unprecedented opportunities for profit

[ViC78]

Re: unprecedented opportunities for profit

We need radically smaller government that has radically less power to tax and control the economy, this denying the Goldman Sachs types their primary tool for fleecing us.

I am curious as to what you mean when you say "smaller" government. You have mentioned lower taxes. What would you to prefer to cut in terms of government services in lieu of lower taxes ? (Obvious candidates from your point of view, if I have read you correctly, are social security/medicare/medicaid, unemployment insurance etc.) . However, these social safety nets/ automatic stabilizers are what seemed to have worked for countries like Germany which apparently are not facing the dire consequences that we are (not yet). I am afraid that if we do not afford basic standard of living to our citizens, we are more likely to become an India or a Brazil.

Also, smaller government means less regulation, correct? By that yardstick, we have an extremely small government since the 80's.

[cjppjc]

Re: unprecedented opportunities for profit

If you know if it's going to end terribly, you will profit as much as you can before it all ends.

Why would you think they are profiteering at the misery of others? because they know its going to end terribly and everyone is ripping off what's left and then flee the country before the collapse.

I wrote how does it feel to profit while others are suffering? A little different perhaps than the way you paraphrased.

[ASH]

Re: unprecedented opportunities for profit

I'm not going to feel guilty about using my mind and discipline and work to make a good life for myself and my family. I steal nothing from others; I always offer value for value. I help out people as I can and as I judge that they are worthy of help.

I hope cjppjc will correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought I detected a different emphasis in his post. Put simply, I buy into iTulip's view that the economy is fundamentally broken and on the road to ruin; I have configured my investments as best I can to survive that eventuality. Now, being human and having taken a position, I hope that position does well. However, in order for my investments to do well, things have to get bad. My expectation is that things will get bad regardless of what I do, so I'm not directly profiting off someone else's misery. However, it certainly is true that the circumstances in which my investments will perform the best are pretty dire for most everyone. That is why we iTulip types ought to feel a bit conflicted.

[walenk]

Re: unprecedented opportunities for profit

Since all us pre-enders are joyful (modest, discreet, no bling here) opportunists, and support the capitalist way, shouldn't we enjoin JK to cite a link? JK, you haven't gone from shrinking to cartooning have you? ;)

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: unprecedented opportunities for profit

Since all us pre-enders are joyful (modest, discreet, no bling here) opportunists, and support the capitalist way, shouldn't we enjoin JK to cite a link? JK, you haven't gone from shrinking to cartooning have you? ;)

That's a Robert Mankoff cartoon, published in The New Yorker in September of 2002.

See further http://www.cartoonbank.com/product_d....asp?sid=52630.

[jk]

Re: unprecedented opportunities for profit

That's a Robert Mankoff cartoon, published in The New Yorker in September of 2002.

See further http://www.cartoonbank.com/product_d....asp?sid=52630.

it was scanned onto my hard drive within a day of my receiving the magazine.

[walenk]

Re: unprecedented opportunities for profit

it was scanned onto my hard drive within a day of my receiving the magazine.

2002!?! Better and better. I thought surely it was contemporary, which is pretty conclusive evidence that I'm a doomer. ;)

[bpr]

Re: unprecedented opportunities for profit

I am curious as to what you mean when you say "smaller" government. You have mentioned lower taxes. What would you to prefer to cut in terms of government services in lieu of lower taxes ? (Obvious candidates from your point of view, if I have read you correctly, are social security/medicare/medicaid, unemployment insurance etc.) . However, these social safety nets/ automatic stabilizers are what seemed to have worked for countries like Germany which apparently are not facing the dire consequences that we are (not yet). I am afraid that if we do not afford basic standard of living to our citizens, we are more likely to become an India or a Brazil.

Also, smaller government means less regulation, correct? By that yardstick, we have an extremely small government since the 80's.

I, too, wonder what smaller government would look like.

How much easier would it be to "capture"? In the good old days, before these bloated government programs came about we had monopolies, child labor and an unencumbered free market called the slave trade.

I am afraid that if we do not afford basic standard of living to our citizens, we are more likely to become an America, circa 1860.

