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  • How to deal with the economically redundant? Tax the rich

    I've felt this was inevitable for a long time. You only oppose socialism until your skills become economically redundant. Some day, in about 30 years, that will be everyone.



    Tax and Spend, or Face The Consequences



    By Gregory Clark
    Sunday, August 9, 2009

    At some point, the Great Recession will end. Newsweek even says it's already over. Whenever it happens, we will see that the downturn was but a minor blip in the long story of the economy.

    In the next chapter, abundance beckons -- for some. Advances in technology drive economic growth, and there is no sign that they are slackening. The American economy is likely to continue unabated on the upward path that began with the Industrial Revolution.

    No, the economic problems of the future will not be about growth but about something more nettlesome: the ineluctable increase in the number of people with no marketable skills, and technology's role not as the antidote to social conflict, but as its instigator.

    The battle will be over how to get the economy's winners to pay for an increasingly costly poor. Last weekend Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner and Lawrence Summers, the director of the White House's National Economic Council, refused to rule out raising taxes. Despite the White House's subsequent denials, this may be an early acknowledgment of an inexorable trend. In a future with higher taxes, the divide between rich and poor would be the central economic challenge.

    For much of the past 200 years, unskilled workers benefited greatly from capitalism. Before the Industrial Revolution, for example, skilled construction workers earned 50 to 100 percent more than unskilled laborers; today, that premium has fallen to 33 percent in the United States. The era of the two world wars, 1914 to 1945, was one of particularly sharp gains for the wages of unskilled workers, relative to the rest.

    Why have the unskilled fared so well? After all, machines -- whether steam engines, internal combustion engines or electric motors -- have replaced people as deliverers of brute force. But even today they cannot replace many of people's manipulative abilities, language skills and social awareness. The hamburger you eat at McDonald's is still put together and delivered to you by human hands; even a fast-food "associate" deploys an astonishing repertoire of spatial and language skills.

    But in more recent decades, when average U.S. incomes roughly doubled, there has been little gain in the real earnings of the unskilled. And, more darkly, computer advances suggest these redoubts of human skill will sooner or later fall to machines. We may have already reached the historical peak in the earning power of low-skilled workers, and may look back on the mid-20th century as the great era of the common man.

    I recently carried out a complicated phone transaction with United Airlines but never once spoke to a human; my mechanical interlocutor seemed no less capable than the Indian call-center operatives it replaced. Outsourcing to India and China may be only a brief historical interlude before the great outsourcing yet to come -- to machines. And as machines expand their domain, basic wages could easily fall so low that families cannot support themselves without public assistance.

    With the march of technology, the size of a future American underclass dependent on public support for part of its livelihood is hard to predict: 10 million, 20 million, 100 million? We could imagine cities where entire neighborhoods are populated by people on state support. In France, generous welfare has already produced huge suburban housing estates, les banlieues, populated with a substantially unemployed and immigrant population, parts of which have periodically burst into violent protest.

    So, how do we operate a society in which a large share of the population is socially needy but economically redundant? There is only one answer. You tax the winners -- those with the still uniquely human skills, and those owning the capital and land -- to provide for the losers.

    Modern society seems comfortable with the rich and poor living in vastly different housing, eating disparate qualities of food and facing radically dissimilar crime risks. No one pickets four-star restaurants because they feed only the rich, or the Waldorf Astoria because only the wealthy can afford to sleep there. But when it comes to medical care, Americans display strong ethical resistance to having the poor receive a substantially inferior product. (Just recall the outrage a few years ago when news reports emerged of Los Angeles hospitals discharging poor patients onto city sidewalks.)

    Rising health spending -- from 5 percent of U.S. annual income in 1960 to 16 percent today -- is no tragedy. Thanks to such spending, we can all live longer. But as medical advances allow us to live far beyond our working years, with the average American adult living to 78, the burden on the public purse will rise. Of the 47 million currently uninsured Americans, most will need public assistance to get adequate care.

    Adult-onset diabetes, for example, estimated to afflict more than 21 million Americans, is a chronic condition associated with a lifestyle occurring at high rates among lower-income people. Modern medicine allows the average person diagnosed with diabetes to live more than 15 additional years, but at a cost typically exceeding $100,000. (Twenty-one million times $100,000 is $2.1 trillion, and that's just one disease.)

