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  • #16
    Re: Banks Reopen Global Casino

    Originally posted by Jim Nickerson View Post
    The question is what is going to change how the system currently operates?
    I'm not saying this will work. But it's the only thing I could come up with.

    Step #1: Achieve financial security, absent a regular income, so that you have the time to devote to politics.

    Step #2: Wait for the country to exhaust its ability to support the standard of living of the lower 90% through expansion of public and private credit. When we are no longer able to borrow a reasonable level of material comfort for the great majority of the population, and the contrast with the upper 10% (or whatever) becomes too great, the present ruling class will be discredited, and there will finally be room for political change.

    Step #3: Do rhetorical battle with the extremist demogogues who also emerge, and win. Feed the populist anger some red meat to compete with the other demogogues, but avoid a violent expression of that anger, avoid public disorder, and avoid assaults on core institutions. (Think "ask not what your country can do for you..." rather than Mein Kampf.) If you aren't extreme enough, you'll be out-shouted by some other rabble-rowser; if you are too extreme, you'll alienate and frighten too many people. You need to give expression to the people's anger and validate their frustration without creating a conflagration that threatens the social order. Most importantly, you need to articulate a narrative for how things came to this, and what has to change to return them to "the way they should be."

    Step #4: When you (or, generally, your party) achieves political power through demagoguery, don't be a douche. You will have achieved power through manipulation of widespread public anger, and once in power, you will need to wield that power to reform dysfunctional institutions. The hardest part is that the necessary reforms are those which weaken the ability of the incumbent to cling to power. Therefore, you have to be careful about selection of your party leaders. There really are many millions of patriots who would put their country before their personal ambitition... or at least those whose ambition it is to be thought well of through service to their country. Still, it is hard to find motivated and capable leaders who aren't also narcissistic, so it's unrealistic to try to recruit a party of saints. Instead, you need the type of narcissist who wants a very specific type of acclaim -- that which attends benevolence. You want to build your party from people whose greatest desire is to be thought well of for their service to their fellows, and who seek a place in history through participation in a great event rather than merely the length of their tenure and the routine exercise of political power.

    Step #5: When reform has been accomplished, you need to manage the transition from being a demagogue to being the new political elite. You need to put the genie of public anger back in its bottle, and you need to be disciplined about keeping it there. It's important that you make your reforms difficult to reverse, because you won't be in power for long if you're honest. The hardest part will be letting go of the reigns, but let go you must, because otherwise you turn into the corruption which you sought to displace. I actually believe there are people who would do this; we need to find them and elect them.
    Last edited by ASH; August 11, 2009, 03:22 PM.

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    • #17
      Re: Banks Reopen Global Casino

      10 to 1, ASH is under 35 yoa. Any takers?

      Great post by the way!

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      • #18
        Re: Banks Reopen Global Casino

        Originally posted by vinoveri View Post
        10 to 1, ASH is under 35 yoa. Any takers?

        Great post by the way!
        Around here I like to play the role of doey-eyed optimist, uncritical reflexive conspiracy-doubter, and blarney-spewing dilettante!

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        • #19
          Re: Banks Reopen Global Casino

          Originally posted by ASH View Post
          Around here I like to play the role of doey-eyed optimist, uncritical reflexive conspiracy-doubter, and blarney-spewing dilettante!
          you'd better step up the performance then b/c you're role playing is not only unconvincing you are any of those, but evidence to the contrary.

          I do like your plan, but am stuck on step 1!;)

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          • #20
            Re: Banks Reopen Global Casino

            Interesting article. It mentions casinos and monopoly. Both have have basic rules.

            Rule 1 in a casino – ‘ The house never loses’. Rule 1 in Monopoly – ‘ The bank never runs out of money’. The Fed is like a Monopoly bank and banks are like casinos – one feeds the other.

            If the rules don’t seem fair for the little guy, why would the Fed and the banks care? The system works for them.

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            • #21
              Re: Banks Reopen Global Casino

              Originally posted by ASH View Post
              When reform has been accomplished, you need to manage the transition from being a demagogue to being the new political elite.
              What we are witnessing today in the world is the total collapse of democracy. Just as communism collapsed as an untenable political institution, so too will this time be noted as the death of the belief that the people will select the leaders most wise for the time.

              "you" is the operative word here. A demagogue, whether in the form of a dictator or a democratic political party, will not save us. A new political order must arise from this mess such than no specific clique or subculture is able to unduly influence the entirety of national policy.

