Those Who "Give Up"

[Serge_Tomiko]

Re: Those Who "Give Up"

I guess I'm becoming more callous because this article doesn't pull at my heart strings. My reaction is "so what?"...deal with it, get up the next morning, do the best you can do, make the decisions you need to make, take the actions you need to take, repeat. It's called life.

I won't bother educating you as to how the free market is anything but free or that freedom itself is simply a social construct of the ruling elite.

The primary issue is some people will "deal with it" in ways you don't like. Here in Manhattan, the number of beggars has increased 10 fold in the past few months. I expect crime in general will increase soon as well.

In the long term, there is always the possibility of social breakdown outside of vagrancy and petty crime, such as insurrection.

It doesn't matter what your moral justification is for a particular system of society. If it fails to provide a sufficient number of people with the things they want, they will ultimately work to undermine that system or deliberately destroy it. I am as far from a bleeding heart liberal as you can get, but in these dangerous times - you cannot legitimately hold such a callous opinion.

[don]

Re: Those Who "Give Up"

you cannot legitimately hold such a callous opinion.

...without consequences.

[rjwjr]

Re: Those Who "Give Up"

What free market would that be ?

Wall St forces your company to offshore your job. Free movement of capital means it will continue to move around the globe in search of the country with the least pay and conditions for its workers.

So should American workers pack up and move to China, Indonesia, etc etc

Free trade is only for the big boys. Little folk aren't allowed free anything. There's no level playing field and hence no free market. It's rigged.

It's not Wall Street or big business that is to blame. If a Chinese or Indonesian worker is able to produce the same product as an American worker for less money then the business of making said product (and the jobs) will move to China and Indonesia. Such is a global market. Eventually (longer than most displaced Americans care to wait) those societies and markets will equalize and the wage disparity will not be as great. In the meantime, it's bad for American workers, but happy days for Chinese and Indonesian workers. We can't have US auto workers making $75,000+ per year and expect to remain competitive in a global market place. That's not a social observation, it is a fact. US wages got well ahead of global norms...great while it lasted, but also the cause of the eventual and inevitable outsourcing of those jobs. That's simply part of the creative destruction of the free market system and a process that will sort itself out over time. There is no one to blame for the loss of those jobs except for those that allowed the wages in those jobs to become uncompetitive in the first place (unions, management, the workers themselves). Today they are all living with those consequences, but let's not forget the many decades they were being well overpaid* in wages, benefits, and pensions.

* And "overpaid" is not my opinion or a subjective opinion here, it is determined by the free market and by what other like-skilled individuals are willing to take in compensation for doing this same work. These are not slaves in China and Indonesia, these are people just like us working to improve their own lives.

[World Traveler]

Re: Those Who "Give Up"

A favorite saying in the 1980's was "a liberal is someone who hasn't been mugged yet".

Based on events since 2007, we now know that "a free-marketer conservative is someone that hasn't experienced economic hard times and potential bankruptcy yet".

Wall Street banks were all free-marketers until they faced bankruptcy, then they willing accepted taxpayer-subsidized aid from the government as their lifeline. Sometimes openly, as in TARP, sometimes hidden, as in Federal Reserve cash for trash swaps. That's what called socialism.

[Milton Kuo]

Re: Those Who "Give Up"

* And "overpaid" is not my opinion or a subjective opinion here, it is determined by the free market and by what other like-skilled individuals are willing to take in compensation for doing this same work. These are not slaves in China and Indonesia, these are people just like us working to improve their own lives.

It is not entirely a statement of fact either, though, that Americans are overpaid. All you have to do is look at the abusive labor conditions, the utter lack of intellectual property laws, and horribly polluted environments in those countries to see where a good portion of their cost savings come from.

[metalman]

Re: Those Who "Give Up"

I won't bother educating you as to how the free market is anything but free or that freedom itself is simply a social construct of the ruling elite.

The primary issue is some people will "deal with it" in ways you don't like. Here in Manhattan, the number of beggars has increased 10 fold in the past few months. I expect crime in general will increase soon as well.

In the long term, there is always the possibility of social breakdown outside of vagrancy and petty crime, such as insurrection.

It doesn't matter what your moral justification is for a particular system of society. If it fails to provide a sufficient number of people with the things they want, they will ultimately work to undermine that system or deliberately destroy it. I am as far from a bleeding heart liberal as you can get, but in these dangerous times - you cannot legitimately hold such a callous opinion.

learned about ambrose bierce here 10 yrs ago... hooked every since.

he's got this topic down in his devil's dictionary...

