Chevy Volt.....Another LIE!

[flintlock]

Re: Chevy Volt.....Another LIE!

It's sad, but Toyota has this technology in spades over GM. Whoever said (in an earlier post) that Japan had learned not to do initial R&D was wrong. Comparatively speaking, they've done an excellent job at developing this tech. Maybe it's the USAs turn to steal from the Japanese and improve upon it!

I was speaking earlier about Japan learning to copy and improve technology in the car business, but I was talking about many years ago, like the 70s and 80s. They've since leaped ahead of the US in technology no doubt. My point was the US should do the same, as you mentioned.

The US seems to be losing its edge in technology and to some degree you can understand why. When China just takes our tech and copies it without paying for it, why should US companies continue to invest in technology only to have it stolen and used against them? Heck, its not always stolen. In many cases we give it away.

[ggirod]

Re: Chevy Volt.....Another LIE!

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkL
It's sad, but Toyota has this technology in spades over GM. Whoever said (in an earlier post) that Japan had learned not to do initial R&D was wrong. Comparatively speaking, they've done an excellent job at developing this tech. Maybe it's the USAs turn to steal from the Japanese and improve upon it!

I don't have the reference handy, but I read that the Volt is a pure hybrid; the engine does not drive the wheels (instead it charges the battery) while the rest of the popular hybrids are nothing more than electric assist. That is how GM can get some real mileage out of it. So, in fact, Toyota may need to follow from GM this time.

[Godozo]

Re: Chevy Volt.....Another LIE!

Currently I can buy a Focus for 15k. 18k left over, at today's prices that 6000 gallons of gas. That will go a long way.

And if you live a reasonable distance away from work (I'd say <10 miles from work along a reasonably safe route) and don't have to do Mr. Molloy's dress rules on the way (no business suit while on the bike), I'd say go with an electric bike. I do, and at 5 miles each way I'd say I'm presently saving $1.25 in gas costs every day (NW Indiana gas prices). Not much, but you save a lot of wear and tear on that Focus as well, leaving it for grocery shopping and long distance trips (where you'll get the 30+ MPG on the road).

[Starving Steve]

Re: Chevy Volt.....Another LIE!

Hi everyone,
I looked at the Camry hybrid and these are my observations/ the sales guy's comments

1) Hybrid camry was $5k+ more than a regular camry, everything else being the same
2) The trunk space was smaller in order to store those giant batteries. The trunk space was no bigger than an old Toyota Corolla
3) The highway mileage is identical between a hybrid and a regular camry
4) Only the city mileage is 9 mpg lower in a hybrid. A hybrid simply switches the engine from using gasoline to battery during traffic stops. The moment you press the accelerator, it switches back to gas giving you identical mpg.


thanks
analog2000

Thanks for the info on the real world experience of a hybrid Camry: "9 mpg lower city mileage than a regular Camry and no better mileage on the highway than a regular Camry."

And we all sadly learned what ethanol meant by our real world driving experiences: less mpg than regular gasoline, so the savings in cost per gallon for ethanol was more than wiped-out.

I just keep observing one lie after another with green tech. Now the real world experiences with the Chevy Volt will begin; I can't wait to read them.

[Godozo]

Re: Chevy Volt.....Another LIE!

I'm just interested in the current draw on the charge. What I'm getting at is how much is this going to impact the grid when a million cars come home and charge up all at once? I have no idea. Would it be similar to what a golf cart charger consumes? How long does it take to charge these cars? If these car chargers are pulling much current, I can tell you now that most home's garages will need an upgrade.

Not only that, but so would the electric grid. While I can see the charge being distributed over the night so that the pull isn't NEARLY as much, it would still need massive managing, either at the garage, neighborhood or grid level. And since I doubt that people would be willing to pay for the full upgrade (yes on the electric line, no to the timer) there'd have to be controls centrally placed so that the pull overall is managed.

And imagine the downtown parking ramps and suburban parking lots being wired for battery recharge....

[MarkL]

Re: Chevy Volt.....Another LIE!

I haven't owned, or even driven a Volt, so in truth, I have no basis from which to speak. However, we do know the Toyota products have been shipping for years, while we know the Volt is a version 1.0. That alone is enough to give Japan some recent claim to R&D leadership. Nevertheless, we really won't know how GM compares to Toyota or it all pans out until the Volt has actually shipped for 6 months at least, eh?

[GRG55]

Re: Chevy Volt.....Another LIE!

It's sad, but Toyota has this technology in spades over GM. Whoever said (in an earlier post) that Japan had learned not to do initial R&D was wrong. Comparatively speaking, they've done an excellent job at developing this tech. Maybe it's the USAs turn to steal from the Japanese and improve upon it!