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              • #22
                Re: Banks Reopen Global Casino

                Originally posted by rjwjr View Post
                Come on, you guys, we need to quit blaming "the rich". We all want to get "rich", don't we?! Let's quit whining and let's start discussing actual ideas for improving our own lot in life. Yes, there are some real crooks out in this world, but to engage in class warfare of "the rich" vs the poor is unproductive and misguided. From now on, everytime I run into a post that blames "the rich" I'm going to try to post these comments attributed to Abraham Linclon. Maybe, eventually, we'll stop whining and start having productive discussions rather than unproductive bitch sessions.

                Abraham Lincoln once said:
                • You cannot help the poor by destroying the rich.
                • You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong.
                • You cannot bring about prosperity by discouraging thrift.
                • You cannot lift the wage earner up by pulling the wage payer down.
                • You cannot further the brotherhood of man by inciting class hatred.
                • You cannot build character and courage by taking away men's initiative and independence.
                • [FONT='Arial','sans-serif']You cannot help men permanently by doing for them, what they could and should do for themselves.[/font]
                I dont blame the rich, I blame the government...

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                • #23
                  Re: Banks Reopen Global Casino

                  Originally posted by tsetsefly View Post
                  I dont blame the rich, I blame the government...
                  Looking for which party to blame is a fruitless activity. Blame applies when things might have worked out ok, except that one party did something they should not have done and could have done differently. In other words, to afix blame, you have to present an alternative scenario in which things work out ok, given only that the guilty (blamed) party acted in some other plausible but different manner.

                  When a complex system breaks down, as in this case, where several parties would have to acted quite differently and in ways quite unlikely given the usual limitations of us humans and their organizations, then looking for which single party to blame doesn't help understand the failure nor guide us to a remedy.
                  Most folks are good; a few aren't.

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                  • #24
                    Re: Banks Reopen Global Casino

                    Originally posted by rjwjr View Post

                    Abraham Lincoln once said:
                    • You cannot help the poor by destroying the rich.
                    • You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong.
                    • You cannot bring about prosperity by discouraging thrift.
                    • You cannot lift the wage earner up by pulling the wage payer down.
                    • You cannot further the brotherhood of man by inciting class hatred.
                    • You cannot build character and courage by taking away men's initiative and independence.
                    • You cannot help men permanently by doing for them, what they could and should do for themselves.

                    There are two issues:

                    1) Some of the rich are criminals. They should be punished severely. As Obama said, "We were on the verge of a complete financial meltdown, and the reason was that Wall Street took extraordinary risks with other people's money. They were peddling loans that they knew could never be repaid . . . and all of us are now paying the price."

                    2) 5% of the population controls almost 60% of the wealth and probably 95% of the power. This is not just . . . .

                    I agree with everything Lincoln said.
                    But he's not saying what you imply he's saying. For example, preventing fraud and changing the distribution of wealth is not "destroying the rich." I don't think we should strengthen the weak, but I think we should protect them from the rich parasites.

                    The rich control the society. They are to blame for allowing Wall Street criminals to get away with fraud. They are to blame for grabbing more than a fair share of the pie.

                    Yes, we should blame the rich.
                    Obviously not all rich people are evil . . . but the ones that are criminals, or those that stand by and let crimes occur that beggar the rest of the population, they should be blamed. That's pretty much all the rich.
                    raja
                    Boycott Big Banks • Vote Out Incumbents

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                    • #25
                      Re: Banks Reopen Global Casino

                      Originally posted by rjwjr View Post
                      Abraham Lincoln once said:
                      • You cannot bring about prosperity by discouraging thrift.
                      Lincoln never met Keynes, and Keynes obviously did not agree with Lincoln.

                      Our whole system for the past 30 years has been about discouraging thrift IMO; e.g., "we will spend/borrow our way to prosperity"

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                      • #26
                        Re: Banks Reopen Global Casino

                        Originally posted by rjwjr View Post
                        Come on, you guys, we need to quit blaming "the rich". We all want to get "rich", don't we?! Let's quit whining and let's start discussing actual ideas for improving our own lot in life. Yes, there are some real crooks out in this world, but to engage in class warfare of "the rich" vs the poor is unproductive and misguided. From now on, everytime I run into a post that blames "the rich" I'm going to try to post these comments attributed to Abraham Linclon. Maybe, eventually, we'll stop whining and start having productive discussions rather than unproductive bitch sessions.
                        Come on RJWJR, you're really getting tiresome with the 'rich are really okay' stuff. I think you know exactly what people are talking about here when they refer to the rich. They mean that top 1% or 5% who obtained or maintain their fortunes largely through manipulation of the system, whether it be via influencing the government, or via for example the insane salaries conferred upon top executives in big companies, especially on Wall Street, that are skimming the cream at the expense of the other stakeholders. As has been explained to you more than once, the negative application of the moniker 'rich' by 99% of iTulipers does refer to the innovative, hard-working, risk-taking entrepreneur who has created value and subsequently benefits from it by becoming 'rich'.

