Those Who "Give Up"

[flintlock]

Re: Those Who "Give Up"

"Interviews with seven early members of the group found that many had been forced to drastically change their lifestyles to cope with lower incomes. Several have struggled with long bouts of unemployment. Some were laid off several times. Many have been forced to lean heavily on spouses’ incomes."

I guess I'm becoming more callous because this article doesn't pull at my heart strings. My reaction is "so what?"...deal with it, get up the next morning, do the best you can do, make the decisions you need to make, take the actions you need to take, repeat. It's called life. Sure, it's unfortunate that they're not having the kind of success, currently, that they'd like to have or that is considered the "norm", but what are we supposed to do...extend unemployment benefits forever?, create government make-work jobs to replace their income?, give them food stamps and health care and subsidized housing/debt relief, and on and on?

We need to have faith that the free-market will sort-out this economic chaos, and after some tough times for many people for awhile, we'll come-out on the other side as a stronger, healthier country and peoples. In the meantime, we'll be forced to get back to neighbor (church, family, charities, even LOCAL government) helping neighbor, not the inefficient, corrupt machinations of federal government as our savior via spending and higher taxes. Now would be a great time to slash the size of the federal government, not make it larger and more powerful.

Wish it was all that simple. The world is WAY more complex than what you wrote above.

Someone who didn't know better might translate what you said above to

" Screw the common people in America, I got mine baby! Why can't everyone be smart and good looking like me?"

Now I know that's not what you meant, but see how stupid it sounds when you take something and oversimplify it?

[rjwjr]

Re: Those Who "Give Up"

Wish it was all that simple. The world is WAY more complex than what you wrote above.

Someone who didn't know better might translate what you said above to

" Screw the common people in America, I got mine baby! Why can't everyone be smart and good looking like me?"

Now I know that's not what you meant, but see how stupid it sounds when you take something and oversimplify it?

To your first point...As it relates to wages paid to US workers vs wages paid to Chinese and Indonesian workers, it is that simple. The jobs are going to those that can perform effectively the same work at a much lower price. Look at Mexico; our jobs go there, but the workers come here. If China and Indonesia were border Countries, their workers would walk here too. Our wages are too high for the global marketplace. At least we are more competitive than France, Germany, and others as far as wages and overall labor cost to business.

To your second point...I'm not saying "screw the common people in America" cause I got mine, I'm saying the general laborers (and to an increasing degree, a la India, the skilled careers) are in danger of further outsourcing of those jobs simply because they are being paid more than someone of equal ability is willing to take in compensation for that job. It has nothing to do with how good looking I am (an idiotic and juvenile comment by the way), it has everything to do with global competition and the fact that a US autoworker, as only one example, can not expect to make $75,000+ for putting the front left tire on a Ford F-150 when a Chinese worker will do that same job for $5,000 per year. This doesn't only happen by jobs being moved by US companies to foreign lands (Mexico, China, Indonesia), it occurs when cheap imorts make our US industries uncompetitive. We Americans love the cheap goods, but hate the job loss. We can't have it both ways. Attempts to "level the playing field" via import tariffs, etc., will result in higher prices for all Americans at best and will not stop the flow of jobs at worst. The only solution is an equalization of wages through time. Mexico, China, Indonesia, et al will eventually catch-up to the US and the US will suffer some level of declining wages and lost jobs until said equalization is reached.

To your 3rd point...It only sounds stupid when you "reword" it in such a way that puts words in to my mouth such that it changes the meaning of my argument. I stand by my original opinion and the additional detail provided in this post.

[rjwjr]

Re: Those Who "Give Up"

It is not entirely a statement of fact either, though, that Americans are overpaid. All you have to do is look at the abusive labor conditions, the utter lack of intellectual property laws, and horribly polluted environments in those countries to see where a good portion of their cost savings come from.

Agreed, but it doesn't change the fact that US workers receive much greater compensation at the manual labor level than do workers in many other Countries, and for basically the identical output in speed and quality. Your points will simply serve to add unnecesarry complexity to this main point without diminishing the validity of the main point.