    The United States was founded, essentially, on resistance to taxes, and to this day, an aversion to the grasping hand of the state seems fundamental to the American psyche. The share of total income collected in taxes by all levels of government in the United States is 27 percent, compared with 51 percent in Sweden, at the other extreme. The conflicts to come are foreshadowed in California, where popular anti-tax sentiment has forced substantial reductions in medical care for the state's poorest children.

    How can we avoid or minimize such conflicts? The Obama administration seeks to do so in part through a more cost-effective health-care system. With luck, the United States could reduce health-care expenditures closer to the 9 to 11 percent of annual income typical in Canada and Europe. But health-care spending as a share of income has been increasing everywhere, so this will at best buy time before an inevitable crunch.

    Others see education as a way out of this dystopia. The root problem is, after all, the widening of the income gap between the skilled and the unskilled. Can expanded education give the poorest the tools to resist the march of the machines? I'm skeptical. Already, much of the supposed improvement in high school and college graduation rates has come by asking less of graduates. We can certainly arrange to have everyone "graduate" from high school, but whether they will have the skills needed to make it is doubtful.

    The last great hope may be to design a more efficient tax system. Much of the present system takes from people with one hand then gives back with the other, after bureaucracy eats its share. Taxes for Social Security, Medicare and roads all show elements of such recycling. A more efficient system would tax only where there is a need for some specific public good or a transfer to the poor.

    Unfortunately, such measures are only stopgaps. In the end, we may be forced to learn to live in a United States where, by stealth, "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need" becomes the guiding principle of government -- or else confront growing, unattended poverty.
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...d=opinionsbox1

  • #2
    Re: How to deal with the economically redundant? Tax the rich

    Originally posted by Munger View Post
    I've felt this was inevitable for a long time. You only oppose socialism until your skills become economically redundant. Some day, in about 30 years, that will be everyone.
    Even if it's not machines, but rather foreign workers -- and even if the process doesn't go to completion -- this is still a huge social problem. The country is already filled with millions of citizens whose labor, from a strictly economic standpoint, is not worth a first world, middle class life style. That is only likely to get worse over time. We've tried closing that gap with credit for the past few decades (both personal and public), but that is just leading to national bankruptcy. I fear that this is setting up a contest between what is just (from my standpoint, at least) and what is practical. I believe that from the standpoint of justice, we should be working toward the type of society that rjwjr advocates (equality of opportunity, and an outcome that reflects the distribution of economic ability within the law). Hell -- philosophically, I'm not a flat-taxer; I'm a head-taxer. But the way I wish the world works is not the way I think the world actually works, and I fear that from the standpoint of practicality, redistribution is increasingly necessary to preserve social stability. If anyone has a reason why this is not so, I'd love to hear it, because I would prefer to go back to believing that ever-expanding socialism isn't inevitable (or, at any rate, the only alternative that preserves a semblance of the American civil society that I grew up in).

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: How to deal with the economically redundant? Tax the rich

      Originally posted by Munger View Post
      You only oppose socialism until your skills become economically redundant.
      Are you freaking kidding me?! Is that really your stance?! Is that really how you believe most people think?! That is one of the most depressing and anger-inducing mindsets I have ever heard. I feel sorry for you if you believe this. In effect, you are saying that your fall back plan is to rely on other people to take care of your needs and wants. Have you no pride? Have you no sense of personal responsibility? Have you no shame? Have you no manhood? What do you think gives you the right to have other people take care of you?

      If my skills became economically redundant, I would develop new skills, or I would drastically reduce my lifestyle, or I would become more self-sufficient in an effort to live off the land to a larger extent, or I'd form a commune with other like-minded people, or any number of other actions and efforts. The last thing I'd do is embrace a failed, unfair, unjust, freedom-robbing ideal like socialism. I'd hope that I would just kill myself before I took the stance that my skills are no longer needed so it's now up to other people to take care of me.

      Your way of thinking is a cancer upon productive society. Get up off your ass and start preparing for the future.
      "...the western financial system has already failed. The failure has just not yet been realized, while the system remains confident that it is still alive." Jesse

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: How to deal with the economically redundant? Tax the rich

        Originally posted by rjwjr View Post
        Are you freaking kidding me?! Is that really your stance?! Is that really how you believe most people think?! That is one of the most depressing and anger-inducing mindsets I have ever heard. I feel sorry for you if you believe this. In effect, you are saying that your fall back plan is to rely on other people to take care of your needs and wants. Have you no pride? Have you no sense of personal responsibility? Have you no shame? Have you no manhood? What do you think gives you the right to have other people take care of you?