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                        • #27
                          Re: Banks Reopen Global Casino

                          The problem with those quotes by Lincoln is that Lincoln never said them..

                          Summary of the eRumor:
                          Alleged quotes from Abraham Lincoln about the poor, the weak, prosperity, workers, class hatred, and character.

                          The Truth:
                          These words are often attributed to Abraham Lincoln, but according to the book They Never Said it: A Book of Fake Quotes, Misquotes, & Misleading Attributions, they are not from Lincoln.

                          The quotes were published in 1942 by William J. H. Boetcker, a Presbyterian minister. He released a pamphlet titled Lincoln On Limitations, which did include a Lincoln quote, but also added 10 statements written by Boetcker himself.

                          They were:

                          1. You cannot bring about prosperity by discouraging thrift.
                          2. You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong
                          3. You cannot help the poor man by destroying the rich.
                          4. You cannot further the brotherhood of man by inciting class hatred.
                          5. You cannot build character and courage by taking away man's initiative and independence.
                          6. You cannot help small men by tearing down big men.
                          7. You cannot lift the wage earner by pulling down the wage payer.
                          8. You cannot keep out of trouble by spending more than your income.
                          9. You cannot establish security on borrowed money.
                          10 You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they will not do for themselves.
                          People who got the pamphlet thought the 10 statements were written by Lincoln and they have been distributed widely under Lincoln's name.



                          http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors...oln-quotes.htm

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: Banks Reopen Global Casino

                            Originally posted by ViC78 View Post
                            The problem with those quotes by Lincoln is that Lincoln never said them..

                            Summary of the eRumor:
                            Alleged quotes from Abraham Lincoln about the poor, the weak, prosperity, workers, class hatred, and character.




                            The Truth:
                            These words are often attributed to Abraham Lincoln, but according to the book They Never Said it: A Book of Fake Quotes, Misquotes, & Misleading Attributions, they are not from Lincoln.

                            The quotes were published in 1942 by William J. H. Boetcker, a Presbyterian minister. He released a pamphlet titled Lincoln On Limitations, which did include a Lincoln quote, but also added 10 statements written by Boetcker himself.

                            They were:

                            1. You cannot bring about prosperity by discouraging thrift.
                            2. You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong
                            3. You cannot help the poor man by destroying the rich.
                            4. You cannot further the brotherhood of man by inciting class hatred.
                            5. You cannot build character and courage by taking away man's initiative and independence.
                            6. You cannot help small men by tearing down big men.
                            7. You cannot lift the wage earner by pulling down the wage payer.
                            8. You cannot keep out of trouble by spending more than your income.
                            9. You cannot establish security on borrowed money.
                            10 You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they will not do for themselves.People who got the pamphlet thought the 10 statements were written by Lincoln and they have been distributed widely under Lincoln's name.





                            http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors...oln-quotes.htm

                            Interesting factoid. Thank you.

                            The truths and common sense contained in the quotes I would suggest stand on their own notwithstanding if Charles Manson said them.

                            Oh what Menken could have done with these...

                            You cannot help the poor man by destroying the rich, unless the poor man owes the rich man a whole lot of money


                            You cannot keep out of trouble by spending more than your income unless you can intimidate your friends to keep lending you money

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                            • #29
                              Re: Banks Reopen Global Casino

                              Originally posted by rjwjr View Post
                              Come on, you guys, we need to quit blaming "the rich". We all want to get "rich", don't we?!
                              :rolleyes:

                              Give us a little bit MORE credit than this. Of course we want to "get rich;" but we also like sleeping at night, so we try to be ethical about it.

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                              • #30
                                Re: Banks Reopen Global Casino

                                Originally posted by Godozo View Post
                                :rolleyes:

                                Give us a little bit MORE credit than this. Of course we want to "get rich;" but we also like sleeping at night, so we try to be ethical about it.
                                I'd rather be rich than have more credit.

                                Maybe I'll publish a book of quotes and misattribute them it Itulip members.

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