[dugg]

Re: Those Who "Give Up"

Agreed, but it doesn't change the fact that US workers receive much greater compensation at the manual labor level than do workers in many other Countries, and for basically the identical output in speed and quality. Your points will simply serve to add unnecesarry complexity to this main point without diminishing the validity of the main point.

blah..blah..blah I'm lost in this drivel. First rule of ruling>ye must share. and when you don't; you get the dogs com'n after ya. The poor will forever exist in any society, just ask the One. It's the middle class, those who worked their arses off to make this country what it is. Those who saved and did not free load off the system. Those that went to war, those who have built infra-structure and those who support this ologarchy! As these ologarks stop sharing the booty (too greedy) they will find V knocking at the door. Look for Vendetta to come soon! In the mean time, let them eat cake.

[don]

Re: Those Who "Give Up"

In a country run by a financial oligarchy, that has spent 30 years shipping out its industry, most of the work force isn’t needed. Those running that system are called Neo-Liberals. Another word is Sociopaths.

[flintlock]

Re: Those Who "Give Up"

To your first point...As it relates to wages paid to US workers vs wages paid to Chinese and Indonesian workers, it is that simple. The jobs are going to those that can perform effectively the same work at a much lower price. Look at Mexico; our jobs go there, but the workers come here. If China and Indonesia were border Countries, their workers would walk here too. Our wages are too high for the global marketplace. At least we are more competitive than France, Germany, and others as far as wages and overall labor cost to business.

To your second point...I'm not saying "screw the common people in America" cause I got mine, I'm saying the general laborers (and to an increasing degree, a la India, the skilled careers) are in danger of further outsourcing of those jobs simply because they are being paid more than someone of equal ability is willing to take in compensation for that job. It has nothing to do with how good looking I am (an idiotic and juvenile comment by the way), it has everything to do with global competition and the fact that a US autoworker, as only one example, can not expect to make $75,000+ for putting the front left tire on a Ford F-150 when a Chinese worker will do that same job for $5,000 per year. This doesn't only happen by jobs being moved by US companies to foreign lands (Mexico, China, Indonesia), it occurs when cheap imorts make our US industries uncompetitive. We Americans love the cheap goods, but hate the job loss. We can't have it both ways. Attempts to "level the playing field" via import tariffs, etc., will result in higher prices for all Americans at best and will not stop the flow of jobs at worst. The only solution is an equalization of wages through time. Mexico, China, Indonesia, et al will eventually catch-up to the US and the US will suffer some level of declining wages and lost jobs until said equalization is reached.

To your 3rd point...It only sounds stupid when you "reword" it in such a way that puts words in to my mouth such that it changes the meaning of my argument. I stand by my original opinion and the additional detail provided in this post.

The part about being "good looking" was supposed to be humorous. Sorry, forgot the smiley.

I agree with a lot of what you say on these forums, but sometimes you come off as the poster boy for Republican Hubris.

Do you not consider yourself a US "worker"? I think anyone who has a job is a worker, regardless of class, education, etc. Where's your loyalty to your fellow Americans? Or do you just see them all as scum? You are under the mistaken impression that every job being lost in the US is low level grunt work. Even if it was it doesn't make it right. But the fact is a lot of IT professionals and others have found out the hard way that the considerable skills they have are not irreplaceable. Even physicians have been impacted. You are like a lot of Americans, you think you may be so high up the ladder that it won't affect you. And that may be true. But what about your kids? Your friends? Your grandchildren? Don't lie and say if a foreign replacement came in a took over your business( or whatever you do) that you would just shrug it off and move to Botswana and start over. :rolleyes: Or start mopping floors at Walmart.

I agree some US workers are overpaid, but that is a tiny minority and I think you know it. Unions are almost non existent. Do you really think most American blue collar workers make $30+ hour??? Get out much? You really want to use that example to justify screwing over millions of Americans who work hard every day?