You must be joking...[read on]

Quote:

I don't have the reference handy, but I read that the Volt is a pure hybrid; the engine does not drive the wheels (instead it charges the battery) while the rest of the popular hybrids are nothing more than electric assist. That is how GM can get some real mileage out of it. So, in fact, Toyota may need to follow from GM this time.

ggirod has it right.

It seems to have escaped the notice of all you Japan fans that Toyota's next generation Prius is going to be equipped with a 1.8 litre gasoline engine - that's a 300 cc bigger than my first car [which was also a four passenger sedan] and also 300 cc bigger than the current Prius engine. It would appear that it takes a lot of horsepower to move that battery pack around.

GM avoids the use of the term "hybrid" when referring to the Volt, preferring to call it an electric vehicle with a "range extender engine" [a 1.4 litre gasoline engine that drives a generator to charge the battery pack, unlike the Prius engine which supplies direct mechanical drive].

It remains to be seen if the Volt will "save" GM, or prove to be a 21st century version of the ill-fated J-car - which was also conceived under "crisis" circumstances.

Toyota is anticipating worldwide demand of 400,000 units of the Prius annually. I couldn't help but note that Toyota also announced worldwide sales of 3.56 million units in the first half of 2009; down 26% y-o-y. If we assume that Toyota sales remain at this depressed level, and Prius sales expand as forecast, the Prius will still make up less than 6% of Toyota's units sold.

There are stories circulating that GM intends to use the Volt technology in a cross-over SUV - but in order to maintain load carrying and tow capabilities comparable to its conventionally powered SUVs, GM plans to use a 3.5 litre 6-cyl as the range extender engine. What next? A diesel-electric locomotive .

My reaction to all this continues to be "What's the point?" EJ was right when he posted some time back that these things aren't real economy cars, and they aren't that ecologically friendly either. They're actually for people of means that want to be seen to be making an eco-statement to their neighbours and friends.

[flintlock]

Re: Chevy Volt.....Another LIE!

A diesel-electric locomotive

Now that's just crazy talk!

[Starving Steve]

Re: Chevy Volt.....Another LIE!

Now that's just crazy talk!

One of the best cars for fuel economy was the 1979 VW Rabbit diesel 5-speed manual transmission. But the problem with that car was the poor reliability and constant servicing required by Volkswagen.

The reliabilty issue and cost of servicing is why I would NEVER buy another European car: whatever the promises, whatever the write-ups in magazines, and whatever people say.

But the VW Rabbit did have absolutely superb fuel economy because the weight was as low as possible, and the diesel engine was small and fuel efficient.

The eco-nuts, the EPA in the USA, the Dept. of Energy under Obama, and that bunch might just look at the VW Rabbit-diesel and think about the future, maybe for once. Small diesels just might be in the future for automotive-engineering, even in North America.

An old idea that works well remains a good idea for the future.

[santafe2]

Re: Chevy Volt.....Another LIE!

I'm just interested in the current draw on the charge. What I'm getting at is how much is this going to impact the grid when a million cars come home and charge up all at once?

Flintlock, I don't have time to verify the inputs I've read in this thread but if we use the "8 hours to recharge" number and seanm123's 10 kWh per recharge one can assume a constant load of 1250 watts, about the same as using your microwave for 8 hours straight or turning on 12+ 100 watt incandescent light bulbs. Your concerns are valid. Setting a 10:00PM to 6:00AM charging window would help.

[hayekvindicated]

Re: Chevy Volt.....Another LIE!

You must be joking...[read on]



ggirod has it right.

It seems to have escaped the notice of all you Japan fans that Toyota's next generation Prius is going to be equipped with a 1.8 litre gasoline engine - that's a 300 cc bigger than my first car [which was also a four passenger sedan] and also 300 cc bigger than the current Prius engine. It would appear that it takes a lot of horsepower to move that battery pack around.

GM avoids the use of the term "hybrid" when referring to the Volt, preferring to call it an electric vehicle with a "range extender engine" [a 1.4 litre gasoline engine that drives a generator to charge the battery pack, unlike the Prius engine which supplies direct mechanical drive].

It remains to be seen if the Volt will "save" GM, or prove to be a 21st century version of the ill-fated J-car - which was also conceived under "crisis" circumstances.

Toyota is anticipating worldwide demand of 400,000 units of the Prius annually. I couldn't help but note that Toyota also announced worldwide sales of 3.56 million units in the first half of 2009; down 26% y-o-y. If we assume that Toyota sales remain at this depressed level, and Prius sales expand as forecast, the Prius will still make up less than 6% of Toyota's units sold.