[cjppjc]

Re: unprecedented opportunities for profit

I hope cjppjc will correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought I detected a different emphasis in his post. Put simply, I buy into iTulip's view that the economy is fundamentally broken and on the road to ruin; I have configured my investments as best I can to survive that eventuality. Now, being human and having taken a position, I hope that position does well. However, in order for my investments to do well, things have to get bad. My expectation is that things will get bad regardless of what I do, so I'm not directly profiting off someone else's misery. However, it certainly is true that the circumstances in which my investments will perform the best are pretty dire for most everyone. That is why we iTulip types ought to feel a bit conflicted.

Yes conflicted. Sometimes I notice that here there is a small amount of rooting for the car crash. Now I certainly do not want to sound holier than thou. I like you Ash have made my bed and will root for my self interest. I never ment anyone here was profiting directly from anothers misery. There is at least for me that feeling of conflict you mention and when Zoog wrote "not sure if that cartoon is a Wall Street meeting or an iTulip thread. Many of us seem determined to take advantage of the chaos to make some money", it made the thought of rooting for the car crash seem more real.

[rjwjr]

Re: unprecedented opportunities for profit

Yes conflicted. Sometimes I notice that here there is a small amount of rooting for the car crash. Now I certainly do not want to sound holier than thou. I like you Ash have made my bed and will root for my self interest. I never ment anyone here was profiting directly from anothers misery. There is at least for me that feeling of conflict you mention and when Zoog wrote "not sure if that cartoon is a Wall Street meeting or an iTulip thread. Many of us seem determined to take advantage of the chaos to make some money", it made the thought of rooting for the car crash seem more real.

You and Ash are being too hard on yourselves in my opinion. Think of it from this perspective...your current investment stance (prepared for misery) could prove to be wrong. If it is wrong, are you going to blame others and beg for a bailout? Of course not. You are making an educated guess about something that you hope to be in your best interest. Worrying about someone else's misery in this case is, as I said, being way too hard on yourself, misguided even. You are to be respected for your actions to keep yourself off the public handouts. Your actions (whether proven right or wrong) are so much better than the inactions of the masses, who may endure some major misery as a result of their inaction...not as a result of your actions.

[cjppjc]

Re: unprecedented opportunities for profit

You and Ash are being too hard on yourselves in my opinion. Think of it from this perspective...your current investment stance (prepared for misery) could prove to be wrong. If it is wrong, are you going to blame others and beg for a bailout? Of course not. You are making an educated guess about something that you hope to be in your best interest. Worrying about someone else's misery in this case is, as I said, being way too hard on yourself, misguided even. You are to be respected for your actions to keep yourself off the public handouts. Your actions (whether proven right or wrong) are so much better than the inactions of the masses, who may endure some major misery as a result of their inaction...not as a result of your actions.

I cannot speak for Ash, but for myself I do worry about others. Not guilt for my actions. And as I wrote before, conflict about the rooting interest I have.

[ASH]

Re: unprecedented opportunities for profit

You and Ash are being too hard on yourselves in my opinion...

Thanks, rjwjr... there's a pretty big firewall between my sense of morality and my sense of empathy. Concern for those likely to lose out in these circumstances has more to do with empathy than a moral self-judgment. I guess I'm saying I can feel conflicted over negative emotions other than guilt.

However, I actually feel conflicted on my own account as well. Being "right" in this case will merely make me better off in a relative sense. Unfortunately, I'm likely to end up worse off in an absolute sense. My bet, after all, amounts to a wager that much of the apparent prosperity of American society is a credit-fueled illusion which is likely to be dispelled over the next decade. Unlike jtabeb, I don't think my investments are going to make me wealthy. I just think they are going to make me somewhat better off in a society that is poorer, overall. So when the stock market falls or the price of gold rises, I feel a little jolt of pleasure because my net worth measured in dollars has risen. But if a few years from now I have fewer places to spend my money, the mass-market petty luxuries of which I'm fond are no longer to be had (or are of inferior quality), and the cultural diversions which I enjoy wither because public funds are tight, I don't think I'll feel better off.