You seem to have been taken in by a lot of Republican propaganda. I'm a conservative, but I'm smart enough to realize something ain't right here. They play up the patriotism and pro-America stuff then on the other hand say, "Too bad, but we found a guy in India to do your job. But don't go on welfare to feed your family, because that's bad too. Oh, and the government is going to give us a bailout to buy new factories in third world countries. Sorry. " Then they bitch about the taxes they have to pay in order pay for all this!!!:eek:

Its shortsighted. Or maybe you just think we need a world without borders?:rolleyes:

I'm not against foreign labor being used here when there is a real need. Its a complicated issue. But what I'm sick of is Republicans complaining about "deadbeats" who mooch off the system when their own policies helped put them on the dole. You either provide people with a purposeful job that allows them some dignity or they will become an anchor tied around your neck forever. They are not going to just disappear like they do in your mind.

[govtraksam]

Re: Those Who "Give Up"

Lurker is totally correct. It appears that people won't wake up to what the politicians and their handlers have done to our country until they have lost everything. The job outsourcing is working its way up the food chain. At some point, but probably not until a complete economic collapse, business will finally realize that every time they eliminate a job they eliminate some one's customer. Eventually there are no customers left.

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: Those Who "Give Up"

I agree with a lot of what you say on these forums, but sometimes you come off as the poster boy for Republican Hubris.

Do you not consider yourself a US "worker"? I think anyone who has a job is a worker, regardless of class, education, etc. Where's your loyalty to your fellow Americans? Or do you just see them all as scum? You are under the mistaken impression that every job being lost in the US is low level grunt work. Even if it was it doesn't make it right. But the fact is a lot of IT professionals and others have found out the hard way that the considerable skills they have are not irreplaceable. Even physicians have been impacted. You are like a lot of Americans, you think you may be so high up the ladder that it won't affect you. And that may be true. But what about your kids? Your friends? Your grandchildren? Don't lie and say if a foreign replacement came in a took over your business( or whatever you do) that you would just shrug it off and move to Botswana and start over. :rolleyes: Or start mopping floors at Walmart.

I agree some US workers are overpaid, but that is a tiny minority and I think you know it. Unions are almost non existent. Do you really think most American blue collar workers make $30+ hour??? Get out much? You really want to use that example to justify screwing over millions of Americans who work hard every day?

You seem to have been taken in by a lot of Republican propaganda. I'm a conservative, but I'm smart enough to realize something ain't right here. They play up the patriotism and pro-America stuff then on the other hand say, "Too bad, but we found a guy in India to do your job. But don't go on welfare to feed your family, because that's bad too. Oh, and the government is going to give us a bailout to buy new factories in third world countries. Sorry. " Then they bitch about the taxes they have to pay in order pay for all this!!!:eek:

Its shortsighted. Or maybe you just think we need a world without borders?:rolleyes:

I'm not against foreign labor being used here when there is a real need. Its a complicated issue. But what I'm sick of is Republicans complaining about "deadbeats" who mooch off the system when their own policies helped put them on the dole. You either provide people with a purposeful job that allows them some dignity or they will become an anchor tied around your neck forever. They are not going to just disappear like they do in your mind.

There is some sort of disconnect in this thread.

What rjwjr writes make good sense to me.

I was a very nicely paid IT worker. Several years ago, working in Silicon Valley, I could see that the combination of global communications and computers, along with a global transportation system powered by tankers full of cheap oil, were combining to globalize the world economy.

I recall perhaps five years ago noticing that some of the programmers who were working side by side with me, of equal caliber and value in all respects (perhaps more valuable) were coming from far away corners of the world and earning perhaps a fifth or a tenth of what I was working.

I could see at the time that such discrepancy could not last. Those two salaries, one perhaps 8X the other, were going to meet somewhere hopefully a little above the bottom value. The lower paid chap would get a raise, and if the company paying me didn't cut my salary to perhaps one-fifth what it was, they would go bankrupt. They did indeed go bankrupt, a few months after I resigned anyway.