        If my skills became economically redundant, I would develop new skills, or I would drastically reduce my lifestyle, or I would become more self-sufficient in an effort to live off the land to a larger extent, or I'd form a commune with other like-minded people, or any number of other actions and efforts. The last thing I'd do is embrace a failed, unfair, unjust, freedom-robbing ideal like socialism. I'd hope that I would just kill myself before I took the stance that my skills are no longer needed so it's now up to other people to take care of me.

        Your way of thinking is a cancer upon productive society. Get up off your ass and start preparing for the future.
        You may not realize this, but I am not economically redundant. I do not come from money, worked my way up, and am now taxed at the highest bracket. However, I've known enough different types of people in my life to understand that not everyone can do what I did. I have known many people who were barely born with the intellectual capacity to paint houses. They are good people, hard workers. The ******* truth is that they WILL be redundant if they aren't already. They are not going to learn C++, how to perform surgery, or how to write a summary judgment motion. If you don't realize this you are completely out of touch.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: How to deal with the economically redundant? Tax the rich

          Originally posted by ASH View Post
          Hell -- philosophically, I'm not a flat-taxer; I'm a head-taxer. But the way I wish the world works is not the way I think the world actually works, and I fear that from the standpoint of practicality, redistribution is increasingly necessary to preserve social stability. If anyone has a reason why this is not so, I'd love to hear it, because I would prefer to go back to believing that ever-expanding socialism isn't inevitable (or, at any rate, the only alternative that preserves a semblance of the American civil society that I grew up in).
          ASH, my online friend, you know I have an opinion as to why this is not so.

          The bottom line is that financial equality, and financial success for that matter, is not as important as freedom, fairness, justice, and the basic rights as detailed by our founding fathers. Socialism is the antithesis of our founding principles and Constitution relative to property rights and personal responsibility and limited government and the rule of law. The more we move toward socialism, the more we weaken the USA and the ideals that have made us great for over 200 years.

          The whole premise of the equalization of wealth is rooted in the misguided belief that money is the road to happiness. It's not. More often than not, as we've all experienced, the journey is rewarding, the achievment is rewarding, the "having" is empty and unfulfilling relative to the "getting there". Are we supposed to be jealous and resentful of Michael Jordan or Tiger Woods or Warren Buffet because they have so much more than we? Is our first instinct really to try to find us a way to take some of what they got? I sure hope not. It's theirs and they earned it fair and square.

          As for our current (financially) poor in the US, why should the thinking be any different? Why should they expect to take from you and me anymore than the people of Darfur or Ethiopia or the slums of Thailand should be able to take from them?

          Socialism, central planning, wealth distribution and these other utopias are impractical pipe dreams when viewed in a broader context. Eventually, like with Social Security, the inverted pyramid of producers to receivers will cause the entire system to fail. To date, there remains no better, no more fair system than that established by the founding fathers in our Declaration and Constitution. The further we stray from those principles, the weaker, less free, and less just we become as a society.
          "...the western financial system has already failed. The failure has just not yet been realized, while the system remains confident that it is still alive." Jesse

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: How to deal with the economically redundant? Tax the rich

            get a foreign bank account, a 2nd citizenship, and be happy.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: How to deal with the economically redundant? Tax the rich

              Originally posted by Munger View Post
              You may not realize this, but I am not economically redundant. I do not come from money, worked my way up, and am now taxed at the highest bracket. However, I've known enough different types of people in my life to understand that not everyone can do what I did. I have known many people who were barely born with the intellectual capacity to paint houses. They are good people, hard workers. The ******* truth is that they WILL be redundant if they aren't already. They are not going to learn C++, how to perform surgery, or how to write a summary judgment motion. If you don't realize this you are completely out of touch.
              Munger, I respect your success and personal effort. I respect that you are a personally responsible, productive member of society. I respect your freedom to use your wealth, knowledge, and experience to help these soon-to-be-economically-redundant individuals in way that you see fit...but I draw the line when you tell me that I also need to help them through higher taxes or other forms of wealth redistribution. In addition to you, someone else wants to save whales, and another group wants to protect spotted owls, and another group wants to save the environment, and another group wants to have taxpayer funded sex change operations for prisoners, and on and on ad infinitum. Sure, many of these are good and noble causes. It's not your sense of charity and empathy that I am against. It's the mindset that you get to tell me what to do with my money, my assets, or my time that I resent. I'm all for charity and neighbor helping neighbor on a volunteer basis at the church, community, and local level. I start to have a problem once it builds to the State or Federal level, however, and once it becomes a mandated taxpayer funded program. Then, when you make a comment that implies that someone whose skill is now economically redundant has no option but to embrace socialism and become a ward of the State and a parasite on the productive members of society, well, that's where the anger boils over. Good for you for worrying about the welfare of these people, but quit trying to dip into my pockets for your cause. I may just prefer to save the spotted owls.
              "...the western financial system has already failed. The failure has just not yet been realized, while the system remains confident that it is still alive." Jesse

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: How to deal with the economically redundant? Tax the rich

                Originally posted by rjwjr View Post
                ASH, my online friend, you know I have an opinion as to why this is not so.

