sachs types out there taking advantage. But what enables them to take advantage is a huge government that they can "capture" and then use to their profit, protecting themselves from competition and doing things like creating the Federal Reserve to enable them and their cronies to pick our pockets with bailouts and TARPS and what-all. We do not need more and bigger government to solve this. We need radically smaller government that has radically less power to tax and control the economy, this denying the Goldman Sachs types their primary tool for fleecing us.

Preach on, brother. Amen.