My next job might well be mopping the floors at Wal*Mart, if the combination of my savings and retirement money aren't quite enough. Eh -- details. Life is good. Sure, I'd gladly trade in that cheap ten year old econobox I drive now for the big new shiny BMW sedan I drove before (BMW makes some sweet engines), but only if the life I chose to live allowed me the luxury of once again affording such a fine vehicle with ease.

Anyway, back to your response. I simply do not see what you see in rjwjr's reply.

• He states that "the general laborers (and to an increasing degree, a la India, the skilled careers) are in danger of further outsourcing of those jobs".
• You claim he stated "You are under the mistaken impression that every job being lost in the US is low level grunt work"

Huh? Where did rjwjr say just "low level grunt work?" He stated quite the contrary "to an increasing degree the skilled careers."

Indeed, if anything, it is you yourself flintlock stating much the same thing, just a couple of sentences later, when you state "I agree some US workers are overpaid, but that is a tiny minority."

This is not about who is a good hard working person or who is mooching off society on either welfare or excess salary (whether due to union featherbedding or Goldman Sachs thievery.) All large groups of people will have their hard workers and their lazy bums; their smarter ones and their dumber ones; the clueless and the highly skilled.

Globalization was a major trend over the last couple of centuries. From what I read we are coming off the second peak in globalization, as measured by the percentage of world GDP that is earned on trade crossing national borders. The first peak, about as high as this one, occurred just before World War I. The coal fired steam engine, powering trains and ships, opened up Europe to the agricultural heartland of America.

I cannot entirely deny that this present reply of mine is motivated by "Republican hubris", for two reasons. Part of me remains an arrogant Republican, so there is always the risk I am guilty of such thinking. Also I for the life of me do not understand why you would label rjwjr as a possible poster boy for "Republican hubris", so I cannot refute what I do not even comprehend.

What I suspect, however, is this. I suspect that it is you, flintlock, not rjwjr, who is in denial as to the pervasiveness of globalization. rjwjr is saying it's here -- eh so what -- deal with it. You are (I guess) saying globalization is just affecting a few other people's jobs -- but not the jobs of good hard working, productive, well educated people (such as flintlock and his friends?). So you are concluding that anyone (such as rjwjr) who claims that globalization is more pervasive is quite likely the poster boy for angry ranting and raving Republicans, insulting most well paid Americans.

My guess is that either you're in serious denial and quite misreading rjwjr, or else this cow is too confused to find food even when standing in the middle of a field of clover. I'm betting that you're projecting your fears of lower pay on those evil "Republicans" flintlock.

===

And now for a more positive contribution:

One of the consequences of the "end of peak cheap oil" and of the substantial collapse of the global credit bubble is a lowering of globalization. As noted in the decline of the Baltic Dry Index (BDI) and the many suggestions to focus on more local commerce (such as more local food supplies), globalization has peaked for a second time, from what was I believe a level (proportion of world GDP that is international trade) similar to what it reached before World War I.

• Business activity that depends on cheap transportation (peak oil) and/or substantial credit (FIRE industries for example) will recede, in favor of more local, self-funding equivalents.
• Business activity that depends on world wide communications (twitter from the streets of Tehran) and that does not require substantial energy or huge credit funding to sustain will continue, even blossom further.

ITulip will blossom while the automobile and FIRE industries wilt.

[World Traveler]

Re: Those Who "Give Up"

I have to say that I agree with most of what Flintlock said.

Most of the folks who say that "over-paid Americans (i.e., the majority) just need to accept their future lot of lower wages and competing with the third world for jobs":

1. don't envision themselves as part of that motley lot, because of their talent, riches, family connections, etc., they figure they'll be exempt

2. don't truly see what an America dominated by low-wage competition with the China and India will look like.

It ain't pretty, because the newly impoverished don't physically disappear, they are still American citizens who mostly have to live here because while globalization allows free movement of goods and capital, not so for people.