                The bottom line is that financial equality, and financial success for that matter, is not as important as freedom, fairness, justice, and the basic rights as detailed by our founding fathers. Socialism is the antithesis of our founding principles and Constitution relative to property rights and personal responsibility and limited government and the rule of law. The more we move toward socialism, the more we weaken the USA and the ideals that have made us great for over 200 years.

                The whole premise of the equalization of wealth is rooted in the misguided belief that money is the road to happiness. It's not. More often than not, as we've all experienced, the journey is rewarding, the achievment is rewarding, the "having" is empty and unfulfilling relative to the "getting there". Are we supposed to be jealous and resentful of Michael Jordan or Tiger Woods or Warren Buffet because they have so much more than we? Is our first instinct really to try to find us a way to take some of what they got? I sure hope not. It's theirs and they earned it fair and square.

                As for our current (financially) poor in the US, why should the thinking be any different? Why should they expect to take from you and me anymore than the people of Darfur or Ethiopia or the slums of Thailand should be able to take from them?

                Socialism, central planning, wealth distribution and these other utopias are impractical pipe dreams when viewed in a broader context. Eventually, like with Social Security, the inverted pyramid of producers to receivers will cause the entire system to fail. To date, there remains no better, no more fair system than that established by the founding fathers in our Declaration and Constitution. The further we stray from those principles, the weaker, less free, and less just we become as a society.
                Two questions:

                (1) A dull kid is born into a world where half-witted robots handle all manual labor for free at the behest of the already wealthy/productive members of society. His parents have no property. The abundance of free infinite labor has created an abundance of all physical necessities and luxuries. Yet how is that kid going to earn a living to get that food into his mouth?

                (2) A brilliant kid is born into a world where Google 2044 zeta (TM) is smarter than all humans that ever lived combined. How is that kid going to earn a living?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: How to deal with the economically redundant? Tax the rich

                  Originally posted by rjwjr View Post
                  Munger, I respect your success and personal effort. I respect that you are a personally responsible, productive member of society. I respect your freedom to use your wealth, knowledge, and experience to help these soon-to-be-economically-redundant individuals in way that you see fit...but I draw the line when you tell me that I also need to help them through higher taxes or other forms of wealth redistribution. In addition to you, someone else wants to save whales, and another group wants to protect spotted owls, and another group wants to save the environment, and another group wants to have taxpayer funded sex change operations for prisoners, and on and on ad infinitum. Sure, many of these are good and noble causes. It's not your sense of charity and empathy that I am against. It's the mindset that you get to tell me what to do with my money, my assets, or my time that I resent. I'm all for charity and neighbor helping neighbor on a volunteer basis at the church, community, and local level. I start to have a problem once it builds to the State or Federal level, however, and once it becomes a mandated taxpayer funded program. Then, when you make a comment that implies that someone whose skill is now economically redundant has no option but to embrace socialism and become a ward of the State and a parasite on the productive members of society, well, that's where the anger boils over. Good for you for worrying about the welfare of these people, but quit trying to dip into my pockets for your cause. I may just prefer to save the spotted owls.
                  The economically successful are certainly under no absolute obligation to satiate the economically redundant. If they don't, however, they will find themselves becoming existentially redundant, like the certain members of France circa 1798 or certain members of Russia circa 1917.

                  What pure libertarians refuse to understand is that Roosevelt saved capitalism from itself. It was either redistribution or the way of Italy/Germany.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: How to deal with the economically redundant? Tax the rich

                    Originally posted by Munger View Post
                    Two questions:

                    (1) A dull kid is born into a world where half-witted robots handle all manual labor for free at the behest of the already wealthy/productive members of society. His parents have no property. The abundance of free infinite labor has created an abundance of all physical necessities and luxuries. Yet how is that kid going to earn a living to get that food into his mouth?