FREEDOM, n. Exemption from the stress of authority in a beggarly half dozen of restraint's infinite multitude of methods. A political condition that every nation supposes itself to enjoy in virtual monopoly. Liberty. The distinction between freedom and liberty is not accurately known; naturalists have never been able to find a living specimen of either.

and...

LIBERTY, n. One of Imagination's most precious possessions.

and...

JUSTICE: A commodity which in a more or less adulterated condition the State sells to the citizen as a reward for his allegiance, taxes and personal service.

[don]

Re: Those Who "Give Up"

"The taxpayers will pick up the bill, and greed will not be penalized. Losses, in effect, will be socialized for the sake of those who are against socialism."

Gabriel Kolko, The Financial Crisis, in World in Crisis p.22)

[don]

Re: Those Who "Give Up"

A great reference, M-Man, Bierce, a man of the Gilded Age, would have had little trouble segueing to our morass. Ambrose...Ambrose...can you hear me, way down south in old Mexico.

[metalman]

Re: Those Who "Give Up"

A great reference, M-Man, Bierce, a man of the Gilded Age, would have had little trouble segueing to our morass. Ambrose...Ambrose...can you hear me, way down south in old Mexico.

yep... got fed up and left... went south & never heard from again. left behind a real treasure, he did.

[don]

Re: Those Who "Give Up"

yep... got fed up and left... went south & never heard from again. left behind a real treasure, he did.

And then there's B. Traven....

[bpr]

Re: Those Who "Give Up"

It's not Wall Street or big business that is to blame. If a Chinese or Indonesian worker is able to produce the same product as an American worker for less money then the business of making said product (and the jobs) will move to China and Indonesia. Such is a global market. Eventually (longer than most displaced Americans care to wait) those societies and markets will equalize and the wage disparity will not be as great. In the meantime, it's bad for American workers, but happy days for Chinese and Indonesian workers. We can't have US auto workers making $75,000+ per year and expect to remain competitive in a global market place. That's not a social observation, it is a fact. US wages got well ahead of global norms...great while it lasted, but also the cause of the eventual and inevitable outsourcing of those jobs. That's simply part of the creative destruction of the free market system and a process that will sort itself out over time. There is no one to blame for the loss of those jobs except for those that allowed the wages in those jobs to become uncompetitive in the first place (unions, management, the workers themselves). Today they are all living with those consequences, but let's not forget the many decades they were being well overpaid* in wages, benefits, and pensions.

* And "overpaid" is not my opinion or a subjective opinion here, it is determined by the free market and by what other like-skilled individuals are willing to take in compensation for doing this same work. These are not slaves in China and Indonesia, these are people just like us working to improve their own lives.

It's not your opinion, but your conviction that's troubling here.

IIRC, the $75,000 auto worker was actually a cost to the employer, including benefits, taxes and insurance, not a wage.

There is no doubt that Wall Street is not to blame, but our government is. The government makes the rules, and Wall Street uses them to its advantage.

You must admit that it's simplistic to say that Americans are overpaid when real wages have fallen steadily for the past 40 years. It may be possible that Postwar America experienced a kind of worker's irrational exuberance that led to legacy costs that were unsustainable over the long term, but that is the work of historians, and we are just looking for someone to blame and a way to fix it.

I tend to think that it's the result of governments intervening in the currency markets, particularly actions like the Plaza Accord and the current fixing of the yuan. This kind of intervention creates an opportunity for businesses and entrepreneurs capable of making large fast adjustments, while simultaneously neutering wage earners.

[Serge_Tomiko]

Re: Those Who "Give Up"

There is no doubt that Wall Street is not to blame, but our government is. The government makes the rules, and Wall Street uses them to its advantage.

As Oswald Spengler famously elucidated, democracy always leads to plutocracy. Wall Street buys the government. The two are intimately entwined. Certainly, the present "rules" in many cases lack any sound basis and can only be explained as corruption.

[Serge_Tomiko]

Re: Those Who "Give Up"

learned about ambrose bierce here 10 yrs ago... hooked every since.

he's got this topic down in his devil's dictionary...



and...


and...

Ha, that is great stuff! I had never known of that site before. Thank you.

update: I've always considered myself a learned man. I feel most ignorant for having never known of this fine fellow or his work.

[lurker]

Re: Those Who "Give Up"

Based on events since 2007, we now know that "a free-marketer conservative is someone that hasn't experienced economic hard times and potential bankruptcy yet".
.

Isn't that the truth !

[don]

Re: Those Who "Give Up"

"Libertarian, n. One who is compelled by the evidence to believe in free-will, and whose will is therefore free to reject that doctrine."

AB, The Unabridged Devil's Dictionary edited by David Schutlz & S.J. Joshi, the latter a Bierce maven.