Take a look at Latin America for what the U.S.'s future could look like. Majority there work at low-wage jobs that provide subsistence and little else, very high unemployment rates, high levels of crime and violence, and political instability. I've been to Latin America many times and speak Spanish, I've talked to these folks and they know they're being screwed by their country's wealthy elite. They vacillate between anger/(i.e. revolution) and apathy/ (i.e. resentment, crime).

The "chosen ones" think they'll be exempt from the problems a future low-wage U.S., but they will not be. We still live in a world of nation states, where borders and citizenship matters. The world's political machinery has not been globalized.

The low-wage, poor citizens within those borders can cause all kinds of problems for the moneyed classes. High crime, kidnappings for cash and ransom, fear of even getting in a taxi because the driver may pull a gun and rob you. Private guards needed to protect the streets in well-to-do neighborhoods...but can you truly trust them, they may be part of a gang..., etc. etc. I saw and heard about it all in Latin America.

That's not the future I want for the U.S. I vastly prefer the European or Japanese model, where there is much greater attempt to ensure equality and decent wages for workers in all professions. Note that Western Europe and Japan have no where near the crime and murder rates of the U.S. and Latin America , because of the greater income equality that breeds greater social cohesion.

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: Those Who "Give Up"

I have to say that I agree with most of what Flintlock said.

So if I understand rjwjr is saying "globalization is here, work with it", flintlock is pissed at the loss of jobs and income caused in the name of socialization (and at Republicans duplicitous efforts to justify globalization), and you're saying globalization leads to the societal rot you see in Latin America, rather than the healthier societies one sees in Europe or Japan?

Is that roughly right?

True to my Republican roots, I would respond to your preference for the socialism of Europe and Japan with:

"Socialism is great until you run out of someone else’s money."

— Margaret Thatcher

Or, putting on my capitalist hat, I would note that what's needed are healthy capital markets where there is incentive to make ongoing substantial investments in further productivity improvements, rather than empty skyscrapers, bridges to nowhere and tracts of McMansions.

Global arbitrage of wages, resources and production is here. The only alternative is isolation, which is no alternative. What we lack is a healthy way of organizing this global economic activity in a way that supports ongoing economic productivity and the freedom and well being of individuals.

Globalization is no more nor less the cause of the social ills in Latin America than it is of the socialism you prefer in Europe or Japan.

[Master Shake]

Re: Those Who "Give Up"

Lurker is totally correct. It appears that people won't wake up to what the politicians and their handlers have done to our country until they have lost everything. The job outsourcing is working its way up the food chain. At some point, but probably not until a complete economic collapse, business will finally realize that every time they eliminate a job they eliminate some one's customer. Eventually there are no customers left.

Not only do you need to worry about job outsourcing, those same politicians have permitted a flood of illegals to enter the country and take jobs within.

What's going on is nothing less than a form of national economic suicide.

[Quincy K]

Re: Those Who "Give Up"

Down here in Mexico, the hourly wage for a WalMart employee is $2.10(at a historical exchange rate of 10.50/1) with no benefits. Minimum wage in the US is $7.25. I see absolutely, positively no difference in job proficiency between the two when I frequent a Walmart.

By and large, US employees are grossly overpaid and most especially within the UAW. It is real simple for UAW employees and any of you guys that are reading this blog.

"If you don't like your fuc_ing job and its related pay and benefits quit and find another. It's called capitalism."

I could give a rat's a_s about the UAW and their "concessions" and most of the people here probably feel the same.

[Rantly McTirade]

Re: Those Who "Give Up"

Economics and business are not the only parts of life.

Globalization is bad for the vast majority of people in all countries and should be done only sparingly; it should be rolled back substantially from
current levels. Those in advanced countries who seem to have a permanent woody for this perverted concept, should be 'encouraged'(;))
to give up their citizenship in advanced countries, move to whatever third
world megalopolis they've rhapsodied over and experience globalisms' joys first hand by starting over from ground level there. There will, of course, be an exit tax levied-your current shirt may be retained. Of course, since the biggest pimps of the flat world nonsense are private sector bureaucrats(i.e., top managers of large transnational businesses) and various ideological scribblers and mouthpieces, none of whom have skills of real value(as bullshitting, backslapping and backstabbing fall in the general realm of useless politicking), their literal demise is pretty much assured.