                    (2) A brilliant kid is born into a world where Google 2044 zeta (TM) is smarter than all humans that ever lived combined. How is that kid going to earn a living?
                    a) The robots wont be free they will have to be built. A whole new industry of low skilled labor will be born. But more importantly a whole new industry of high skilled labor will come into existance. The kid will work hard go to school and develop a skill. But if the government pays his rent, his car, his health insurance, his food etc. he does nothing productive he exists for no purpose and becomes a slave to his keeper as he has no ability to better himself. This is Socialism. This debate has been going on for thousands of years:

                    Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach him how to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.
                    Lao Tzu (570-490 BC).


                    b) The progress of society by then will have created untold opportunities. We would be exploring space we will be creating art we will have whole new industries providing opportunities for men and women to create value benefiting the society. Either that or we are all going to be slaves to the machine. That brilliant kid given the freedom of opportunity and use of the knowledge provided by the Google Zeta will come up with the next big thing.

                    The problem with redistribution is once you start down that path you create disincentive to work. People will naturally do nothing. They will take what the get for free and produce nothing for society. Once other people see this they do the same. You get more have nots and less haves.

                    America became great because of individual action and self responsibility socialism and government redistribution takes the incentive away from the marginal worker to be productive. Instead he stays in his free apartment, gets his free healthcare, eats his free food and becomes and idle hand. The government must then tax the marginal haves and the haves further providing disincentive to working. The marginal haves will become have nots and the haves will be taxed 99% to support all the have nots. It is a formula that cannot work. It never has and never will. I believe in charity and taken care of the people who do not have the ability to do so for themselves but the government must not redistribute for redistributions sake and must not take away the incentive to work harder and acheive more.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: How to deal with the economically redundant? Tax the rich

                      Originally posted by Munger
                      I've felt this was inevitable for a long time. You only oppose socialism until your skills become economically redundant.
                      LOL, you ever heard of revolutions? You only become economically redundant when someone else owns everything, including you. Jeez, when will they ever learn?! :rolleyes:

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: How to deal with the economically redundant? Tax the rich

                        Originally posted by Sapiens View Post
                        LOL, you ever heard of revolutions? You only become economically redundant when someone else owns everything, including you. Jeez, when will they ever learn?! :rolleyes:
                        Based upon Munger's other posts, it seems he has indeed heard of revolutions.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: How to deal with the economically redundant? Tax the rich

                          All this thinking lost its moral authority when Wall Street was bailed out last fall. You can whine all you want to but "the rich" bailed themselves out and became nothing more than the moral equivalence of wards of the state on the dole. When there is no correlation between position of wealth and the implied productive capacity to produce that wealth preventing that wealth from being taken away via force or taxation has no moral defense. Moral Hazard is serious stuff in when debating philosophical economics. It doesn't matter whether it comes from automation or corruption.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: How to deal with the economically redundant? Tax the rich

                            Originally posted by Munger View Post
                            The economically successful are certainly under no absolute obligation to satiate the economically redundant. If they don't, however, they will find themselves becoming existentially redundant, like the certain members of France circa 1798 or certain members of Russia circa 1917.

                            What pure libertarians refuse to understand is that Roosevelt saved capitalism from itself. It was either redistribution or the way of Italy/Germany.
                            This is unfortunate but true. Who said the world is fair? The Libertarian purists don't want to live in reality. I'm a Libertarian at heart, but I realize what you said above is true, the Paris mob did also. They aren't going to lay down like sheep, and that's the reality. So what are we going to do about it? Gas chambers? :eek: Any argument about the future of socialism in the US that doesn't address what to do with the displaced is a academic argument and a waste of time. Short of disenfranchising the poor, they simply cannot be ignored. I'm not saying I have the answer, only that this fantasy that we'll all live happily ever after with everyone fully employed in some high skill job ignores reality.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: How to deal with the economically redundant? Tax the rich

                              Originally posted by Munger View Post
                              I've felt this was inevitable for a long time. You only oppose socialism until your skills become economically redundant. Some day, in about 30 years, that will be everyone.

                              Munger,

                              What if computers/machines replace just about everyone? What if outsourcing does the rest? How do we create jobs?

                              Maybe we manufacture complexity? Do we create fields, worlds, and rules where computers and machines cannot either keep up or handle it to people's comfort? Do we create overly complex bureaucracy and financial rules? When we develop a system we do not understand and it fails, can we create even more complex ways to regulate it without simplifying it? Can we then tear down regulation that prevents it from getting more complex?

                              Have we been doing this for a while?

                              Comment

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