There are stories circulating that GM intends to use the Volt technology in a cross-over SUV - but in order to maintain load carrying and tow capabilities comparable to its conventionally powered SUVs, GM plans to use a 3.5 litre 6-cyl as the range extender engine. What next? A diesel-electric locomotive .

My reaction to all this continues to be "What's the point?" EJ was right when he posted some time back that these things aren't real economy cars, and they aren't that ecologically friendly either. They're actually for people of means that want to be seen to be making an eco-statement to their neighbours and friends.

If people want to limit emissions and drive fuel efficient cars, there is a simpler way - why not simply buy and drive smaller cars? During the 1980s, my dad had a 800cc Maruti Suzuki - the Maruti is an Indian legend. It was basically a JV between Suzuki and the Indian government.

The 800cc Maruti did 18-20 Kilomteres per litre (that's 47 mpg). Unlike the VW that Steve mentioned, this was not an unreliable car that broke down constantly. In fact, many Indian buyers were initially sceptical of how well it would perform on Indian roads (which are some of the worst on the planet). And yet, the car was a roaring success. It actually seated four people and you could carry some luggage too.

That's the only way to reduce emissions. Driving Hybrid 4X4s with 6 cylinder engines is not the way to do it. But that of course underscores the whole point about contemporary liberals - its about vanity and trying to look morally superior. Its about being with the "it" crowd, its about being politically correct. The environment is a nice fashion accessory that shows you're politically correct - the man who typified this best was the slimy Tony Blair. Everything was spin, spin and more spin. So while the Brits lectured the world on reducing carbon dioxide emissions, under Blair, Britain's carbon dioxide emissions actually increased significantly. But hey, who cares about facts? If you can stand before the camera and get some nice photo ops with semi starved African kids and lecture the world on morality, no one will touch you.

The US equivalent of that phenomenon was Bill Clinton.

[flintlock]

Re: Chevy Volt.....Another LIE!

Small diesels are the future. People here just haven't figured that out yet.

[GRG55]

Re: Chevy Volt.....Another LIE!

Flintlock, I don't have time to verify the inputs I've read in this thread but if we use the "8 hours to recharge" number and seanm123's 10 kWh per recharge one can assume a constant load of 1250 watts, about the same as using your microwave for 8 hours straight or turning on 12+ 100 watt incandescent light bulbs. Your concerns are valid. Setting a 10:00PM to 6:00AM charging window would help.

What happens if there's no volts for the Volt?

Ya gotta love the way this article starts out. Professional journalism and fuzzy-headed California politics at its finest...:rolleyes:

S.F. makes deal to close dirty power plant


Robert Selna, Chronicle Staff Writer
Friday, August 14, 2009

SAN FRANCISCO -- The heavily polluting power plant on San Francisco's southeastern waterfront would close by the end of next year under a legal settlement announced Thursday between Mirant Corp. and City Attorney Dennis Herrera.

The 40-year-old fossil-fuel plant, which officials say is one of the dirtiest in the state, spews particles and chemicals from a bayside smokestack. Its cooling system, which sucks in millions of gallons of bay water per day, kills fish larvae and discharges heated water into San Francisco Bay...

...It is not yet certain, however, if state energy officials will allow it to be closed...

...a potentially much bigger hurdle for closing the plant is the California Independent System Operator.

The ISO ensures that cities have reliable energy supplies that can withstand power line failures and other emergencies.

The agency has demanded that San Francisco have some power generation within city limits...

...Herrera said the city would present a formal plan to the ISO in the coming months but did not commit to a date...

[flintlock]

Re: Chevy Volt.....Another LIE!

I can just tell you from my personal experience. The average person sees a 120v outlet and thinks he can plug in the Empire State building as long as he has enough extension cords. I hope they do draw a big load like that. I call that 'Job security".

For those of you not aware, in almost every case, the single outlet you have in your garage is on a 15 amp circuit along with other outlets throughout your home. If the car charging requires 10 amps, you can forget running that beer fridge out in the garage off the same outlet.

[GRG55]

Re: Chevy Volt.....Another LIE!

I can just tell you from my personal experience. The average person sees a 120v outlet and thinks he can plug in the Empire State building as long as he has enough extension cords. I hope they do draw a big load like that. I call that 'Job security".

For those of you not aware, in almost every case, the single outlet you have in your garage is on a 15 amp circuit along with other outlets throughout your home. If the car charging requires 10 amps, you can forget running that beer fridge out in the garage off the same outlet.

Yep. Sounds familiar.


The "average person" these days not only expects the lights and the air conditioner to go on when they flick the switch, but they also want:

• no nukes;
• no filthy coal burning power stations;
• no fish-killing hydro projects;
• no windmills blocking their views;
• no unsightly solar panels on the neighbours house across the street...