[mcgurme]

Re: Those Who "Give Up"

There's another issue that hasn't been raised here. The countries that are exporting cheap labor have frequently implemented their own highly protectionist policies to spur their internal industries. Don't believe it? Just do some historical research on how Toyota became the global powerhouse that it is. It wasn't due to anything close to "free trade"; the Japanese were highly protectionist, and still are. China is protectionist to a lesser extent (mostly through yuan manipulation).

These are political considerations that impact directly upon American workers. The free-market ideologues here make it sound as if declining labor rates are solely the result of free and open flow across borders as the ultimate arbiters. That is not remotely true. There has been a free and open flow of immigrants and goods into the US since the 90's; but there has not been a corresponding free and open flow out of the US into other countries. And in many cases, that is for political reasons. This situation has greatly benefited the elite/oligarchy, and some of the politicians in their pockets, but not anyone else. The rest of us have suffered declining real wages and/or increasing debt.

Ask yourself why a Chinese worker makes 1/10th the salary of an American one. A part of that is the Yuan's undervaluation and manipulation by the Chinese. A second part of that is there are no worker's protections in China. I've been to factories of assembly line workers there. They are often not allowed to sleep. And they certainly are not allowed to form a union. Are the free marketers really implying that we should return to the lowest common denominator, of having kids in factories, black skies, and frequent worker deaths of our industrial era? That was good for the Rockefellers and their pals, but not for many others. Don't believe me? Visit Bejing sometime. Many people have to wear masks just to walk around because the air is so bad.

The world is not a level playing field, and never will be. Only in a fantasy land do all countries have equal social/political/economic conditions that would allow a true global "free market" to work. We can either sink to the lowest common denominator, or set the bar higher. About 100 years ago, we chose to set the bar higher, and as a result, this became one of the greatest nations on the planet. But that status has been steadily squandered in the past 30 years by the combination of FIRE marketing (convincing Americans they could live the good life on credit) and this free market ideology that has killed our industries and sent our jobs overseas. It has been a 1-2 punch.

Someone here implied that the Europeans, due to their "socialist" ways, also pay people too much. If that's the case, why is Germany still an exporting country? Their labor is expensive, but they still manage to export goods to the world.

Don't mistake the above for government apologism; it is not. It is realism: we, as a somewhat functioning democracy, have the choice. Do we continue sinking to the lowest common denominator, to end up like the folks in China who live in large dormitories and work 20 hours a day? Or do we give up on the free trade myth and actually get some industry going here again in the US, which would create real (non-FIRE) jobs? Is there a third way? I don't see it.

[Quincy K]

Re: Those Who "Give Up"

Average pay for GM(US) employees, with benefits, was around $75.00/hour as opposed to Toyota(US) being around $45.00/hour.

That's right. $75.00 an hour for people without a college education performing basic tasks with little risk to health or livelihood.

And I can guarantee that Toyota's $45/hour would be far less if it weren't for the extortion wages enforced by the UAW indirectly affecting other like industries and wage scales.

Sorry, but these auto workers are "worth" no more than $15/hour with moderate benefits. Come to think of it, that is the amount that's currently being offered to new entry-level auto workers.

And there are thousands and thousands of people waiting in line for these jobs right now and in all probability with more qualifications than GM's current workforce.

You are only "worth" what the market is wiling to pay. Some Americans realize this, accept it and try to evolve.

And some Americans end up videotaping themselves on public TV, beating up toy cars with an axe and a baseball bat, while simultaneoulsy spewing out facts and figures in an attempt to justify their intelligence level.

And believe it or not, some Americans actually revere such individuals.